Forensic evidence

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, Sep 21, 2006.

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  1. sue

    sue Member

    I think once they got to the point of the CNN interview, they knew that there was enough 'garbage' thrown into the situation to have a jury find reasonable doubt if either of them were ever put to trial. So, unless one of them confesses, they both got away with murder.

    The few times I've seen him since Patsy's death, he looks even more like the cat that ate the canary. Her death made him even more safe.
    Since he was part of the 'purchase' when his company was bought by Lockheed, they may not have done any testing on him.
     
  2. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    Ever heard the expression, two people can keep a secret, and that's if one of them is dead?
     
  3. sue

    sue Member

    very true
     
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Many years ago, there was a newspaper article, maybe from a Colorado news org., not sure, that stated that John Ramsey had been asked to take a polygraph by LM or GE, can't remember which, and he refused. The article either stated or implied that this was when he was let go.

    I don't have it, no. But I read it, back in my early days online when I had no idea I needed to capture everything for posterity because it would one day disappear from online sites. I even remember being shocked when I realized that many of those old articles were being taken offline.

    Maybe Why Nut or ACR or WY or some of those who have been around since the very beginning online remember this.
     
  5. EasyWriter

    EasyWriter FFJ Senior Member

    No problem.

    “Hi EW,
    I gave the poster on the other forum (who is adamant about the
    wrist ligatures being so-called Tautline Hitch knots) a link to
    your analysis of the ligatures and garrote on the ACR site.
    He/she replied:
    Quote:

    ‘Dr England says,"Having only a single-angle picture to look at,
    I can't say with certainty exactly how the knot was formed"’

    Where’s the context of this quote? What does is say? In any loop
    created by a slipping knot, especially with small, soft cord,
    there is always the option of going over and under, or under and
    over. In a photo of tight knotting, sometimes it is difficult to
    tell the exact start of the routing. This does not mean I don’t
    know how the knot was formed; just some obscurity dealing with
    the initial start. However, it is relatively immaterial since the
    physics of the knot function are the same.

    “First, let's look at the cord around the neck and the knot.
    Having only a single-angle picture to look at, I can't say with
    certainty exactly how the knot was formed, so this is a little
    iffy, but not much. From what I do see and don't see, I think my
    conclusions are fundamentally correct.

    One end of a rather long cord is passed under the throat and
    around the neck. This end is then passed over and under the other
    part of the cord after it encircles the neck. It is then passed
    over and under itself, then over once more and through the space
    created by the first over and under; then pulled tight to close
    the knot and leave a small compressed slip loop created by the
    action.†(From “garrote†analysis)

    As you can see, the quote was separated from its context in the
    middle of a sentence with the remainder of the relevant context
    omitted as well. Gee, the full context makes quite a difference
    doesn’t it?

    “He does not talk about the knots used in the hand restraints.â€

    Say what? Not only have I talked about these “ligaturesâ€, in
    numerous posts numerous times, I have given detailed description
    of how they were formed, including details of the how and why of
    the amateurish blunders.

    “You haven't proven to me that the hand restraints didn't use a
    Tautline Hitch knot.â€

    In the first place, there were no restraints; only an amateurish
    feeble and failing attempt to bind. In tying a tautline hitch,
    after the rope is brought around the post, the rope is then
    looped around itself, then wrapped around itself twice on the
    inside to make the loop - then it is brought outside of the loop
    and finished with a single slip knot around the tie line going
    away. In other words, with a tautline hitch, you wind up with two
    turns inside the loop and one turn outside with the rope clamped
    between the other two turns due to the slip knot finish.

    It’s somewhat of a delicate operation. To function properly, the
    turns must be squared with each other. Also, if finished too
    loosely, it will come apart. If finished too tightly, the heavy
    friction make movement very difficult. With this construction,
    even if done to perfection, it works best by holding the knot
    while slipping to reduce the size of the loop. Furthermore, the
    type of material is a big factor. Even though I consider it a
    poor hitch, it will work with large and stiff rope such as one
    half inch or larger Manila. As for a rolling (tautline) hitch
    with a small, soft cord, (especially flat, or near flat)forget
    it.

    The was no tautline hitch at the crime scene. There were only
    slip knots to create loops. All turns are inside the loop with
    each creating a slip knot. There is no two non knotting turns
    inside and one slip knot outside. The crime scene constructions
    do not appear in any knot book because they are contradictions
    with this material. A loop created with intent to slip to reduce
    loop size, then prohibited from slipping by compression upon
    itself is clear evidence of ignorance of material and
    construction. As stated above, a slipknot with large and fairly
    stiff rope will work in some measure, but a slipknot around a
    soft flat cord creating flanges via compression will not.

    If you look at the junction of the large wrist “ligatureâ€, you
    can see the compression and flanges. I have no doubt the
    perpetrator routed the cord with the intent of pulling if down to
    the wrist. However, the perpetrator succeeded only in compressing
    the cord upon itself preventing further movement, thereby,
    preventing the loop from going down to the wrist.

    Once this knot is made in the soft flat cord, the only way you
    are going to get it loose is with a sharp object such as icepick
    to get under the knot. It was left as is. When John said tied
    tightly, he lied. The large loop fell off. When John said he
    tried to untie the knot, he lied again. Look at the photo of the
    “ligature†around the wrist over the sleeve before it was
    removed. Now look at the same “ligature†after removal. Before
    removal, it shows the cord twice around itself in a slip knot
    form. After removal, the photo show only once around itself, but
    what looks a bit like a half bow that wasn’t there before. What
    happened? The cord was routed and left so loose that it distorted
    in removing. In other words, fell apart. One loop so large, it
    fell off. The other so loose it came apart at the touch. Had John
    made any pass at the loose “ligatureâ€, it would not have been
    intact for the coroner’s photo. As I said, John lied. What’s new?
    (What really galls is that so many “investigators†and
    “interrogators†let him get away with it without challenge.)

    “To me, those hand restraints don't even look as if tied with the
    same type of knot.â€

    Actually, they are. The difference is that the one over the
    sleeve was never pulled to create the knot. In fact, the knot in
    the cord around the neck was fundamentally the same as the knot
    in the large loop; which is why it did not slip during post
    mortem bloat, thereby creating a furrow all the way around the
    neck. A circumferential furrow does not happen with an angular
    pull, nor with an adjustable loop that would move away during the
    post mortem bloat. In spite of this irrefutable evidence, some
    still believe the loop around the neck was tightened by pulling
    the stick tied on the end of the string AFTER the cord was tied
    around the neck in a non slip fashion.

    “And btw, the BPD hired a rope expert, Van Tassell, to analyze
    the knots to see if the way they were tied pointed to specific
    skills on the part of the perp. But Van Tassell never came
    forward and said, e. g. "this is a so-called Tautline Hitch knot
    used for sailing and camping." So he obviously could not identify
    these knots as being in any way professionally done.â€

    I’m not sure that Van Tassel can tie his own shoelace. :) I never
    talked to Van Tassel, but I did correspond with someone who did.
    (An official investigator in the case.) Without going into detail
    of the correspondence, suffice it to say, this person did not get
    anything from Van Tassel to help him understand this evidence.
     
  6. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    EasyWriter: thank you so much for your detailed reply re the wrist ligatures not being so-called Tautline Hitch knots. I provided your info to the (frequent) poster on the other board, but so far have received no reply, which imo speaks volumes: for if this person, who was so adamant about the wrist knots being 'Tautline Hitch knots' actually knew a lot about ropes and knots, you bet he/she would have tried to refute what you said. But as we say in German: "No answer is an answer too ..."
    But at least Van Tassell was able to identify the cord as being the same type of cord which Steve Thomas had bought for $ 2.29 in the sporting goods section of McGuckin's, as well as at the Army supply store (ST's book, p. 234):

    "Coghlan's cord", a soft nylon, fifty-foot length of white Stansport 32-strand, 3/16-inch woven cord.

    And on Dec 2, 1996, Patsy Ramsey purchased an item from the McGuckin's sporting goods section which cost $2.29 ...


    If I could ask Steve Thomas three questions, one of them would be: "did you ask Van Tassel about the type of knots too"?
    [The other two:
    "how was JB dressed and how was her hair done at the Whites' party?" (for surely Thomas as the lead detective must have seen these pictures).

    "Why do you think John Ramsey had nothing whatsoever to do with JB's death despite the fact that fibers from his shirt were found in the crotch area of JB's size 12 panties?"]

    But back to the cord:
    Although it obviously had been bought in the sporting goods section, this doesn't necessarily mean that it was used only for sporting purposes.
    Patsy did a lot of decorating in the home, and the cord might have come in handy there too.
    Then there's this picture (scroll down to the # 83 post in the link, which shows a picture of JB in a blue dress), in which the piping on JB's dress resembles the cord. Maybe it was bought for sewing purposes?

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7887&page=7&pp=12

    Another question, EasyWriter: in the right autopsy picture in the link, there is a circular mark around JB's neck below where the cord is tied.
    I'd be interested in your theory: how do you think that mark got there?
     
  7. BluesStrat

    BluesStrat BANNED !!!!!

    Nylon isn't used much in garments anymore. Nylon is effected by the chemicals in the dry cleaning process. It also melts when hit with a hot steam iron. Piping cord is usually 100% pre-shrunk cotton.
     
  8. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    piping

    Piping used in dress making also usually has a flat side that is the part actually sewn into the seam. It would be very hard to use a cord that didn't have an area to sew onto. Just from my experience with sewing - which I have done a fair amount of.
     
  9. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Thanks Texan and BluesStrat for this info. It is much appreciated by someone like me who has always had two left hands in terms of sewing :).
    I think your info definitely rules out that the cord was bought for sewing purposes.
     
  10. EasyWriter

    EasyWriter FFJ Senior Member

    “But at least Van Tassell was able to identify the cord as being
    the same type of cord which Steve Thomas had bought for $ 2.29 in
    the sporting goods section of McGuckin's, as well as at the Army
    supply store (ST's book, p. 234): (from post)

    "Coghlan's cord", a soft nylon, fifty-foot length of white
    Stansport 32-strand, 3/16-inch woven cord.


    And on Dec 2, 1996, Patsy Ramsey purchased an item from the
    McGuckin's sporting goods section which cost $2.29 ...†(from
    post)


    I have a big problem with this. “3\16-inch woven cord†- the 3\16
    refers to diameter - which is the measurement of a round cord.
    Yet, “We asked if he was certain, and the Mountie studied it some
    more. Sure looks like soft nylon, he said, as he examined what
    looked like a soft flat white shoelace. Not stiff and rigid like
    polypropylene.†(From Steve’s book)

    “...soft nylon....looked like a flat shoelace†“FLAT†This means
    two diameters (X by Y)} If it’s 3\16, which direction is it
    measured? What’s the measurement of the other direction? I don’t
    know what happened here, but it just won’t add up. I have bought
    hundreds of yard of nylon from 1\16 to 1\2 inch in hardware
    and\or sporting goods stores, etc. Never have I bought or seen
    any flat nylon like this in any of then; nor could I find any
    such thing via an extensive research online. As I said, I don’t
    know what happened here, but until and unless someone explains,
    not for a minute do I believe that cord came from a hardware
    store.

    "Why do you think John Ramsey had nothing whatsoever to do with
    JB's death despite the fact that fibers from his shirt were found
    in the crotch area of JB's size 12 panties?" (Ibid)

    By participating in the staging, thereby, coming in contact with
    elements of the staging.

    “But back to the cord:
    Although it obviously had been bought in the sporting goods
    section, this doesn't necessarily mean that it was used only for
    sporting purposes.â€( ibid)

    See above.

    Patsy did a lot of decorating in the home, and the cord might
    have come in handy there too.
    Then there's this picture (scroll down to the # 83 post in the
    link, which shows a picture of JB in a blue dress), in which
    the piping on JB's dress resembles the cord. Maybe it was bought
    for sewing purposes?

    Bought for sewing purposes is my guess, but not from a hardware
    store.

    “I retrieved one sample package, a fifty-foot length of white
    Stansport 32-strand, 3/16-inch woven cord that I had bought. Van
    Tassell pulled the cord out, frayed an end, held it against the
    end of the neck ligature, and said, "Look." The soft white braid
    and inner weave appeared identical. "I think this is the same
    cord," he said.†(From Steve’s book)

    I think Van Tassel had better look again. In one place, it is
    stated the cord is flat. In another, it’s stated as 3\16
    diameter, which goes to round cord. The frazzled end (going all
    directions) may look the same, but from round to flat requires a
    different weave.

    Not from his book, nor from email correspondence with Steve did I
    get even a hint that Van Tassel understood, let alone tried to
    explain the cord\knot situation. I believe if he had, Steve would
    have mentioned in his book since he did comment on Van Tassel’s
    feeble input - which was in error.

    “Another question, EasyWriter: in the right autopsy picture in
    the link, there is a circular mark around JB's neck below
    where the cord is tied.
    I'd be interested in your theory: how do you think that mark got
    there?[/QUOTE] (from post)

    I have little, if any, doubt about this. In the attempt to tie
    closely and tightly, hands slipping off and\or the cord being
    moved in the process is quite probable. This would shift the
    position of the cord during said process. I would not have been
    surprised to find two or threes marks made before the cord came
    to its final resting place.
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    Easywriter and rashomon,

    This wasn't a blue dress JonBenét had with the white flat trim. It was a navy blue jacket, and with Patsy besotted with the Mother and daughter look alike period, both mother and daughter had similar navy blue jackets with white piping around the lapels. This photograph is on the back of the hardback "Death of Innocence" book.

    Whether, or not, the white trim on JonBenét's navy jacket, goes all the way down to the bottom of the buttoned side of the jacket, I cannot tell you by this photograph, but it certainly looks like a DIY job done by someone who didn't have a clue how to sew this trim on properly. It's not even, and very badly sewn. Almost looks like half the lapel is missing.

    The cord trim on JonBenét's jacket does look different from the cord on Patsy's. Cord on Patsy's is much flatter, while the cord on JonBenét's lapels is much narrower. It doesn't look the flat cord sewn on both sides of JB's lapels. It looks like a narrow round cord, not sewn on to the back of the lapel, but just to the front.

    The cord on Patsy's lapels to me, are an exact match to the garotte cord.
    Whether Patsy trimmed this jacket herself is unknown (?). Flat sports shoe laces have also been mentioned on the boards. My husband's shoe size is a 9.1/2" and he has 40" shoe laces for his sport shoes.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    This is the jacket Patsy Ramsey wore when she went on CNN, sending Steve Thomas a message that she could wear the same clothes twice, because she had worn this very jacket to her interview with him just recently.
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    I have seen cord trim sewn around lapels in a few different ways. Narrow single cord sewn on the very edge of the lapels. Flat cord sewn into the seams. Broad cord sewn front and back of the lapels. If you can enlarge JonBenét's photo, look very closely at JonBenét's lapels, the one which looks as if half of it is missing, you can actually see, part of the cord trim which has frayed and crosses over the bottom part.
     
  14. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    hhhmmm

    I think the 3\16ths is the width of the cord. The 3\16 doesn't have to be diameter - it could just be width. Mabe the thickness isn't on the description of the cord. I wouldn't need that dimension if I were buying it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2006
  15. Elle

    Elle Member

    The garotte cord looks like Patsy's trim, Texan. I think we can forget about JonBenét's trim, but who knows if Patsy bought the cord trim, and had it done, or bought the actual jacket complete with trim. It's hard to say, and no information has ever been given out on this.
     
  16. sue

    sue Member

    The trim on Patsy's jacket is probably about 1 inch flat cording. When you look at it in relation to the size of her neck, it's way too big.
    The trim on JB's jacket is much smaller and when you look at it compared to her neck, it appears to b e much closer to the size of the 'garrote' cord.
     
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    The trim on JonBenét's jacket is not flat cord. The garotte is flat cord, not round. Too narrow.

    One doesn't usually see trim as broad as one inch around lapels. I've never seen it. Would look ghastly, but whose arguing? :) What's the size of her neck got to do with the trim around the lapel, Sue?
     
  18. BluesStrat

    BluesStrat BANNED !!!!!

    I've never seen cord sewn directly onto the edge of any garment. As far as I know, piping is always wrapped with cloth and then sewn into the seam on the edge of the lapel.

    Anyway, I've never read anywhere that Patsy was into sewing and/or making her own (or JB's) clothes. Even if she was, I doubt she would be buying sewing cord in the Sporting Goods section of a hardware store.
     
  19. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    simplicity

    The cleanest theory would be the that cord is just cord. It is really cool to think about alternatives to it's source but I don't believe much in coincidences - although occasionally they occur- but mostly things are as they seem. I think the cord is the kind that ST hunted down. The item PR probably bought at McGuckin's hardware.
    Where the rest of the cord is would be a good question. Due to confusion and disruption of the crime scene, any Ramsey could have removed the remainder. I don't think their clothes or PR's purse were searched. There is a theory that it was in JR's golf bag, but I gotta hope LE looked in that bag.
    The cord could be left over from some other project. The rest of the cord could have been used in a manner that would use all of it up. If that were true, then maybe it was all that was left in the house and there is no more to look for in the house.
    Some idea of the amount of cord missing could be estimated by adding up the amount of cord approximately used in the garrotte and the wrist ties and subtracting that amount from 50 feet. That would be quite a bit left, I think. That estimation has probably already been done.
    One thing that bothers me is why an intruder would remove the remainder of the cord. It would be a piece of evidence that could connect them to the crime if it was found on them or their property. However, someone inexperienced in crime and attempting to stage might believe a perp would take away any possible evidence. They could also think, and rightly so, that LE would see that there was no cord laying around their house so it couldn't have been anyone in the house that did it. Seems to have worked somehow.
    This is all speculation, of course.
     
  20. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    You can either cover the cord with a strip of fabric and then insert the raw edges into the seam or you can obtain special cord which has a little flattened flap already attached. This allows you to use speciality cords. A third method is to hand stitch the cord to the edge of the garment/item. This is obviously time consuming but again it allows you to use speciality cords.

    The cord on Jonbenet's little jacket was just white. I think it would be the second type above and therefore not the cord which was used in her murder.
     
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