Patsy Ramsey

Oh, that is BEAUTIFUL, Cherokee! I wonder if the BPD did anything like this, so long ago and far away....

 

::shocked2

 

Too late, Paradox! Amber got her tassles going and he never even noticed when I gently removed the remote control from his fist as they carried him out the door on the stretcher. I'll have the TV all to myself while he's in intensive care. :jumpie:

Now that's a pretty darn awesome comparison, Cherokee.

Cleej, I believe the movie that John said he only watched with the sound off was Speed. Remember the "Don't try to grow a brain" line? I think that's why they questioned him about Speed, and he, like Patsy, apparently has strange behavior for watching films--when it applies to any evidence in the case, anyway. But good try. I can't remember that much info with the Ramseys on the record about movies . Maybe they talk about it in DOI, but I'll have to go back to find it. Unless ACR has it in her index on DOI. She probably does.

OK, back from the Holy Temple of ACR--oh, I love that woman!

Here are the book pages for "movies" in DOI. I'll check them out as I can, but please feel free, anyone...ANYONE...to give it a whirl yourself! :gottarun:

 

ROFL!

The tassles get them every time Mind you, hubby is getting wise to it now, so I'll have to think of something else

 

KK,
What a great job you've done. Now I must rent Ransom and watch it again. It's been a few years since I saw the movie and I need to refamiliarize myself with it.

Cherokee,
Interesting to say the least. Thanks for posting the 2 together.

 

thanks for the correction KK

You're absolutely right KK. I found it here:

ACR: J. Ramsey '98 Interview Page 7

Mike Kane: "Ah you never saw the movie 'Ransom' then either before or after? How about some of the other ones (muffled) we talked about, how about 'Speed'"

John Ramsey: "I watched 'Speed'" on an airplane airliner without the headphone and, if you ever watched that movie wihout the sound it's the stupidest movie you ever can imagine. I mean this bus drives through the whole movie (muffled) so yeah I seen it but with the sound."

Mike Kane: "Before or since?"

John Ramsey: "Before, it was, whenever it was out, it was on one of the airlines."

 

Big Mistake On My Part

That is supposed to read "without the sound". Sorry everyone.

 

I totally disagree. It was JONBENET who was the dutiful daughter...trained and conditioned to be constantly on display. JonBenet was the one who didn't know who she was and had no clue about her inner self.

Patsy, otoh, had it all. As mentioned in other posts, she lived in a tony town in WV, graduated from WVU, was Miss WV and in the Miss America pageant, married the rich, older man and got whatever she wanted. For some people this might be a problem, but again, Patsy's roots were in WV, and there aren't too many tony towns with two-parent households. WV, especially going back to the '50s and '60s was quite a different place than it is today. Back then, looking at the Paughs, locals would think of it as the "rich and famous!"

Because of their "position", the Paughs had it all and there was no reason to be "dutiful". Make that, spoiled rotten getting whatever those girls wanted in life. And what they wanted was a ticket out of WV, which is exactly why both Patsy and Pam went for the pageants, and Nedra was right there with them. It was Patsy who wanted to be on display...that WAS her inner self. And it was her ticket out of WV....and she collected. Got that ticket and moved to Georgia and met Johnny. The rest is history.

As far as JonBenet goes, it was Patsy who was conditioning JonBenet to be constantly on display. As a matter of fact, Patsy came right out and told JonBenet on many occasions that she was on display. Remember the episode where JB was cold and wanted to put on a sweater and Mommy Dearest told her no, she was on display!

JonBenet didn't know who she was because she was controlled by Patsy.

jmho

 

I hate to jump to another movie in the middle of talking about Ransom, which I haven't gotten back to yet--sorry, but last night I saw the movie The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie again. I had to watch it again because Paradox talks about it so much, and I think I see some of what Paradox is trying to say.

Paradox, what I kept going back and forth about is WHICH CHARACTER do you think Patsy identified with, Miss Brodie or Sandy? I can't remember which monologue Patsy used in her teens in competition from the movie, but I kept thinking, Patsy was a teen, wouldn't she identify with the Sandy character, the teen who "assassinated" Miss Brodie at the end? Then I'd think, but if Patsy identified with Miss Brodie, especially when she was older, turning 40, would she think of JonBenet as the "assassin" if JonBenet was groomed to be the "lover" in Patsy's place, hence ending up sexually abused, possibly threatening to "tell" like children are now taught in schools very early?

Then there is the theme of Miss Brodie's, of the glory of sacrificing oneself for the greater good, being a brave heroine who dies for a "noble cause," which becomes the motivation for Sandy to turn Miss Brodie in to the school board for her "bad influence."

I think there is a farily recent thread on this that I didn't get to read, so I can look for that to find the answers to these questions. At any rate, one has to wonder if these give us clues to influences in Patsy's life that might lead to an understanding of what led up to the murder and the cover-up.

 

I think Patsy was influenced by various characters; Rose: sex, cinema, instinct, lover, Eunice: Ariel, Sandy recitation, insight, spy, psychology, Jenny: actress, Brodie: art, narcissism.

I think subconsciously Patsy identified with Sandy. She tried to break away from the narcissist Brodie. I think this parallels Patsy's urge to individuation from the influence of Nedra who I think was a narcissist.

Linda McLean said Patsy was all about the team spirit. Brodie was against it. All I know about Patsy's rewrite is that it was supposed to be about "censorship".

If we knew which scene Patsy did choose and if we had a script of the re-write we might have quite a window into Patsy' mind and maybe even a major clue to the crime.

Typical of narcissists, Brodie had an inverted idea of nobility and self sacrifice. Brodie has been described as the sacrificial object, Sandy the betrayer who denies betrayal and who joins the ultimate team; the Catholic Church.

Brodie had to be a negative figure for Patsy and getting an internal growth had to cause a bothersome identification for her. I think Patsy's disidentification from her mother was aborted early on and lived out through the play and movie. Patsy repeatedly performed the soliloquey to display her need. This served as a substitute recognition mechanism, something her mother could not provide. This wasn't satisfying so she got the ultimate recognition from the ultimate parental figure; God, by sending her daughter to him and pronouncing she too would soon join her.

Unfortunately, a complete analysis of TPOMJB would have to include The Psalms.

 

The only thing I've read about the scene she performed was in an article in the RMN 8/17/97 by Lisa Ryckman, 'Are They Innocent?' It is at the realsundancekid site. Based on a scene from the play TPOMJB. Snip: "Deadline" based on a local textbook controversy, featuring a journalist with traditional ideas and a young innovative school teacher, that expressed Patsy's views about press freedom and censorship. I haven't read the play yet, so I'm not sure which scene this is.

 

The question is what one means by 'dutiful' daughter. For it was Nedra Paugh who was totally obsessed with pageants (see Steve Thomas' book), and it was she who put her daughter Patsy in them.

And Patsy seems to have taken over just where Nedra left off. Nedra told Judith Phillips (= poster Cookie who took the 'salute' picture) (PMPT pb., p. 249):

"Well, Judith, we're just getting Jon Benet into a few pageants ."
"Why would you do something like that?"
"You know, she's not too young to get started."
"And what if JonBenet isn't willing" I asked. "What if she says, I'm not going to do it? How would you respond to that"
"Oh Judith, we would never consider her saying no. We would tell JonBenet, "You must do it. You will be Miss Pageant."

It was sort of eerie. A litte scary. The inevitability of it - from grandmother to mother and now to daughter.

This makes it clear just how pushy Nedra was. If Nedra was that pushy with her granddaughter JonBenet, I suppose she had been every bit as pushy with her own daughter Patsy.
We are getting JB into pageants, Nedra told Judith Phillips. Very telling, the "we". For again you have the mother-daughter unit between Nedra and Patsy.

You wrote that JonBenet didn't know who she was because she was controlled by her mother Patsy, which imo hits it dead center.
But I also think that Patsy didn't know who she was because she had been controlled by her mother Nedra.

Steve Thomas' mentions in his book that Patsy spent $ 30,000 on a single Gone With the Wind luncheon party in Atlanta.

 

When John asked Patsy to marry him she said "I don't know, I'll have to ask my mother."

 

That one escaped me, Paradox. Doesn't this say it all about Nedra Paugh?

 

Yes, and Patsy too. When a girl is raised by a narcissistic mother, the girl's psychological center rests with the mother, not in her own psyche. When faced with a choice, the girl will consult a list of memorized decisions implanted in her memory by the mother, if not consult the actual person. This is due to a lack of ego development, the ego being the center of one's consciousness. The result is a centerless person that revolves around the narcissist.

Muriel Spark does a masterfull job of describing this type of personality disorder in her character Jean Brodie.

A healthy parent will serve as the center, or part of it with other parents and family members, for a young child, but will also encourage a child to answer their own inner calling and find a direction in life based on the inner inspiration. This is a basic problem for all parents; nesting vs flight encouragement. But for a pathological narcissist the nest is very big, they want a child to fly in it, thus validating the parent as center.

This takes a lot of energy. If a narcissist has several children, their influences declines with the younger in line. You can see this pattern in Patsy, Pam and then Polly. Polly did not go into pageants, she has less personality problems than Pam.

Patsy dated late, usually older boys. She married an older man. She was not sexually motivated. She was described as an automaton. She was an over the top over achiever in many pursuits. When asked to contribute to projects she would over take them. She wore showy clothing. All of these things point to a lack of ego development.

 

OK, back to Ransom.

I watched it through last night, and I can't tell you how many times my jaw hit the floor when I related it to the Ramseys and the murder.

I wish I had time to break it down from start to finish, but some of the other things that astonished me:

In another kidnap call, late in the movie, the kidnapper and the father were hollaring at each other, and the father said something very close to what John said in his Jan. 1, 1997 TV appearance. The father told the kidnapper he'd hunt him down for the rest of his days. He said he'd hire the best private investigators in the world to find him. Remember John saying that he would dedicate the rest of his life to finding the killer? (Remember all the references to WORLD-CLASS INVESTIGATORS John never tired of bragging about? Then we finally found out, under oath, when years of those WORLD-CLASS investigators NOT finding any intruder begged the question WHY NOT, John said they weren't investigating the case, were only hired by his lawyers TO WORK ON THE RAMSEYS' DEFENCE. Ha. Somehow, we already knew that, didn't we? But there was John, admitting it before he could figure out that was WORSE. But I digress....)

--The father, whose name was Tom Mullen, told the FBI agent working on getting the child back that he/Tom had in fact paid off a union mobster to stop a machinist union strike because he had thousands of employees, customers, etc., and he didn't have time for a machinists' strike. Tom said he had built his company from scratch, not just stepped into it like other airline CEOs, and NOBODY was going to TAKE THAT AWAY FROM HIM. I kept thinking about JonBenet being molested by SOMEONE prior to that night, and what if she threatened to tell? I kept thinking about John telling Larry King that JonBenet had been a HANDFUL. I kept thinking about how the Ramseys so seldom ever spoke about her, about her suffering, about what she lost. I kept thinking about what would have happened if JonBenet had told someone, like a school teacher or nurse, who was molesting her. If it was John, that would have been quite a threat to that little empire John had built from scratch, wouldn't it?

--Also, in the movie there were so many people in the house after the parents called the FBI about the kidnapping. Some were employees of the father, some were FBI agents, but it was a lot of people. That reminded me about Patsy calling all those friends over to surround them, since they didn't call the FBI.

I know relating what happened in the murder of JonBenet to a movie is pure speculation, so let me say that clearly. It could have nothing at all to do with her murder or the staging afterwards. But watching this movie, comparing the Ramsey ransom note with the ransom call in the movie, as well as the characters and plot to what actually happened in the Ramsey murder, noting that JAR saw the similarities of the families himself immediately, knowing the movie was playing in Boulder...one has to wonder.

 

Etch it in stone, movies were a factor. I can't wait for Patsy's epitaph.

 

I must see this movie again. I will probably look at it from a different perspective with your input.

 

Very interesting post, Paradox.
There is evidence that JB had been the victim of prior sexual abuse. Do you think it is possibe that Patsy was JB's sexual abuser?