McCann Case Still Unsolved?

I think this is one of the mistakes we all make as amateur sleuths strolling through our local information smorgasbord. We tend to treat information we agree with (without much more that our personal opinion) as good, and that which we disagree with (without much more that our personal opinion) as bad.

I know that I let my personal opinion (which is not so high) of the McCanns influence the stories I like, but that doesn't mean that the stories have no foundation, which I also realize.

All in all though, the one known fact is that a little girl is still missing. It's not the sniffer dog's fault, it's not the Portuguese police fault, and it is a fact that there is a low number of persons to chose from who are responsible for this. There were five people staying in that apartment we know of. It's not Madeleine or her siblings fault, so that leaves the possibility of two known and (at least) one unknown. Madeleine was much too young to be responsible for her own safety, as were her siblings. I don't see why it's unreasonable at all for her parents to be under suspicion.

Do I think they did something to their daughter? I have no idea, but even if it's proven that they didn't I'm angry at them for leaving her so vulnerable.

It's amazing to me that they could be so casual about being in a foreign country where they only knew a select few of the ?hundreds? of people around and leave their children (that includes every parent in that group) alone even if it was just for 20-30 minutes. IMO it was selfish and self-centered to not arrange for at least one adult to "miss out" on one evening to remain in charge of safety. It's amazing to me that even after they became aware that little Madeleine had been crying for them the night before, they still opted to both go out for dinner, leaving her to face the same sadness again. It's amazing to me that only one couple had the foresight to take a baby monitor with them to dinner. So yes, IMO they are a selfish self-centered group. It's not like they were at a backyard BBQ. I also know that being self-centered and selfish does not equal physically harming your child.

I know I posted before that if they were a blue collar couple who went across the street to the local bar several nights in a row and left their children alone they would be in jail. I don't see where being Dr.s gives them a pass. In fact, IMO that makes is even worse.

So do I feel sorry for the McCanns? No. I feel sorry for Madeleine and I have sympathy for all those who put their careers on the line and who logged hundreds, maybe thousands of hours in search of this baby only to have their abilities smeared by a vengeful, "how dare you suspect Dr.s of this" British media and public.

The sorrow of all of this is that they are no closer to bringing Madeleine home no matter how much money they dumped into that system, no matter how many media outlets have been threatened, no matter now many flyers they post, no matter how much the Portuguese citizens are vilified (how can they honestly be shocked that the Portuguese people don't like them??!!), and no matter how they try to hide from the fact that they left her alone to fend for herself, Madeleine's fate is still a mystery.

For that reason I have little sympathy for the McCanns, but I have tons of sympathy for Madeleine and will forever hope that little girl is safely returned home.

Little

 

Thank you, Little!

Little,

I could cry reading this excellent post. This is exactly how I feel too. You are very brave to be so honest especially when we have come through the fires of posting on this thread before, and one of the reasons why I did not continue to post on it. I don't need to say any more, do I? You have said it all for me, and like you, I do hope little Madeleine McCann will some day be reunited with her parents if she is still alive(?).

 

I don't know if you are referring to my opinion of the dog handler in the McCann video, but if you are, then I can state unequivocably that my opinion of whether the McCanns are guilty, or not, has nothing to do with the obvious bias of the handler in targeting the McCann car.

I am not on any "side" of the McCann case. I do not have strong feelings one way or the other. I, personally, would not have left my young children to go eat as the McCanns did. I'm sure in hindsight, they would not do it again, but it does not make them automatically guilty of Maddie's murder (as some believe). I do not know if the McCanns are innocent of her death or not, but I do know that it would have been nearly impossible for them to have killed her (accidentally or otherwise) AND disposed of the body within the time frame established, AND with no witnesses to see them.

I said all that to say this ... I am not biased one way, or the other, in favor of the McCanns, or against them. Therefore, my viewing of the video is based on no preconceived idea of their guilt or innocence. I was not swayed by any opinion other than what I know of dogs and crime scene investigation, and the handler in the McCann video clearly targeted their car. There is no way around it.

If the video was supposed to be showing the dog alerting to evidence EXHONERATING the McCanns (as in the car belonged to another suspect), I would still say the dog was directed with bias, and the car was targeted by the handler. It makes no difference WHAT evidence the dog was supposed to find. The video is tainted by the actions of the dog's handler. It is no slur on the reputation of the dog to say that, and I am not saying the McCanns are innocent based on the actions of the dog handler.

The McCanns could be guilty, and that video STILL doesn't pass the evidentiary test for impartiality.

Since emotions run high in this case, I would like to make it clear that in my review of the video, at no time did I ever say it was the sniffer dog's fault, or the Portuguese police fault that Maddie is missing. I don't think ANYONE has ever said that, or alluded to that. No one is blaming the dog for anything. The handler misguided the dog, but even they are not to blame for Maddie being missing. That is not the point in commenting on the video.

However, if the video is offered as evidence of the McCanns guilt, and the video shows a biased experiment with a handler who repeatedly directs the dog to alert only on one car (the McCann car), then as an impartial observer, I cannot sit by and say nothing as to the validity of the test. If this is video is considered evidence of McCann guilt, then it is faulty evidence, and means nothing. Once again, I am not saying they are innocent because the video shows a faulty test. One does not preclude the other.

Of course, in any case where a child goes missing, or is found dead, the parents become suspects. The difference between the McCann case and the Ramsey case is that JonBenet was found on the premises. Almost all intruders who sneak in and hurt a child TAKE the child with them. JonBenet was not taken. The timeline in the Ramsey case is about seven or eight hours for JonBenet's death, the crime scene staging, etc. And it was "in house" where there were no other witnesses.

The McCanns did not have the luxury of seven or eight hours with which to kill Maddie AND dispose of the body (which the Ramseys did not or could not do). Once again, it would have been nearly impossible for the McCanns to have accomplished Maddie's complete disappearance in such a small window of opportunity with no witnesses. I'm not saying it couldn't have been done, but IMO, the odds are against it.

The timeline does include the possibility of someone abducting Maddie. If there is time for the McCanns to have disposed of her body, then there is time for an intruder to have taken her. I don't know the answer, but I do know that it is not worth any amount of hard feelings between anyone here, or at any other forum, as our main concern has always been justice for victims of crime - whatever that may be in the long run.

I understand your feelings, Little, and I also hope and pray that one day Maddie will come home safely. I think that is a bond that unites us all.

 

No! Not a patch on what took place before, Moab. I won't go there. All I can say is I thank Tricia for helping me through it.

 

I suppose that's entirely possible. It would extend the window during which an intruder could get in.

 

Excellent posts. If evidence is produced which shows the McCanns were involved in Madeleine's disappearance, I am ready and willing to look at it. I'd welcome anything which would shed light on what happened.

As it stands, I feel for them as I would feel for any parents of a missing child. They made a bad judgement and they are paying the highest price for it. They felt safe and it turns out they weren't. Some holiday resorts have reputations for being safe places, others don't and you have to watch. The tour operators are obliged to tell you about this and in my experience they do this. When we went to Tenerife, we were warned to watch our belongings because gangs of gypsy thieves operate there. In fact, during our two week stay at Tenerfie, there were several break-ins at the apartments and our video camera was stolen on a bus. It was horrible. I walked around the resort hugging my bag to my body and eyeing everyone up with suspicion and I refused to leave the hotel after dark. There was precious film footage in the video camera too GRRR. Cyprus OTOH, has the opposite reputation and the people are renowned for being extremely honest. We were told that if you lost your purse, you'd probably get it back intact. This was evident in the fact that some of the shops were unsupervised and there were signs saying "If you want to buy anything, please hand money in to such a shop". I understand that Praia da Luz had a reputation for being a safe resort. In my experience, you defeinitely let your guard down in that situation.

Child abductions are really rare in Europe and as I've said before, it used to be really common to see prams parked outside shops (I'm sure Elle will remember this too). People also used to park their prams outside the house on nice days or in back yards of tenements. I did this with my older children but not with Tootsie because times had changed even during the age gap. You never see a pram parked nowadays. If you did, you'd think "Who is stupid wnough to leave a baby unattended...?" It's a sign of the times.

You go on holiday and yes, you don't know anyone but I would say that because you are on holiday, it doesn't feel like real life. You're not experiencing "normal life" warts and all. It's an idyllic environment and maybe that makes us naive. You can also feel very protected and self-contained in a hotel complex. The McCanns have spoken of this and I know exactly what they mean.

My family come from a remote rural lochside village and no-one ever locked their doors or cars. There wasn't any need. Then a guy on the other side of the loch went mad one night and hestarted standing on the shore waving a massive knife and shouting threats across the loch. It made people nervous and they started locking their doors at night in case he decided to come across. I think it often takes a crime or a tragedy to make some people aware of danger. I feel that if the madman had rowed across the loch, gone into one of the houses and murdered a child, then there would undoubtedly be people who would think the villages were mad for leaving their doors unlocked - but it was just the local culture.

I think it's such a pity that here we are almost two years later and many of the online discussions are still centred largely on the fact that the McCanns' misjudged the safety of the resort and that more anger is directed towards them than towards the person who took Madeleine and who may have harmed her. I've read posts by people who hate them so much that it wouldn't matter what they did, it would be wrong. Where is the intruder in all of this? Where is the anger directed towards the person who would steal a little child from her family and do goodness knows what to her?

I think - what punishment would I choose if I made a serious error of judgement of this nature? I'd rather be buried alive than have anything happen to my kids. People say the McCanns put their own pleasure before the safety of their kids, but that would only be a valid argument if the McCanns knew there was a risk of one of their children being harmed if they went down for dinner that night and still decided to go. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I think it's important to move on to the matter of finding Madeleine. The McCanns will spend the rest of their lives mourning their decision.

In seeking Justice for Madeleine, I have tried to be fair. I got upset with the lies which were touted and upset at the fact people accepted them without question - not once but time and time again. We could see the stories were false because something would be said one day and then retracted the next. Justice should be fair and this wasn't fair. It certainly wasn't helping to find Madeleine. People would say "I'm entitled to my opinion" and yes of course they are. But whilst I might think my neighbour is a ugly, would it be alright for me to announce it in the national newspapers? We have some freedom of speech, but with that comes responsibility and if we can't be responsible, we'll lose it.

I personally think that if the McCanns found themselves with a "situation" in the form of having a dead or unconscious child on their hands that they would at least have tried to rescusitate her. I read recently about a little girl who was successfully rescusitated after having no pulse for an extremely long time - I can't find the story, but it was something like half an hour and I hadn't even thought that was possible. But medics worked with her and eventually her heart started beating again. It was being hailed a miracle not because of the length of time she'd been "dead", but the fact that she wasn't showing signs of permanent brain damage. So I think the McCanns would have used their skills as doctors or at least called on some of their doctor friends to help. I don't think they would have quickly disposed of her body and gone to dinner as if nothing had happened.

Even if they did try to cover it up, it makes no sense that they still went to dinner and then pretended to "discover" she was missing during the course of the evening.

If one or both parents had called off dinner that night and if Madeleine had been "discovered missing" in the morning, I'd have had more suspicions in this regard.

Justice is such a fundamentally important thing in our society and I honestly try to maintain a sense of fairness in looking at things. I don't blame the Portuguese police for making mistakes at the start because they were completely inexperienced in dealing with such a crime. It was unheard of for something like this to happen there. I do blame them for leaking stories to the tabloids whilst enforcing silence on everyone else involved under their "secrecy" law. That wasn't fair.

I think the tabloids acted irresponsibly both in Portugal and in the UK and I am angered at some of the talking heads who expressed opinions without checking their facts and then weren't "big" enought to come back and correct it later.

I sincerely hope the truth comes out some day and that if apologies are to be made on either side, they will be. Until then, I hope people will try to be fair and not allow their personal feelings of anger at the McCanns to colour their judgement about everything else. For Madeleine's sake.

 

I agree. Tricia is the best.

 

I think this is such a fundamental thing and you've summed it up very eloquently with the "frame of reference". THis is interesting to me as a compulsive and self-confessed people watcher (I should have studied psychology instead of metallurgy LOL). There's been so much criticism of the baby listening concept and yet it's something I wouldn't have given a second thought to until this case fired it into the public forum. These hotels don't just want people to book their rooms for a week or two. They want them to eat in their restaurants and drink at their bars. That's the lucrative part of the business. Many of their customers are families and so the hotels cater to the children and provide childrens' entertainment and baby listening services to entice the parents to stay in of an evening and spend money in their bars and restaurants instead of buying food at a local supermarket and eating in their rooms/apartments.

Perhaps America is just much better at awareness than Europe but I think it's unfair to judge us on cultural differences - even if they are hard to understand. They might be wrong or ill-advised but they are basd on our own experiences and people often don't realise they are flawed until something goes awry.

Amen to that. I've had a few scares myself.

 

They didn't go to a local bar (which would suggest leaving the hotel complex), they went to the hotel bar. There was a tabloid story early on which claimed they'd gone to a bar eight miles away without their kids one evening that week, but it was quickly refuted.

The Tapas Bar is part of the hotel complex. If they'd used the baby listening service, it would have fallen well within the allowable places they could go. As far as I'm aware, parents can only use a baby listening service if they stay within the confines of the hotel.

One of the things which interests me is this notion that they got off lightly because they were middle class or doctors. Yet the media had an absolute field day with them. I don't think that's getting off lightly :-(

I also remember how hard people were on them - saying they weren't behaving like innocent parents. When Shannon Matthews went missing, Karen, her mother was held up in comparison to Kate McCann as an example of how an innocent parent would behave and we now know she was behind the whole thing and is serving a jail sentence for it. Unlike the McCanns, the Matthews are not middle class nor even what would be classed as respectable people, yet they got a much more sympathetic treatment by the media than the McCanns.

In fact, neither Kate nor Gerry McCann come from a middle class background. They are both working class and they both worked hard for their achievements.

Kids from better homes often have a tough time at school with the hard kids being given more "respect" by their peers. I suppose it's all about self-preservation.

 

My sentiments exactly. If there had been the tabloid lies and wild speculation about ANY suspect in this case, I'd have been equally outraged.

I agree. It would be torn apart by a defence lawyer.

The dogs were also brought in three months after Madeleine went missing. It's such a pity they weren't brought in immedaitely.

This is absolutely as it should be.

A lot of people do not make an allowance for reaction time. This was one of the things which a forensic psychologist (I think that's what he was) spoke about in an early reconstruction of the case. It was on TV here and I posted about it at the time. It might be on YouTube. Was possibly the Tonight Programme or Panorama. He said that they didn't have time for reaction - i.e. panic time, thinking time. Whilst there was time for them to perhaps have removed her body and hidden it there would have been a period of chaos, indecision, disagreement etc.

We know from the Westerfield case that an abductor can be in and out in a matter of minutes and leave little or no trace.

 

An interview with Van Zandt. Do we know him from the Ramsey case?

http://www.truveo.com/Van-Zandt-holds-parents-responsible/id/3158676816#

 

Sorry, CLint Van Zandt, he's a former FBI Profiler:-

Talking here about the sniffer dogs:-

http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-il&search=van zandt&page=2

 

Isn't he the forensic who said the on/off switch on the flashlight fit exactly into the rectangular wound on JonBenet's head.

 

That was the cadaver dog. There were two dogs: cadaver dog Eddie and the blood dog Keela.
Only the cadaver dog barks when alerting.

 

He might be, I'd never heard of him before but I didn't get the "impression" that he was a forensic guy. I think he's a profiler and would therefore be more psychology and stuff.

I ended up watching quite a few video interviews with him. He was leery of JMK when the news first broke - said it would be very important to make sure he wasn't just an attention seeker looking for his 15 minutes kind of thing.

I like his plain talking. He says "Yes I blame the parents, but let's move on" and that's exactly how I felt.

In another interview he was really critical of the media coverage. he said (paraphrased) "We're seeing lots of news articles, but very few absolute facts"

I'm interested to know what his reputation is in the US. I also wonder - if the young dark haired guy Dan Abrams? I had envisioned an older grey-haired guy.

 

Hi Sboyd, nice to see you here.
I think it was Dr. Werner Spitz who said this about the flashlight.