Questions

Some people also have pondered if the lower bruising was from a "first" strangulation. Often this is considered in relation to a scarf being used oriiginally. But yes, I think that the necklace rolled up in the cord, plus various autopsy photos we can see online of other strangulation victims, indicates there was only the cord used. It clearly rolled up the neck, as is common in strangulations, apparently. This also caused the large, triangular bruise on the neck, as well. It was larger than one we can compare online, (perhaps you have seen that photo, which does help with the comparison), but that was an adult's neck and a scarf was used. JonBenet's small, delicate neck and tissues must have resulted in more damage.

Dr. Wecht, who is an expert and howdy, believes the strangulation caused pressure on the vagus nerve in the neck, which stopped her breathing. He feels that the strangulation was some kind of erotic game that went wrong. He also wrote in his book that the head blow happened quickly during the repeated tightening and releasing of the cord, during strangulation, because of the minimal swelling of the brain and small amount of bleeding. I certainly am no expert, but other experts have expressed differing opinions on that through the years, one saying it could have been up to an hour or more after the head blow. Your info from your inquiries with the radiologist fit into the spectrum. But it still leaves us with enough varying opinions that we just don't know exactly, do we?

Absent evidence given by experts at trial, we're on our own. Since they'd probably give us the same timeline, I don't know that we'd be any better off on this element alone, though. It's the other evidence added in that should help with that, I hope.

But I do have the audacity to disagree with Dr. Wecht on the "erotic strangulation" theory, because there is no evidence that the cord was tightened and then released repeatedly, which would have caused another set of bruises, I think. Also, people who practice such S & M techniques use some kind of padding under the cord, so they don't have to explain why their necks are bruised, obviously from being strangled. Since JonBenet was a well monitored child, one who was not only judged in beauty pageants, but photographed in her short life so much I still find photos of her online that I have never seen before, I doubt that any adult would be careless enough to use erotic strangulation without padding the cord. Unless, of course, he meant to kill her so she couldn't tell who did this horrible act upon her. I can't come up with a reason Patsy would have written a ransom note for such an adult, because he would clearly be criminally insane. But I guess arguments can be made.... And will.

I can see your theory working, though, except I don't imagine that the cord was removed and then reapplied. Again, the necklace rolled up in the cord is proof that the cord started being tightened at the lower neck, causing that lower bruising. So it would require a third line of bruising for that to work, wouldn't it?

Who caused the prior molestation? Obviously it had to be someone who had access and influence with the child. Often children who are being molested will act inappropriately sexual in the presence of others. Pam Archuleta said Patsy was worried and told Pam A. that JonBenet was "flirting" and "too friendly." Under the circumstances, I can't for the life of me figure out why LE doesn't pursue the evidence of prior abuse, if they in fact are actually renewing the investigation. They can't be that clueless. So my guess is they know exactly what they need to investigate, but know it wouldn't make any difference at this point, so why waste the time and money, not to mention, get Lin Wood back on them.

Honestly, if not for those of us on the Internet who won't let a child's unresolved murder fade into Team Ramsey propaganda, the truth would have been buried long before now.

 

Even many RDIs tend to give Patsy and John the benefit of the doubt, assuming that the Ramseys believed JonBenet was dead after the headblow.

But if either John and Patsy inflcited the genital wound and saw it bleed, then they would have known JonBenet was not yet dead.

So wouldn't this cast doubt on the theory that the Ramseys "thought she was dead" when staging the wine cellar scene?

(A variable to take into account is the stager's possible lack of medical knowledge, so Patsy or John may not have known that only living persons can bleed).

 

Koldkase

“Who caused the prior molestation?†Yes, Koldkase, that’s the crux of the matter. Too many have shied away from this taboo subject. It is, understandably, an embarrassing thing to think about; especially where parent/child is concerned. The ordinary, decent human being finds it so very hard to even imagine such a thing. However, it does happen; transcending race, religion, and/or social-economic status.
Remember the former Miss America and her father?
When all is said and done, and the truth ever be known, the public will cringe at the horror of the Ram saga. No wonder the Ram family, most notably Pam, have tried every conceivable diversion in order to bury any hint of molestation. If Burke knows the truth, he will not sacrifice his Ram name in order to shed light on this subject. After all, he has no desire to taint his future decedents. It is all so sad.
gl

 

Actually, there can be postmortem "bleeding", but not from the heart pumping. It is more or less blood still present in capillaries (?) that drains out when the tissue is punctured, if I remember correctly. The amount of blood that would have drained in this case, I have no idea. Do we know if the acute vaginal injury was enough to result in a lot of bleeding? Since the body was wiped down, I wonder if the ME knows.

Wouldn't the coloration of the bruising in the genital area reveal if she was alive at that point of abuse? I know there is a difference in the color of bruising that happens after death. But peri-mortem...?

 

Thanks for the info, KK. It is somewhere in the back of my mind that what had been wiped off was blood, but I don't recall the source. (ST's book? Bonita papers?)

Interesting question. I wish MD Elvis were still a poster on the JBR forums.
Maybe other posters with medical knowledge can be of help here?

 

This is within the time frame the given by the renowned pathologist Dr. Wright who estimated that 20 to 60 minutes passed between the head blow and strangulation.


Going by the evidence, the likely sequence of events is:
1 - Head blow
2 - Infliction of the genital wound
3 - wrist ligatures
4 - cord tied around the neck
5 - duct tape put on mouth
Imo the handle was a pure stage prop, fashioned on the victim after the knot was already tied. For this was no noose pulled tight like in a lasso, but a tied knot. The amount of JonBenet's hair which ended up in the neck knot points to fingerwork with the stager's hands getting in contact with the victim's hair and accidentally tying some of it into the knot.
That the knot was tied on the side of the neck is another giveaway that no handle was pulled from behind despite the stager's efforts to suggest this. Also, the long distance -17 inches (!) - between the tied knot and handle makes any pulling action improbable.
Imo the stager, kneeling next to the body, just tied the knot on that part of the victim's neck which happend to be close to her, with JonBenet lying on the stomach, her head turned to the right, resting on her left cheek.
Imo the complete absence of any internal neck injuries, like bruising or bleeding, is another indicator that no handle was violently pulled.
As for the deep embedding - this too can be explained by the mere time factor of the cord having been on the neck for so many hours before the autopsy was finally conducted.
How easily those furrows on skin can form even with only minimal pressure can be seen in the deep furrows one often gets from wearing socks which are only a little tight.

Imo the stager did make an effort to tie the neck knot tightly, and it finally cut off the last oxygen supply to JonBenet already in deep coma from the head blow, nearing death.

 

Also, a soft, flat nylon cord is not at all suitable to repeated tightening and releasing, and the tied neck knot contradicts an "erotic strangulation" scenario as well.

 

I'm afraid I still think in the same way as Detective Steve Thomas. I cannot see this family who were heading for Charlevoix early the next morning going home and doing nothing else but get ready for bed, although with it being Christmas John relents and helps Burke finish off a game with Burke before he goes to bed. According to Burke's testament, JonBenét Ramsey walked in front of him when they got out the car and up the stairs. I think their son Burke's statement proves his parents were lying.

I am still staying with the same theory that Patsy Ramsey was absolutely exhausted from all the Christmas activities that week, and blew a gasket when she went through the midnight ritual of wakening JonBenét up to go to the bathroom, and found JonBenét in a wet and soiled state and dragged her daughter out of bed to the bathroom, where she threw her around causing a head injury which was fatal, and in turn, thinking JonBenét is dead, the staging begins with the useless garrote, and paintbrush.

Nedra Paugh's words to Steve Thomas still ring in my ears. JonBenét would create blue bloody murder if wakened up and hauled out of bed. I cannot move from this theory, but will still read other scenarios.

 

I also have a problem with Wecht's theory about the tightening and loosening.. The placement of the knot at the back of the neck, and the type of the knot used, does not lend well to that theory, IMO. I'm sure you know more about the knot than I do. Is it one that could loosen easily once tightened?

But his theory about the cord placing pressure on the vagus nerve and stopping respiration gives me pause. I had three short circuits in the normal conduction pathway of my heart and this would cause tachycardia. I could stop the fast heart rate with a carotid massage....stimulating the vagus nerve. Like you, I just don't see how this was a rig for tightening and loosening.

 

I can't give a positive answer on this one but I'll offer a few thoughts. I think a bruise would definitely look different in an area where livor mortis has occurred...where you have the purplish discoloration already in place. You might even miss small bruises I would assume. And a bruise located in an area where the blood has drained would probably be about the same but would stand out more because the surrounding tissue would be white instead of pink, etc. I wouldn't think it would be a different color but would stand out more in stark contrast to the white skin? This is why I thought the round cheek mark might have been caused by an accidental poke with the paintbrush handle as the ligature was being fashioned.

In a living person, a bruise undergoes changes in color as the blood breaks down and it begins to be absorbed. It goes from a purple bluish to a lighter color and then, oftentimes, yellow....etc. I'm not for sure, but, I think some of this would occur post mortem also as the blood breaks down.

 

I think your sequence is very safe to use in trying to get closer to what happened.

And I agree with you 100%. This handle was fashioned after the fact. One could have tightened this knot with a couple fingers looped around the cord about two or three inches from the neck. One probably wouldn't even need to wrap the cord around the fingers. I think it's b.s. that someone needed the handle to tighten this ligature. It was just another staging, IMO.

 

I, for one, wouldn't feel it necessary to try and convince you to change your theory because I believe it's workable as long as you, reasonably, work the pineapple into this theory.

I believe it is VERY likely she ate the pineapple within 30 minutes of being assaulted. But for the sake of reasonable argument, I will allow one hour. By saying this, I don't want to sound arrogant. One can posit two hours, or twenty if they like, but, I won't consider it in my acceptable theories.

 

What about this? Let's say Patsy did wake JBR up for a bathroom visit and Patsy went downstairs. Instead of going to the bathroom, JBR followed her downstairs, saw the pineapple out that Patsy had gotten out for Burke, and helped herself to a few pieces. She fooled around downstairs, looking at her new bike while mom was finishing up and, when mom was done, they went back upstairs and that's when mom discovered her accident...In this scenario, Patsy would be the only living person who would know about the pineapple.

 

Oh yes, Learnin, I mustn't forget the pineapple. I believe JonBenét ate some pineapple before going to bed, and of course this also brings up another theory which other posters think could have happened. If Burk and JonBenét ate pineapple together, they could have fallen out and through spatting, Burke could have swiped JB with the large flashlight on the counter. Strange this flashlight was wiped free of fingerprints (?). Something wrong with this set-up.

Round and round we go on the Ramsey Carousel.

 

Interesting ideas. I'll ponder them and reply later, as I'm very busy right now. As you say, Elle, round and round we go. But somehow, I think we've made that track smaller as we go. Maybe one day we will be at the center and the answers JonBenet deserves.

 

You have worked very hard KK battling alone for a long time on this frustrating case. I just wish we could hear something from this new investigation team, even a few crumbs, but nothing! So disappointing!

 

It's believable, Learnin!

 

Oh no, Elle, far from alone. I couldn't do it alone. And everything I've learned, I've done so because others helped me so much along the way.

I'm just so glad we have others who also won't give up. New people who are now active posters are also always welcome, because they bring new ideas and some, like learnin, have areas of expertise that show us things we've never known before. Learnin's pineapple experiment is up there with Jayelles' Bloomies and Cherokee's handwriting analysis, IMO.

And there are many others who add immensely to the knowledge we have been sorely lacking in. The debate that stems from discussion is all that keeps my memory intact, because I have to constantly refresh it. Then I find things I either missed before or forgot, that have new meaning with the new knowledge we've gained through the years. So all the golden oldies, newbies, and in-betweenies keep me going when I would otherwise have given up long ago, that's for sure. I'm so grateful for every effort to unravel the web of this crime.

And your constant support means more than you can imagine, Elle. You always, always help with your kind presence and feedback. Thank YOU, Elle. :rose:

 

Oh man KK do you have a refresh button to click regarding this case? If so I WANT ONE TOO!! I don't post as often as I used to but I am still here reading daily and will never give up on justice for this little girl. This is the only Jonbenet forum I visit anymore. I too just love love LOVE new posters! Welcome all! :wave:
Just wanted to add I truely do belive we have already unraveled the web of this crime but I doubt much will come of it now. So we'll just keep pluggin' away in hopes of something new breaking that will finally bring justice for Jonbenet.

 

Thank you, KK. I do agree with all you have stated above. It is frustrating that in spite of all these poster's wonderful efforts, the Ramseys were not arrested.