In-Depth Discussion of Kolar's Book "Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?"

I agree. I think that bugaboo pineapple in the digestive system was a detail they didn't anticipate.

Murder on the fly ain't easy, I'm guessing.

Good thing they had Smit to make up a farfetched intruder who thought to bring pineapple, but forgot the ransom note--then the body.

Guess Team Ramsey should have been looking for an intruder with his own brain injury.

But it could be that the pineapple on the table was in some way part of the events leading to the head blow.

 

Perhaps the watery red liquid has more to do with the cleaning/wiping of JonBenet than any biological changes.
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=177442&postcount=526
Note that Meyer didn’t actually identify it specifically as blood, probably because it was so diluted.
“A minimal amount of semiliquid thin watery red fluid is present in the vaginal vault.â€
This is in contrast to clear identification of blood as in this passage from the autopsy report:
“On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule.â€

 

Aw you poor wee lamb, KK. I am so sorry to hear this, Too bad you couldn't have found someone to whack him one for you. Sorry your folks let you down. Show me where he is and I'll punch him oui right now! Are you still friendly with him today?

I remember Marilyn Van Derburon on TV quite a number of years ago.
What a brave young woman for speaking out about her father. I haven't read anything about her lately. I didn't read her book. I doubt I will. Reading Kolar's book is the first book I've read in ages. I just don't read books any more. I browse through the ones I have, but I'm at the stage where I have to make a clearance. However, I just had to have Chief Kolar's book having been with this case for many years, and with the impact it has had on all of you posters here, I just had to have it.

Did you ever let your folks know what you thought of them for letting you down?

 

I agree with everything you're saying here rashomon!

 

I'm wondering about the idea that they hadn't gone to bed. Maybe the parents had gone upstairs, and thought the kids were in bed, but the kids went Christmas and birthday present hunting.

Yesterday as part of my re-review of everything I looked through the pictures of poor dead JonBenet again. (this is not a fun endeavor.) I got stuck on the photo of the side of her face with the drool still there. The "mucosa" had leaked out of the mouth and run down the cheek. Gravity doesn't vary; it looks like she lay with her head leaning to the right for a while, if you look at the shape and direction of the drip. We know that the duct tape was applied after she drooled, after she was unconcious or dead. So maybe she lay for a while after the head blow, drooled, got poked a few times with a railroad track (which made marks while she was alive) until the individual holding the track decided he had to go tell his parents soomething was wrong with sister.

I have NO medical training, but that drool seems to indicate that she was still for a while before the duct tape was applied. It also makes me see that it was REALLY important to someone to wipe her genital area, but not as much to wipe her face.

 

I agree, Elle, heymom and koldkase.

Among other things (as have been discussed), Burke lied, told "conflicting" stories, admitted to keeping secrets, and acted "bored" (na na na I can't hear you) while being interviewed - looks to me like a person with a lot to hide. But I think it was much more than just covering for guilty parents. Repeatedly and in different ways - both through what he didn't say/ask and what he didn't draw - he was erasing JonBenet from existence.

Two parents of Burke's friends talked about his apparent lack of care/concern re JBR just days after her murder. Two days after her murder, he was overhead discussing in a "very impersonal" way whether or not she'd been manually strangled. Two days! (Kolar, p. 353)

The only time he was seen acting like he cared was at the funeral when he went over to her casket and patted it. Well, really? It's just as likely that John or Patsy nudged him in that direction and said "Go say goodbye to your sister!" I can't help questioning how spontaneous and genuine this was. Right after this "brief display of caring" he went skipping through the headstones! (Kolar, pp. 352-3)

I don't know if a 10-year-old can pre-meditate a murder the same way an adult can, but IMO clearly his anger/hostility and complete lack of empathy set the stage for a deliberate act of violence.

And what's in those medical records that have been hidden?

Oh yeah, and what's up with that creepy photo? (Kolar, p. 360-1) Shudder.

 

Patsy told him to do that, IMO. She was dressed up as Jackie Kennedy for JonBenet's funeral (she admits that in DOI) and she wanted Burke to touch the coffin as Caroline Kennedy had touched her father's in 1963. More cover up.

 

Exactly, heymom.

Oh good grief. Thanks for that insight, wombat. I've never been able to bring myself to read the Ramseys' novels.

 

Exactly, rashomon.

 

All for show, Wombat! What a false life Patsy led!

 

Bwaahaaahaaa! :floor:

 

I'm back after some trackpad malfunctions on my Mac- had to buy an external mouse, which I am not used to, but better late than never. If anyone has responded to this, please forgive the repeat. Thanks for the vote of confidence...I hope I won't disappoint you.

The "watery" blood found in JB's vagina at the autopsy could have been a mixture of blood and other fluids from leaking blood vessels. The capillaries "burst" in a live person- that is what petechiae are in a way. In someone who has been dead approximately 36 hours (which is how long JB had been dead when the autopsy began at 8 am on the 27th) and the body has not been embalmed (NO embalming would have been allowed on a murder victim until after the autopsy) the early stages of decomposition are progressing and the capillary (the smallest blood vessels) are beginning to disintegrate, and the cell walls are also beginning to disintegrate, leaking other fluids into the body cavities. The blood is also beginning to "gel" at that point- evidenced by the term "semi-liquid" in the autopsy.
It is interesting to note that there IS a way to tell whether blood comes from a living person (oxygenated) or not (there are very specific blood gases present once death has occurred) but as blood very quickly undergoes chemical changes after death from almost the moment oxygen (and glucose) stop being delivered by the trusty pump- the heart, that test is useless when performing an autopsy. One thing that WOULD have helped pinpoint the time of death is forensic entomology- the presence of insects and their developmental instars (progress from egg to larvae to adult stage)- these are virtually fool-proof and had she actually been outside (as some believe) even temporarily and even in winter, certain insects that pray on carrion would have been present. An insect like that can smell the changes in blood chemistry from quite a distance, and in some situations where a corpse is accessible (and it need not be outdoors) the first insects can be on the body within 10 minutes of death. It's a fascinating study to learn about.

 

rashomon - Thanks so much for posting those excerpts about John's fibers from the August 2000 interviews.

I admit that I'd been wondering if that fiber evidence was real or if the police were playing John... BUT when I read his ridiculous run-around about laundering, I became convinced this fiber evidence is authentic. I've edited out Lin Wood's attempts at obstruction:

17 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, when
18 you came home on the 25th, do you recall if
19 you threw your clothes down the chute to the
20 second floor where someone who might have
21 been in the house would have access to them?
22 Can you tell us who might have done that?
23 A. Who knows. I don't know.
24 Q. I understand it is tough.
25 A. I really don't. Yeah, I don't
0065
1 know.

...

13 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Wool shirts, would
14 those normally go out to the cleaners or
15 would it depend? Even now, what is your
16 family practice?
17 A. Well, if it is a dry-cleaning
18 item, we'd normally send it directly to the
19 dry cleaners. Once in a while they get
20 thrown in by mistake, but particularly if it
21 is a shirt.
22 Q. Your dry-cleaning items, would you
23 just throw them down the chute and let Linda
24 sort them out, this is dry-cleaning, this
25 gets washed or would you separate them up
0066
1 front and keep them in a separate place, if
2 you recall?
3 A. I don't -- I am trying to
4 remember where the laundry chute went to. I
5 mean, it probably -- I wasn't that organized
6 to separate things out like that as a normal
7 course of business.
8 MR. BECKNER: Did you ask what he
9 did on that particular night with the shirt?
10 I missed that.
11 THE WITNESS: Frankly, I don't
12 remember.
13 MR. LEVIN: I thought I had asked
14 you. I wasn't sure if that was clear.
15 THE WITNESS: I mean, typically
16 if it is a wool shirt, something that does
17 require dry-cleaning, I try to get several
18 cycles out of it, but I don't remember.
19 MR. BECKNER: What was your
20 normal routine?
21 THE WITNESS: Well, normally, I
22 would --
23 MR. WOOD: About dry-cleaning?
24 MR. BECKNER: No.
25 THE WITNESS: -- I would hang
0067
1 onto it. If it was something I wanted to
2 wear again, I'd hang it, I'd try to, I'd
3 usually hang it up. Sometimes I would put
4 it on a chair. But I wasn't religious about
5 that. I would normally try to hang it up.
6 Q. (By Chief Beckner) Let me be
7 more specific. Would you throw your clothes
8 on the floor typically in a pile?
9 A. Well, no, not, not if I was, if
10 I was going to wear it again. If it was
11 headed for the laundry, you know, it could
12 end up on the floor before it ended up in
13 the laundry chute, but if I intend to wear
14 it again, if it was a suit or sweater, or
15 something like that, I normally wouldn't
16 throw it on the floor.

So no, of course he wouldn't toss an expensive dry-clean-only shirt on the floor or down the chute (the destination of which he apparently couldn't recall).

Oh but that shirt could've gotten thrown in by mistake, particularly if it is a shirt... I wasn't that organized, I wasn't religious about that... it could end up on the floor before it ended up in the laundry chute...

So many innocent ways for those fibers to have ended up in JonBenet's underwear, like in a pile of laundry down the chute.

Yeah right

 

DeeDee - THANK YOU

 

The one thing we know for certain, because the Rams admit it, was that BR was awake and doing things after arriving home. Now. I've never believed, for a second, that a 9 year old boy would go straight to bed and go to sleep after having received a brand new Nintendo that very morning. No way. Guarantee you that he had to play a little while and it's quite possible that, if JBR was in bed, BR got her up to compete and that's when things got rolling...might've gone downstairs for some pineapple then a trip down to the basement for a look see....

 

Burke's lack of tears or any emotion at JonBenet's death and funeral and the later interview with the psychologist seem indicative of a person who felt nothing at JonBenet's loss. I know people with Asperger's have difficulty expressing their emotions, but even then, they can usually cry and show signs of mourning/depression when suffering a heartbreak. Burke acted like nothing had happened. He didn't ask questions, he didn't comment, he just left JonBenet out of his picture.

When I was in 3rd grade, one of my best friends was accidentally shot dead by his older brother while they were fighting over a gun on the front porch. They told us the next day at school, and there was immediate sadness. Collectively, and individually, we felt a loss. Those of us who were closer to Donnie cried, and the boys who usually played ball with him at recess just stood around. No one felt like playing, and no one could imagine never seeing Donnie again. I was upset and missed Donnie for a long time. Back then, they didn't have school counselors for kids to see when they'd suffered the loss of a classmate. Some people have wondered if Burke, as an almost 10 year old, could have understood the finality of JoBenet's death. I am here to tell you, he was old enough to understand, and he was most certainly old enough to mourn.

We were only eight-years-old, two years younger than Burke, and yet we felt the absence of Donnie immediately and for a long time afterwards. We mourned Donnie, and we talked about him, and we asked questions about how he died. No one can tell me that it is normal for a boy, three weeks away from being 10, to act like Burke did when his baby sister was murdered in his own home while he was present. Not only should he have mourned his sister and asked questions and acted like there had been a loss, Burke should have shown concern and fear about a predator/intruder who had gained access to his home and killed in silence with no physical trace. THAT is the stuff of nightmares, but Burke went on about his life as if nothing happened. His facial expressions are not changed from before JonBenet's death. There was no discernable difference in his world.

I had a cousin who was killed in an car accident as teenager. His younger brother, just a few years older than Burke, was distraught. I was very young myself and do not remember much about the funeral, but what is etched in my mind is the sight of my cousin Galen, throwing himself across his older brother's coffin, and wailing in a sound I had never heard before; deep, other-worldly sobs that came from a boy's broken heart. They had to drag Galen away from the coffin, and I cried for him and his grief.

I'm not saying Burke was as close to JonBenet as my cousin was to his brother. Every sibling relationship is different, but for Burke to show no emotion at all, even with his mother weeping, it is beyond my comprehension. If Burke didn't hate JonBenet (and maybe he did), he surely didn't love her either. Perhaps, all he felt was indifference towards the family pet ... until she made him angry.

 

My parents knew the choices they made and the effect it had on all of us. Of course it caused a lot of hard feelings through the years.

But what they didn't know was that they were crippling my brother, the bully.

I actually feel sorry for him, Elle. He was a child, just like Burke. By the time he grew up, his behavior patterns were set, but the rest of the world wasn't going to reward or ignore them. I think he's a lot like the Ramseys in that he will never admit or even understand that lying, cheating, and abusing others is wrong.

I heard a term the other day in regards to how these kinds of people think: narcissistic immunity. They believe they're special and have a destiny, so anything they want to do, any means to reach a goal, no matter what it is, they justify in their mind. We beer can collectors just don't matter to them because they're important...and we're not.

Remember when Patsy said repeatedly that JonBenet "fulfilled her destiny" by bringing people to god? Even if she had to be murdered to do it, is what Patsy was justifying, apparently.

That's the thinking I believe this phrase is addressing.

Patsy believed god healed her from cancer. Patsy believed she was meant for great things...and when she was past her prime, she saw her great things being achieved through JonBenet, IMO.

Now they're just a family of world-class freaks.

 

Woohoo! Thank YOU!

Okay, Guttah Gang, call off the search party! She's back! :cheering:

 

You flatter me....

 

:unreal:

She actually admits to dressing up like Jackie Kennedy??? And to wanting Burke to touch JonBenet's casket in imitation of Caroline?

You're right, it's incongruous for Burke to make that gesture and then skip through the headstones. Just shows that the gesture was not genuine.