In-Depth Discussion of Kolar's Book "Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?"

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. heymom

    heymom Member

    Except, and I know I keep bringing it up, the feces-smeared candy shows a level of hostility that is pathological.

    Thanks for the personal anecdotes, Cherokee. What happened to Donnie's brother? It must have been a horrible tragedy for him to go through. Of course the whole family would have been devastated. And your cousin...just heartbreaking. It is how my own sons would react - they are very close and always have been. The brother who was left would never be the same again.

    I've told you all about my mother's death when I was 10. I didn't understand very well, at first, even though she'd been chronically ill to one extent or another my entire life. I think kids just take things for granted as normal because they don't have anything to compare their experiences with. In fact, I think I even asked my dad if I could have a turtle as we walked to the car when he came to tell me at school. Mom would never let me have a turtle. That sounds pretty cold, I know. All I can say is that I didn't have any comprehension of what had really happened. But my father made my sister and I view my mother's body and then I knew for sure that my mom was not coming back. I cried then, and I cried especially after her burial. I missed her SO much...I remember going to my room and crying, and wanting everyone to just go away because I wanted only my mother, not anyone else.

    So if JonBenet had met with an accident or an illness that killed her, by the time her funeral took place, Burke should have been showing some sort of normal emotion - missing her, feeling sad, being concerned about his parents' grief, etc. I would say he acted unconcerned, even somewhat merry. Very unusual and not normal. But then, what really WAS normal about that family?

    I think the picture he drew argues that he DID want JonBenet OUT of the family. She's not even IN the picture, it's as if she never existed. That is very unusual, and must have set off all kinds of alarms with the psychologist who interviewed him.
     
  2. wombat

    wombat Member

    Yes, she admits to dressing like Jackie Kennedy, but she doesn't say she asked Burke to touch JonBenet's casket, I just think that's why he did it.

    Death of Innocence page 34-35:

    She was a piece of work, huh?
     
  3. heymom

    heymom Member

    Indeed, she was. Discussing what she wore to the funeral! Thinking of how she would look like Jackie in her veil! Private in her grief! More like, if no one could see her clearly, she'd surely look more convincing in her role as The Grieving Mother.

    More staging! :unreal:
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    Oh Cherokee, this must have been a very traumatic time for you when you were very young. I think Burke Ramsey needed special treatment and he didn't really get it because Patsy was too involved with JonBenét and the stupid pageants. I personally think Burke hated JonBenét.
     
  5. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Man! A lot of posts since yesterday!

    Interesting observations all the way around and of course anything is possible re: Burke--and once again, I think Kolar had very good reasons to want Burke's psychological records. There could be a mountain of clues there, or maybe nothing out of the ordinary.

    Before anyone assigns too much importance to Burke's detached "affect," don't forget that he could just be like his father. Hunter called Ramsey the Ice Man, and Linda Arndt described him the morning of the murder as "cordial." Look at him on the CNN infomercial--that is one cordial and detached SOB.
     
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    I would say you're right Bob!. Burke could be a duplicate of his Dad, the cold hearted businessman. Good for Hunter! Ice Man is a perfect name for John Ramsey. I haven't come to this part in Kolar's book about Burke's psychological records. Did Chief Kolar receive them?
     
  7. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Elle--Kolar was able to review a social worker's interview with Burke shortly after the murder, but Ramsey's lawyers wanted, and got, an "island of privacy" regarding medical/psychological records for the family. A new Grand Jury could get these records, but I seriously doubt anything's ever going to happen to that end. The only reason Burke even got interviewed the one time is because there is some sort of law in Colorado that allows the state to come in and take the siblings of a murdered child if it was determined that home environment could be unsafe for those remaining.

    While I understand wanting privacy, you have to ask what could be in those records that is so important to keep private.
     
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you. Bob! An "island of privacy" regarding medical/psychological records for the family(?). How lucky for the Ramseys! I think the fact Burke turned ten on the 27th January also helped if my memory serves me right(?). The Health Authorities could have removed Burke had his tenth birthday been much later in the year.

    Yes! Keeping Burke's records locked up makes me wonder too!
     
  9. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you, DeeDee, for explaining this. I would love to get your input on when you think the acute vaginal trauma occurred relative to JBR's death. Is there any way to tell from the autopsy report or maybe other info you've read? I'll re-post my original question here:
    Thanks so much, DeeDee!
     
  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    I was just thinking Britt, with this broken part of the brush being used to camouflage previous sexual abuse, those who were involved assumed JonBenét was already dead. I doubt Patsy and John Ramsey would have attempted this action knowing JonBenét was still alive (?). However, I'm sure little JonBenét was too close to death and didn't feel the pain.
     
  11. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Manual strangulation

    I am re-reading Kolar's book. One stellar thing I just read that I missed initially was that Burke and Susan Stein's son Doug discussed "Manual strangulation" early on.

    What 9 YO knows manual vs Garrote strangulation?

    I recall from the good old days of this case being told, by someone who'd know, that JBR was manually strangled. Posters laughed at me. Regardless, I thought, at the time, that that meant someone strangled her with his or her hands. Now I know that that is not always the case. But how could Burke have been discussing Manual strangulation days after the murder?

    Shocking.
     
  12. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I've just started Kolar's book. I did take note that the consensus was that the large red triangular abrasion on the front of JB's throat was likely caused by twisting a shirt collar tight, with the knuckles of the hand doing the twisting making the mark. Of course we have not seen photos of the white shirt she was found in to look at the neck to see if it was stretched out in any way. And there is always the possibility that she was wearing the red turtleneck. But I stand behind my opinion that she was not manually strangled with someone's hands around her throat. There would definitely be marks from that.
    It is very suspicious that BR was discussing strangulation of any kind so soon after the murder. The parents said they never discussed anything at all about JB's murder with BR, and it is just one more thing that makes me think he knew exactly what happened to his sister...because he was there.
     
  13. heymom

    heymom Member

    I guess I missed that too, maybe I was reading too fast. What page is that on? I think I will have to go through the book again, more slowly this time.
     
  14. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Unfortunately, there really is no way to pinpoint a more exact time for the acute injury above what the coroner stated. Death is a complex process, and it isn't complete just because the heart has stopped beating- that is just the beginning of the process. What the coroner was actually saying was that the nature of the injury indicated that her heart was still pumping blood when it was inflicted. We know it was the strangulation that finally ended her life; although the head bash would have killed her without it, whoever inflicted it would have no way of knowing that. After all, the fracture wasn't even seen until the autopsy and her scalp was peeled back (known as "reflection"). I can think of no other reason for stagers who were also her parents to jab her with that paintbrush unless it was to cover up previous sexual abuse.
    Certainly an intruder had no need to cover up anything.
    Thank God she was not conscious to feel it.
    Kolar's book has made me rethink a few of my theories about how those injuries occurred. I had thought the sexual assault may have prompted the scream, which prompted the head bash and that may actually be what happened. But as it seems that the vaginal stab came so close to her death, it appears she had already screamed, already been bashed and already strangled. And is also explains why there is a missing piece. The part of the brush used to penetrate her was bloodied removed from the crime scene.
    I am also hopeful that anyone who had denied that there was prior sexual abuse will read this and know that investigators and forensic specialists have proven there WAS.
     
  15. heymom

    heymom Member

    I would think that a cellar room, in a basement with a BROKEN window, might have allowed some of those insects to find JonBenet's body.

    I had never heard that some people believe JonBenet's body had ever been outside the house? What evidence do they have for that theory? I would think that someone would have seen the Ramseys drive away, plus the car engine would be warm and there might be tire tracks, etc. And if they did try to take her outside the house, why wouldn't they have left her there? They certainly didn't have any problem leaving her body under the Christmas tree as they ran away to the Fernies' house...
     
  16. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you for this very clear explanation of what you think happened, DeeDee. It is believable!

    The following line just jumps out at me:

    Certainly an intruder had no need to cover up anything.

    How right you are!
     
  17. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you, DeeDee - I really appreciate your input. That's exactly what I've been trying to figure out - if the vaginal stab happened first and started the whole awful attack. That seems the most logical, whereas the paintbrush attack to stage a sexual assault seems so bizarre. But if the injury happened that close to death, there really isn't any other explanation than that it was staging. Unless the attacker poked her to try to wake her up.
     
  18. heymom

    heymom Member

    Unless the attacker also choked her, and continued to try and torture her while she was unconscious.
     
  19. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Good point, heymom - there's that scenario as well. Possibly it didn't even occur to the attacker that JBR was dying, just that she was knocked out. That actually makes more sense to me than the staging scenario.
     
  20. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Eventually insects would have found her body. It just would have taken longer indoors in the winter. With or without the broken window pane, they would have gotten in somehow.
    Yes, some people do believe that JB may have been taken outside - and brought back in later when the idea proved impractical. There is really NO evidence for that theory- it is just a theory. I agree that someone may very well have seen the Rs car go in and out of the garage or heard it. It wasn't that late for people to be up and awake on Christmas Day.
    I am sure the Rs did not want her body outside- in the cold and elements, with animals and scavenger birds, etc. having access to her. I cannot imagine the parents putting her outside, and I cannot imagine them leaving her there. They WANTED her body- they wanted that funeral. They even put it in the note how important a "proper burial" was..."you will be denied her remains for proper burial" I mean, what kidnapper puts that in a ransom note? None- not one single ransom note has ever even hinted at the victim's remains being denied to the family for proper burial. If a kidnapper wants to kill the victim (for unpaid ransom or any other reason) they will certainly do so without threat of "denying remains for proper burial".
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice