JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by otg, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Brilliant! Thank you! Elle and I will be going over this with a fine tooth comb.

    On this topic, I found some good illustrations of brain hematoma and hemorrhage on youtube when we were having this discussion on the previous thread about the head injury and weapon, which you can see here: http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=192590&postcount=56
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, don't let us deter you...or anything.... :floor:

    I get what you're saying. Unfortunately, until one of our rich benefactors goes to Boulder and wrests those case files Smit copied out of the hands of Team Ramsey, or as I call them, the Boulder DA Office, we'll never have anything but this. Working from it, though, something else has hit me looking at it in otg's 90 degree rotation.

    I'll see if I can demonstrate, but I have a few things to check out first.
     
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Why do y'all keep implying we're anything BUT nice here...hm? :pirate:

    Okay, this is the thing that has popped out at me, and I found your photo, otg, on the other thread on this topic (which I bumped up for us).

    Imagine a putter like the one you posted, only more rounded. I'm sure I've seen those in the past. Now apply that to the comminuted fracture--with the thingie coming off the putter at the position of that little jog of broken skull at the top right in the rotated, negative of the skull photo of the injury:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Can we rotate, flip, and overlay those images? I'll try.
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    What a good idea, Cherokee. Thanks for taking the time to do this. One can see this oval shape so much better in white. How I hope we can all agree on this! (?).
     
  5. otg

    otg Member

    DeeDee is correct about the “stolen” autopsy photos (Is that really surprising to anyone? :bow:) The first link below is a timeline, and then several articles about what happened:

    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/chronology/index9701.html
    http://m.rockymountainnews.com/news/1997/Jan/16/2-arrested-in-crime-photo-leak/
    http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/01/19-2.html
    http://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-la...tor-lab-employee-charged-selling-crime-photos

    And here is an opinion piece, written in the RMN by a someone at a PI firm in Colorado. I liked it because of the closing line, “Actually, given its success in obtaining evidence, maybe The Globe ought to take over the investigation. I understand that they at least have their own photo lab.” !ouch::
    http://www.denverpi.com/jonbenet.php

    I think that the photos published by The Globe (maybe someone else can research it or offer an opinion) were only of JonBenet’s wrists, the inside of her palm (showing the heart), and several photos of the ligatures. The autopsy photo of her skull showing the fractures was something Smit let out in his Ramsey Apology Tour (seems like that should be an appropriate acronym). The reason The Globe's leaked photos were so damaging is because they showed the knots tied on her, and the heart drawn in her palm -- things they would want to keep under wraps, if they ever had a suspect.

    BTW, kk, FOA = first of all. (Sorry.)

    Also, in my continuing effort to try and understand the AR, I’ve copied my translation without comments, and without the original terminology used by Meyer, and will post it following. I did leave it in separate lines rather than all one paragraph:
     
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    otg,

    Without the help of my other half who just couldn't get into it and has always been surprised by my interest in this case for years, and from doing my best to understand all the latest posts, I am now up the creek without a paddle. I am being honest when I say I'm confused. I never thought it was a golf club for many years, then I felt looking at the putter, maybe it could be (?). Now. I'm back to square one, but still want to keep interested in it, so how about I wish all of you here involved with all these graphics the best of luck, and I will do my best keep my interest going.

    otg I did glance at the autopsy photos, but that was all I could handle. I have to honour the people who do work in the medical field for all they do. I think they were all born in another planet! (?). Having said that I do think that all you here posting on this case have to be commended for all your excellent efforts. You all communicate very well together!

    I do agree with all you have said about Dr. Spitz. He should have been hauled over the coals for all his mistakes!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2013
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    "TWO Dummies" is right! :banghead::banghead:
     
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, speaking of being nice, it's y'all's turn. (Yeah, that's possessive plural for "y'all".)

    I've got as good an example as I'm going to get of the idea I had earlier today...oh, HOURS AGO. I've been scouring the net looking for pics of golf clubs to demonstrate, and I haven't found a "perfect match," of course, but I'm not a golfer and what the Ramseys might have had in the way of brands among the scores of clubs in their home the night of this murder I can't tell because those are also not revealed in anything I can remember or find quickly. (Anyone who has this info, please feel free to share, and thanks in advance.)

    Since I spent the day looking at golf clubs, I can now say I think the part that at long last jumped out at me in the fractured skull image you worked on, otg, could have been caused by the part of a golf club called the "hosel". It's where the shaft of the club attaches to the...um...foot? Okay, forgot what that's called, but the part you hit the ball with.

    Anyway, this technical golf club info is on the other thread, so I guess I could look that up again and post it here. Okay, let me do that after I post the photos I've spent the day working with. Like I said, they're not PERFECT matches for that comminuted fracture, but close enough to make me go HMMMMMM!

    Oh, I should say this is a PUTTER...you knew that. But it makes perfect sense, now that I think of it. More on that later.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here's the general diagram cynic posted on the other weapons thread of the parts of a club...it's not a putter, but close enough for me:

    [​IMG]

    So here's another photo that jumped out at me during my golf club hunt, which suddenly brought to mind other aspects of this case we've longed discussed about Burke hitting JB with that club in an accident in Charlevoix when she was 4ish and he was 8ish. Of course Burke could have continued to play golf as he grew older. Why wouldn't he?

    And do I need to mention how angry grown men get playing golf? Slamming their clubs into trees and such?

    I know this is all long-trodden paths of discussion and so nothing new, but now I realize that people practice with a PUTTER indoors. How many times have we seen that in movies and offices, etc.? It fits, I'm thinking.

    I also know people who have their own theories aren't necessarily going to change their minds over this, but here's the picture and then I'll finish up my thoughts in the next post:
     

    Attached Files:

  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So it occurred to me, that's a lot of coincidence:

    The comminuted skull fracture fits a putter.

    • There were at least four golf bags in the basement rooms, three with clubs we can see, and another set or two in the closet in Burke's train room.
    • John Ramsey inexplicably asked his sister-in-law Pam to retrieve "his" set of golf clubs when she was supposed to be gathering clothing for the family while the house was inaccessible to them and they were going to Atlanta to bury their murdered child. Also, it was Winter.
    • LE collected several golf clubs, as well, listed in the search warrants.
    • As mentioned, the previous golf injury to JonBenet's face in an accident involving Burke using a club.

    We could factor in speculation on tension within the family dynamics because of JonBenet's chronic vaginal injuries found at autopsy, the never-explained after-hours phone calls Patsy made to JonBenet's pediatrician, Dr. Beuf, on Dec. 17th, etc.

    So...any thoughts? Oh, go ahead, let me have it! I've got my big girl pants on.
     
  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, heck, sorry if I've not given credit where credit is due. I can't remember who did what here, but whoever, thanks so much because it gave me what may be an epiphany...for me, anyhow.

    So please just correct my mistakes and forgive me, and no tanties, please! :grouphug:
     
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    Either a putter or the heel of a club, KK! (?) I think either one could produce that oval shape I see! I do not have the energy of otg to buy clay and make a mould. He has to be admired for doing this!
     
  13. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    KK, what you've said and illustrated is EXACTLY what I've been saying on this thread and on the thread started by Cynic that you bumped, which was about whether the weapon was a golf club or a flashlight.

    A golf club would give exactly the right amount of swing to crack JonBenet's skull and also leave the type of injury we see in the photographs, with the extended force producing the crack going to her forehead.

    I also said the injury point corresponded with the part of the golf club where the shaft joined to the head. I'm not sure I used the word "hosel," but that was the exact same part of the club to which I was referring.

    I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of both the weapon and in the matching injury impact wound.

    All these years, I've always wondered what the weapon could have been, and after seeing all those golf clubs in the basement (including junior clubs), it suddenly clicked.
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I know you have made this argument for a while, Chero, as well as Moab and others. I saw your illustrations with the irons and that may be a better fit from an angle, so I have understood.

    But the part I hadn't visualized was the putter, when laid flat onto the head injury, would match so well. So that's the "click" that worked for me.

    Now, I'm not saying there is no argument against the putter. OTG's demo's and video animations seem to point another way.

    So I look forward to what he reveals about the rest of his thoughts on what he's been working on.

    I don't believe you've finished telling us, have you, OTG?

    Anyway, looking through old cd picture files for any photos of golf bags and clubs, I found one I'd completely forgotten because it's a black and white cheap print of a photo of JR's bag of clubs in the basement. It's very odd because there are two and they appear to be lined up for the photo, not how they were in the original basement hallway photo where they are opposite each other.

    In one bag I am almost convinced I see a putter that has a curved foot and a hosel that looks like it might match the position in question in the skull fracture. But the picture is a very blurred reproduction by the time I scan it from the black and white National Enquirer book and it's the only place I've ever seen it.

    Let me put those photos here. I have to say it gives me a bit of a chill to even imagine we might actually be looking at the golf club that killed her. Of course, that is probably wishful thinking...but JR did ask Pam to confiscate his golf bag for some reason other than golfing, IMO.

    Here's the one we've looked at a million times:

    [​IMG]

    Here is the best scan and enlargement I can do for the NE book photo of two golf bags, labeled as John Ramsey's golf bags in the book:
     

    Attached Files:

  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Also, for comparison and inclusion of all the golf bags and clubs of which we have seen photos from the house, here is Chero's library post of them:

    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=191974&postcount=24

    And from ACandyRose.com, here is a search warrant list of items removed from the home on Dec. 27th which includes a flashlight, golf clubs, bats, and even a hammer:

    http://www.acandyrose.com/s-Flight755-baggagecheck12271996.htm

     
  16. OpenMind4U

    OpenMind4U Member

    I'm in minority here:)...but when you're talking about the golf club with the reference to the 'SWING' motion (meaning from side to side) to crack JonBenet's skull - IMO, you're wrong.

    I do believe that blow happens exectly how Burke described: with UP-DOWN motion.

    And it's not easy to use the golf club with this kind of 'up-down' motion due to it's long shift (handle) and the nature of how golf clubs are typically constructed: to use with BOTH hands for balance and hence precise swing-power. Especially, by the person who used to 'handle' this kind of tool before, using the 'swing'.

    In addition, IMO, if by any chance the golf club has been used:

    - with 'up-down' motion and
    - was NOT holded by the end of the shift (let say it was holded in the middle of the shift) and
    - was holded by both hands upfront THEN...
    ... whoever used it to make such a powerfull blow - could be potentially injured him(her)self as well with the remaining shift going in reverse direction with the reverse force/energy. IMO, pretty dangerous to even test...so, otg, please be careful! :wave:

    I could be wrong with above. JMO and I'm still searching for an 'acceptable' probability with open mind, reading all your excellent posts!!!!

    Thank you for that! (...and sorry for being pain in :behind:...)
     
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    All this discussion of putters and clubs...I need to go to the store tomorrow and buy a couple of cantaloupes to practice on...Been thinking about it all weekend but I can't do anything like that with hubby around...He just wouldn't understand!
     
  18. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    OM4U, you misunderstood me.

    I didn't mean a swinging motion from side to side but a swinging motion up and down ...as in up and over JonBenet's head then crashing down on it.

    You are describing exactly what I see in my mind.
     
  19. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    KK, I'm VERY open to the weapon being a putter, but with rounded ends, not the sharp-pointed ends that OTG used in his experiment. A lot of the newer putters have those sharp-pointed ends as that is the style now, but the putters from 1996 were more rounded.

    So ... we need to be looking at clubs from that era, and it looks like a rounded putter could have been the weapon. As you said, KK, it's amazing how the putter image corresponds to JonBenet's injury. If that was the angle of attack, from above JonBenet's right side, then it would also explain why her skin didn't break open and bleed! It was the FLAT side of the putter that was used, not the sharper-end side.

    Good sleuthing, KK!
     
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    OM4U, IMO I don't believe an attacker could potentially injure themselves by swinging a golf club up over a shorter person's head. (EVERYONE in the Ramsey house was AT LEAST a foot taller than JonBenet.) All they had to do was swing the club up over their own head to get enough leverage to bring it down hard on shorter JonBenet's head, and the club would not touch them at all. There would be no measurable "reverse" bounce upwards from the skull as the skull would absorb the force, and THAT force is what caused the hole in JonBenet's skull and the crack going forward. That is the force/energy you are describing.
     
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