A Seven Iron

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Learnin, Sep 27, 2009.

  1. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I want to relate a small experiment which I finished today. I want to share this here before I mention it at Topix in order to get some feed back. I have taken the dimensions of the skull depression which was given by Dr. Meyers in the autopsy report. I've had this drawn on a piece of paper in my desk drawer and I've tried to match it to the various possible murder weapons.

    I devised an experiment. I selected a smooth barked tree to mimic a human skull. Without telling him what I was doing this for, I asked my 8 year old grandson to take his dad's 7 iron golf club ( I don't play golf so I had to "borrow" a club) and to swing it at a birch tree. I asked him not to swing his hardest....just to take a moderate swing at the tree using of course the end of club. This left a definite depression in the bark of the tree which was very close to the dimensions of a 7 iron.

    I wanted to see if an 8 year old could swing something hard enough to depress a skull and believe me, it is more than possible with a golf club. I believe it would be almost as easy to punch out a piece of skull as it would be to make a sizeable depression into a smooth barked tree. The only negative factor in this experiment is that a tree is immoveable while a child's head would give some with the blow.
  2. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    Well learnin, you could be in serious trouble with this one, I would be careful if I were you...not from the mindset of the experiment, but from swinging a borrowed golf club at a tree...::floor: we don't want you to be shot by whoever owns the golf club!

    It seems like a hundred years ago by now, but I did some golf club experimenting years ago, only mine wasn't so much about the impression but rather the speed and velocity of the club itself...golf clubs are made to deliver a certain amount of impact when coming into contact with an inanimate object (the ball) - or a tree, LOL. I have always contended a 9-year-old child could easily have done the damage that was done to JBR's skull IF a golf club was used. Having said that, I have also always thought that it would have been a wood and not an iron due to the fact that the skin wasn't broken but the skull was. The woods have more flexability to the shaft so less effort would have been needed from a child to produce what happened to her skull.
  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Good points. Yes, I wonder about an iron breaking the skin, also. It's just that the iron came very close to the measurements from the report. I suppose a wood could have done it if it struck at the right point. But I'm not going to whack a tree with one of my son in law's woods....
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    You're just kidding us, aren't you Moab? If golf club makers don't account for the hitting of trees, they must not have spent much time on a golf course!

    Good experiment, Learnin. Of course children can do serious damage to skulls in many ways. That's why they have helmets for t-ball. Team Ramsey wet themselves when someone stated that kind of force which caused the skull fracture would have killed a 300 lb. man. They twist it to this day as meaning it had to BE a man who struck the blow. Nonsense.

    I think there are a number of possibilities as to what was used as the bludgeon. You have seen Dr. Sptiz's photo and article about his experiment with the Maglight, right? He used a real child's cadaver, if memory serves, though the photo is with a type of wig model thingie. (Photo below.)

    Also, there were two bats found outside in the yard, and one was a metal softball bat, which I think belonged to Patsy. It certainly could have. There's a good photo around here somewhere of Patsy's women's softball team, though she's not in the photo. FFJ member Cookie here is the former Ramsey friend Judith Phillips and provided the photo and her story of the team and Patsy: "Mothers Gone Bad" was the team name, I think. The metal bat was outside, obviously tossed there at some point. Patsy made much about not recognizing it, but I think she was lying. I hope LE asked someone on her softball team or close friends if they'd ever seen the bat before. Surely they did...right? Because that metal bat was found on concrete and might have been the "scraping noise" the neighbor reported, IMO. LE should have cleared that up...right? (Photo below.)

    And I bring all that up because the comminuted fracture, the displaced bone, also fits the handle lip of a bat where you hold it, it appears to me. (There's a name for that, and I wrote about it somewhere around here...sigh...so little memory left.) The thing is, anytime the Ramseys denied knowlege of the simplest things found in their home or yard, I pay attention. Like "finding" the ransom note on the spiral stairs and jumping over it. Like "reading" the ransom note on the floor. Like not recognizing the pineapple and bowl and spoon, not Patsy's "setup". Like the Santa Bear on the bed JB won days before her murder. Like the Bloomies Patsy said JonBenet put on herself, and the package they withheld from LE for years. Like the Maglite and paintbrush, which Patsy could NOT say were theirs, as if the intruder brought in matching items somehow and used and left them. And like the softball bat, which Patsy seems to have no idea existed though she played on a team.

    Why would they lie about it if it doesn't mean anything? But lie they did, sending LE on one wild goose chase after a thousand.

    So the bats, the Maglight, the golf clubs...of which there were many. I know y'all have seen this photo (below), but I'll post it for easy reference, because I have always thought the "warmers" or whatever they're called on the ends of the clubs could have made the cushioning that kept the scalp from breaking:

    Attached Files:

  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here is the thread with Cookie's photo and description of the team and Patsy's part in it. Remember that Patsy is not in the photo, though. She wasn't there that day.


    If you go back a page on that thread, Judith tells who is whom in the photo. (It's a smaller photo on that page, so I put the url of the better photo.)
  6. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    It is interesting to note that John Ramsey was very concerned about retrieving his golf bag immediately after JonBenet's death.

    From p. 53 of JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas:

    Patsy awoke while he was gone and staggered from the bedroom to the couch, barely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteenth Street. John was over heard to ask someone quietly, “Did you get my golf bag?†When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. Neither bag was collected by police. Moreover, it was winter in Colorado, Michigan and Georgia, not exactly optimal golfing conditions. Why would a man whose daughter had just been murdered be wanting his golf clubs anyway? I wondered what else might have been in the bag that was so important that Ramsey would even think to ask about it.
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Amazing, isn't it, the priorities of the Ramseys as their child lay in the morgue...then the grave....

    They sure weren't focused on catching the killer.
  8. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    I think that is a wise move learnin...don't destroy your son-in-laws golf clubs!!! When I originally was thinking golf clubs I was thinking of the smaller woods...not the driver...I guess I was just thinking that the skull fracture could have been caused by the wood portion of the club coming in contact with the skull, not the face of the club (maybe you were not thinking face either), and I know some of my woods are the same size if not smaller than my irons...I really think you are on the right track though!
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2009
  9. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member


    Your point of golf in winter is a good one. I've said that all along. Where they were and where they were going was snowing. And so no golf. Just think of all that could be put into that golf bag and was.....spirited out of the house by CAP. Also I've thought that a kid could swing a golf club hard enough to do damage just because it is a golf club. However I lean towards the flashlight sitting on the counter in the kitchen wiped clean inside and out. Now who wipes off the batteries in their flashlight and why? The Ramseys owned one they said but that wasn't it. Yeah riiiight! Just like everything else lies lies and more lies. BTW did LE ever make them go find their flashlight that morning? hmmm
  10. Elle

    Elle Member


    It's good you tried this experiment. It seems Burke Ramsey thought nothing of hitting his young sister in the face with a golf club. It happened in 1994, and golf clubs were in the basement at Christmas time, 1996.

  11. Elle

    Elle Member


    Thanks for making me five years younger posting the thread with the golf clubs in the basement photos. I'm still puzzled at John Ramsey asking Pam Paugh for his clubs. We don't know enough about this request(?)

    Whatever happened to Cookie and Tom Miller's book?
  12. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    They couldn't get a US publisher because of Lin Wood's threats to sue ANYONE who printed an opinion and/or evidence the Ramseys were guilty. Lin Wood's past lawsuits (on behalf of the Ramseys) make publishers understandably gun shy about printing ANYTHING not favorable to the Ramseys.

    Cina Wong mentioned in her radio interview that Lin Wood sent her a threatening email demanding that she never divulge what she knew about the case, or he would sue her with a vengeance.

    Wendy Murphy was also threatened verbally with a lawsuit by Lin Wood over the phone unless she would quit stating her opinions regarding the Ramseys guilt. Being an attorney, and former prosecutor, Wendy could afford to tell Lin off, and tell about his threat.

    There is a pattern of bullying on the part of the Ramseys to keep people from telling what they know about the case.
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    Oh my goodness! Thank you, Cherokee. I know it was printed in Japan, and this was discussed. It was KK's post talking about Cookie which brought it all back. What a shame. Lin Wood is really a piece of work, isn't he?
  14. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    LOL! Yes, he is. You know, it's sad, but that's actually the nicest thing I've ever heard anyone say about Lin Wood. Usually, the adjectives are closer to words for garbage and bodily functions. :)
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Hm. Yes. Bullying. Bludgeoned and murdered child.

  16. madeleine_ws

    madeleine_ws Member

    I've seen that picture before but never noticed the golf clubs.Woah,there's always something new you didn't saw before.
    Please don't tell me those are the clubs LE never collected but which were removed by PR's sister!I know there were 2 bags right?Did PR's sister remove only one or both?Oh my,that bag in the pic,so close to the (alledged) crime scene&we have a head bash and they didn't collect it????? ((faint))
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, I won't tell you, then.

    Truth is, we don't actually know which clubs Pam hauled out. Maybe both. Thomas said she filled the trunk of the police car. I think someone on the RST once claimed LE made a "list" of what Pam took, but I've never seen it, so I have no idea if that's true, or if the cop who made it was careless about it, or what actually was spirited away that day by Pam. I doubt anyone knows now, except her and select members of Team Ramsey.

    Thomas called it "scortched earth" at the crime scene after Pam's raid. Can you imagine the prime suspects being allowed BY LE to send in their relative to load up a police car with evidence shortly after a child was found murdered in their home?

    It kind of makes Team Ramseys' endless claim that LE never found the roll of duct tape or cord in the home silly, doesn't it?
  18. madeleine_ws

    madeleine_ws Member

    All I can say is:banghead: and you know,sadly sometimes I dunno who I am most angry at,the R's or the other ones who didn't do their job!!!

    The first 36 hours,the freaking first 36 hours.That what matters most in a crime scene investigation.And you don't even have to be LE to know it!:banghead:
  19. madeleine_ws

    madeleine_ws Member

    And yes,the "cord and duct tape were never sourced to the house"-line is driving me nuts.What,can you state that they didn't belong to the R's only cause the R's say so???
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2009
  20. Voyager

    Voyager Active Member

    Aunt Pam...

    Speaking of Aunt Pam and the disturbed crime scene....I can't remember hearing if Aunt Pam's closet was check for the high-tech running shoes which made a print in the dust of the basement and about which the private investigators made such a high profile statement, saying that the footprint belonged to the murderer.

    Just asking, wasn't it possible that Aunt Pam was down in the basement "collecting" before the house was completely dusted for prints and all the evidence collected at the crime scene? I rather think so.

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