Ah ha! John LIED About Pineapple!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by YumYum012, Jul 15, 2006.

  1. YumYum012

    YumYum012 Member

    I found a gaping hole in John's testimony about the Large spoon, and his assertion that his kids wouldn't use such a big spoon. He also claimed, over and over again that the bowl was LARGE. It wasn't ... and here's how I know.

    Look at this pic:


    John claims that we are looking at a LARGE serving type spoon and a LARGE bowl with a LOT of Pineapple (or whatever) in it. That's bullsmit.

    Look at the paper teabag tab hanging outside of the glass. Now ... consider the sizes of the things we are looking at. Think of spatial relations, and how things closer seem bigger than if they were further away.

    LOOK at the size of the teabag tab in relationship to the bowl of the spoon. That tab LOOKS like it would cover most of that spoon bowl. That suggests that the spoon is no larger than teaspoon size. With the LARGE SPOON in the foreground, it would seem bigger in relation to the teabag tab than it actually is. Instead ... the OPPOSITE is true!

    Clearly ... John Lied.

    Try the teabag tab/teaspoon versus serving spoon experiment at home.

    And now that we KNOW that the spoon is a teaspoon (or smaller), it's easy to gauge the size of the bowl. Try it at home. Put a teaspoon in a regular soup bowl ... and a large mixing bowl ... and compare what that looks like compared to what we KNOW is a teaspoon (or smaller) in the pic. The bowl is obviously a standard, single serving household soup bowl.

    Clearly ... John Lied.

    We KNOW ... now ... that John LIED about the pineapple. But why? Why would John feel compelled to LIE about a simple bowl of pineapple?

    Interesting, ain't it?

    I'm agonna need ta peruse them depositions agin. I betcha, wit dis knowledge in hand, sumphin else of interest is likely ta pop up.

    LOL ... I apologize if you have already gone over this idea ad nauseum ... but it was a new revelation to moi.

  2. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    I remember reading in the 6/98 PR interview (Line 0474) PR recognized the small white bowl as one from the "salsa set" - which I pictured in my mind, as a small bowl. The large bowl/spoon comments always confused me. I concluded the bowl was small which made the spoon appear larger, like in the photo.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  3. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    Sandy Stranger had a feeling at the time that they were supposed to be the happiest days of her life, and on her tenth birthday she said so to her best friend Jenny Gray who had been asked to tea at Sandy's house. The speciality of the feast was pineapple cubes with cream, and the speciality of the day was that they were left to themselves. To Sandy the unfamiliar pineapple had the authentic taste and appearance of happiness and she focussed her small eyes closely on the pale gold cubes before she scooped them up in her spoon, and she thought the sharp taste on her tongue was that of a special happiness, which had nothing to do with eating, and was different from the happiness of play that one enjoyed unawares. Both girls saved the cream to the last, then ate it in spoonfuls.

    That is fromThe Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. Tea, spoon, pineapple and that looks like cream in the bowl too, from the picture.
  4. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Wow, very interesting and certainly "food" for thought
  5. Freebird

    Freebird Active Member

    Comparing the width of the spoon mouth with the spoon handle it still looks like a tablespoon to me, and kids don't shy away from eating with one. John has no clue about kids if he thinks otherwise.
  6. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    I agree, it looks like a teaspoon or tablespoon - not a big serving spoon.
  7. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    We KNOW ... now ... that John LIED about the pineapple. But why? Why would John feel compelled to LIE about a simple bowl of pineapple?

    He may not have lied. It is difficult to discern intent. He may have only overstated the size due to a lack of time spent on examining the bowl. Of course, a larger bowl would be less likely to be handled successfuly by children. So in his mind he saw a larger bowl, thus excluding his kids. But not his wife.

    Patsy's comment about that not being her "set-up" sounded earnest. But that "set-up" could have belonged to the split-off personality that was in charge at that time.

    The above stated similarities to TPOMJB are just too much for coincidence. Patsy's ablility to withstand interrogation by police and to pass polygraphs and to go on with life after killing her daughter may be due to the dissociation that occurs with MPD/DID.

    I think her insistence on finding the killer may be due to her narcissistic self interest: she was more curious about her "condition" than she was concerned for her daughter.

    This could explain Patsy decorating a room in the Atlanta home with pineapple wall paper. Pineapple was "happiness", HER happiness. She needed a reminder of her happiness even though pineapple was JB's last meal.
  8. Why_Nut

    Why_Nut FFJ Senior Member

    I took a picture of the setup here, with a tablespoon, an ordinary cereal bowl (6.5 inches across at its widest), and an ordinary Lipton teabag in an ordinary drinking glass. You are right: The proportions are certainly unremarkable and not indicative in any way of some huge bowl with some huge spoon being setup in some extraordinary way. From what John and Patsy said, I got the impression the bowl must have been the size of a fruit bowl and the spoon the size of some ladle. Now, that all goes by the wayside.


  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Gosh, this is interesting stuff. Thanks for bringing this up, YumYum.

    Paradox, that's very stunning, the Miss Brody stuff.

    Oh, how I wish Cookie would answer a few questions for us. Like did she ever see Patsy put out pineapple and cream? Oh Cookie....

    I once tried twice to ask Cookie if she'd ever seen anyone in the Ramsey family or household drink tea in a glass like that. Either she missed my question, or she has her reasons.

    But that's the only way we're ever going to know the answers to such things. And jams, who says she heard/saw the tape of the LE sponsored interview with Burke, says Burke was not even asked about this. I think that interview was within a month or two of the murder, but I'd have to check to be certain. If so, maybe they hadn't noticed it yet, as Schiller brings up that question in his lastest program.
  10. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    Thanks. I've known about the pineapple for a long time. But with the recent Court TV piece I thought to check for tea as well, and there it was all the time, in the book. Then I wanted to get hold of Schiller to see if he knew if there was cream in the bowl. But the photo was supplied by YY, and sure enough there was the cream as well.
  11. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    Also I noticed in the 6/98 JR interview re the "set up" (line 0214 I believe) JR mentions "milk"
  12. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    Milk? It's cream. Why would John lie about the cream? He's such a liar.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, maybe John said milk not really meaning to lie, but just isn't that discerning. Maybe he didn't even know the difference. Milk, cream, both come from milk.

    But I gotta' tell you, Paradox, you have really found something here. Because if Patsy is/was known to put milk/cream in a bowl with pineapple...she lied. AGAIN.

    Problem is, we really don't have anyone stating anywhere that Patsy did this routinely.

    But it is her house, her table, her bowl, and her pineapple and cream/milk. Her fingerprints are on the bowl. Or is the RST going to argue the intruder brought his own pineapple, spoon, AND MILK?

    Damn! Ok, that's good enough for me. Burke and Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl. Burke's fingerprints on the glass. One or both of them are connected to that bowl of pineapple.

    Now, why would Patsy lie about that? She wanted to find that intruder, didn't she? What's the advantage to confusing LE about the darn bowl and pineapple?

    She could see the milk in the bowl with the pineapple. Why wouldn't she say at least, oh, yeah, we eat it that way?

    She had to have a reason to lie about that. When the Ramseys lie about something so common and simple, as we've said before, it means there is something here they are afraid of LE finding out.

    JonBenet ate that pineapple after she came home. I always held open that maybe there was another explanation, but now, I'm convinced she ate it that night after they got home.

    Schiller tried hard to put across that JonBenet sat down with her killer and ate the pineapple and one of them drank the tea. He must have been told and seen some kind of evidence that LE thinks she ate it after coming home. While he tried to spin this into the ridiculous "intruder sat and fed her" theory, what I am convinced of is that LE does think JonBenet ate the pineapple that night afer returning home.

    So...either Patsy or John or Burke or JonBenet, or some combination of those four, sat out the bowl of pineapple and poured cream/milk in it and put the tea bag into a glass with water. Obviously, the tea was drunk.

    Patsy and Burke's fingerprints on the bowl. Patsy's could have been there from putting it up after washing it. Burke's...I don't think he'd be doing dishes. So Patsy and Burke handled the bowl, either one could have put it out that night. Burke's fingerprint is on the tea glass. Did he put out the pineapple, pour the milk, make a glass of tea?

    Patsy said it was "not my setup," that she'd never put it out like that. I'll have to go back and reread this part of her '98 interview.

    Hmmm. Why has LE never tested that tea glass and spoon for DNA?

    I mean, that pineapple in JonBenet's stomach has been argued about to the ends of the earth. Thomas said it matched the pineapple on the table, if I'm remembering correctly. So why wouldn't they test the glass and spoon for DNA? That's absurd! It's like not getting a subpoena for phone records!
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2006
  14. YumYum012

    YumYum012 Member

    PairOfDocs ... GREAT FIND! Here's a pic of pineapple Sandy and Miss Jean Brody (how closely does Patsy identify with her?):


    and here is a link to a brief description of the 1969 (an impressionable time for PAtsy) movie:


    I think I've seen the movie on TV, but it doesn't rank with something like Cool Hand Luke for moi. But NOW, I just may have to hit up BlockBuster for another look see.

    I sure would like to know whether or not Judith Phillips, or other former Patsy friends have any memories of whether this was a favorite novel or film of Patsy's. Did Jambo have cream and pineapple when she had tea with Patsy? For some reason, I have the impression that Patsy somehow models her life from movie scenes, and literary passages. Is "The Prime..." part of that construct?

    And Paradox ... you are correct ... we don't know that John LIED as I proclaimed. That was just me getting attention. We can't know John's intent. But what we DO know is that the autopsy had been made public, and a big deal had been made about the pineapple BEFORE John's deposition. It was potentially DANGEROUS territory for the Ramseys since they claimed that JonBenet was never awake after returning from the Whites. When reading the related portions of John's deposition, I am struck by his REPEATED attempts to suggest that the table scene in no way reflected reality in his home. He seems to strive to give the impression that EVERYTHING in the picture is somehow out of place. Patsy handles the subject matter similarly. Both mistaken regarding this KEY area of interest? Mistaken, or misleading?

    Let me repeat that ... John seems to strive to give the impression that EVERYTHING in the picture is somehow out of place. That smacks of 'consciousness of guilt', does it not?

    He knows what his own dishes look like ,,, and how they are configured sizewise. He knows that Patsy serves up pineapples and cream. And note, the pineapple chunks would have had to have been HUGE if that bowl and spoon was as large as John would have us believe.

    And John makes a special point of indicating that the spoon was from the "good" silverware set ... and not something the kids would choose. But think about it ... the fine silver is EXACTLY what we might expect Patsy to choose over the holidays. The silverware was not "put away". It was out, and in use ... and Patsy soooOOoo loves the tea party.

    This SCREAMS consciousness of guilt.

    And WhyNut ... Thanks for the excellent side-by-side comparison photo. It helps greatly.

  15. YumYum012

    YumYum012 Member

    I found something that might be of interest ... a post at Websleuths (one 'B') from December, 2003. Here's the link to the thread:


    And here's the post without comment:

    BrotherMoon 12-18-2003 02:08 PM
    Well put Maxi. Evidence of Patsy's prgressive psychosis can be found in the change of pageant costuming for JonBenet through time and possibly in the frequency of JonBenet's visits to the doctor and her bed wetting.

    Personal psychology comes before religion, philosophy or social interaction. The theme of religion in her crime overlays psychopathology. The Psalms were not the motive for what she did, they provided her with authority and justification for what she wanted to do. She had urges to USE JonBenet early in the child's life, maybe before she was born. That urge was acted apon bit by bit, eventually JonBenet was integrated into Patsy's personal fantasy that revolved around her relationship with a supernatural being. Patsy's private ruminations about her own God/Evil nature and her relationship to her God were well developed in her adolescence. I refer you all to The Prime Of Miss Jean Brodie. Please read the book and play and watch the movie.

    Jean Brodie was a pathological narcissist. Sandy Stranger struggled to free herself from her influence. This story parallels Patsy's psychological development and needs; to free herself from her own narcissism or from the influence of Nedra who gives all the appearences of having been an intrusive narcissist herself.
    Patsy identified with the characters of this story to an extraordinary degree to the point that they became split-off persona complexes, elements in her own unfinished maturation.


    Patsy found a later identification with the character in the Psalms as her adult life went along on it's path of digression. The wreckage of her life was compensated by fantasy and a regression into childhood, into unfinished business, into unattended needs. And she lost control. Her attempt to control involved inventing her own God and interpreting The Psalms in a self serving manner. In the end she could not see the difference between her infantile retentive self and her God and probably didn't want to, just as she couldn't tell the difference between herself and JonBenet.

    As far as evidence of a psychosis, it is there, and would become more evident if all the details of her life were to come out. Psychoses run in a gradient, at the beginning the symptoms are not seen as pathological. In fact they are often seen as positive creative qualities. I refer to all the visionary experiences of the prophets of the OLd and New Testament.

    Chistianity did not fail Patsy Ramsey, she failed it.

    Interesting, no?

  16. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, this whole thread is very interesting.

    I'm very impressed how you all sleuthed and found out the real truth.

    Paradox, your Prime of Miss Jean info is really a jaw dropper.

    Until this thread I had never heard of or thought of serving or eating pineapple with cream or milk. Peaches yes, pineapple never.
  17. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    YumYum, when you watch the movie, pay attention to the color of Miss Brodie's dresses. Most of them are some shade of purple. And the portrait that Lloyd does of her has a purple dress. Purple had a place in Christmas '96 according to Patsy.

    If you read the book, pay attention to the special qualities of the members of the Brodie set, they match Patsy's activities and interests in her life.
  18. YumYum012

    YumYum012 Member

    I'll watch for that, Paradox.

    How would WhyNut answer the prosecutors’ questions about the picture of her spoon, bowl, pineapple, glass and teabag if the roles with the Ramseys were reversed? Assuming that she didn’t know or remember how they got there, etc, how would she answer the inquiries? Would she seek every opportunity to mislead or misrepresent what the picture depicted, or might have depicted?

    Wouldn’t the answers be very simple? Like, "I can’t tell from the pic if that is a large mixing bowl, or a cereal bowl. They are from the same set of dishes, and are the same shape … just different sizes."

    Same with the spoon. "I can’t tell if it’s a teaspoon or a serving spoon from the pic."

    And "Yes, that spoon is from my more formal silverware set, but at this time of the year, it’s out and handy. No, I’m not surprised to see it out. No … I don’t know how or when all of that was put there. No … I don’t remember seeing it last night when I was doing final cleanup in prep for our early travel plans in the morning. Yes, I cleared that table before going to bed. Yes there was pineapple in the fridge. Yes, the kids sometimes fend for themselves and might have gotten their own pineapples and cream. Yes, they might have used the good silver if it was handy."

    No song and dance … or bobbing and weaving. No need to. No need to provide a suspiciously one-sided explanation that leads away from what might seem like an undesirable conclusion. “I don’t know†is essentially the answer to most of the questions … but that’s not what prosecutors got from the Ramseys. They got song and dance … they got the scenic tour ... AWAY from the scene of the crime.

    I don’t have time to do it right now, but I would BET Jambo’s left nut that if you took John and Patsy’s depositions and answered the pineapple related questions yourselves with an innocent, clear conscience, the difference between YOUR answers and the Ramseys’ answers would be STARK!

    … I encourage you to TRY THIS AT HOME. Put yourselves in an "innocent" Ramsey position ... then, Type out YOUR answers to the deposition questions right after the Ramsey acual answers. Can you say, “Epiphany� Sure ya can. Try it.

  19. wombat

    wombat Member

    Do we know which section of the Prime of Miss Jean Brodie play Patsy read at the Miss West Virginia pageant?
  20. YumYum012

    YumYum012 Member

    I don't know the selection. However, Patsy's love of "The Prime of ..." goes further back than her Miss West Virginnie days. According to ACandyRose's index on the Ramsey's own book, "Death of Innocence", Patsy did a speech in HIGH SCHOOL on "The Prime..." Here is the ACR index as it reads:

    Patsy Ramsey did The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie for speech in high school · 289

    I assume that 289 refers to the page number. I don't have the book ... but would love to hear from someone who does.

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