Autopsy questions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    From Anna Nicole Smith's autopsy report (bold type mine):
    In JonBenet's autopsy report, flattening of the gyri and narrowing of the sulci are mentioned also, and it was said that this indicated brain swelling. I haven't followed the Anna Nicole Smith case, but it seems she died from medication overdose and had no head injury. .

    It would interest me why "flattening of the gyri and narrowing of the sulci" are mentioned at all in an autopsy report, i.e. is "flattening of the gyri and narrowing of the sulci" a pathological condition or not?

    Or to ask differently: do there exist 'unflattend gyri' and 'un-narrowed sulci' also? Is this the normal medical condition?

    - What exactly does flattening of the gyri and narrowing of the sulci mean medically speaking? What causes it?
    - Can a brain also swell without there being a head injury (for example from medication overdose like in Anna Nicole Smit's case)?

    TIA for helping to answer these questions.
  2. heymom

    heymom Member

    This may be helpful.

     Defined:
    – Anoxia-Complete loss of oxygen to the brain
    – Hypoxia-Partial loss of oxygen to the brain
    Mechanisms of cell death
     Anoxia interferes with the function of neurons causing swelling of mitochondria due to loss of their ability to process glucose and lack of energy production for the use of other organelles and membranes in the cells.
    •Neurons are most susceptible to anoxia followed by oligodendroglia, astrocytes and connective tissue.,
    The brains of patients who become anoxic are usually swollen with flattening of the gyri and narrowing of the sulci and decreased size of the ventricles.
    The Anoxic Brain
    Common Causes
     Stroke
     Heart Attack/Arrhythmia
     Trauma-lungs/body core
     Near Drowning
     Carbon Monoxide
     Shock
     Attempt by brain to maintain homeostasis
     If damage occurs to core of body and large blood loss occurs, brain vessels alter size and function to maintain blood supply as long as possible
    Greatest Susceptibility
     Hippocampus
     Basal Ganglia
     Purkinje Cells of Cerebellum
     Occipital/Parietal lobe
     Cerebral Cortex

    The full document:

    Looks like coma and oxygen deprivation is what causes the gyri to flatten, and it doesn't seem to be injury-dependant.
  3. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    Flattening and narrowing of the gyri, sulci as well as of the gimble and the wabe are typical of female brains.
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    Paradox, you are skating on very thin ice here.

    :bigstick: :rs:
  5. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Man o man, you would fit in well as a guest of the Hatter and the March Hare in Alice in Wonderland. :D

    And while you move around in paradoxical Wonderland, you should also take a closer look at Humpty Dumpty who said:

    "Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
    did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
    all mimsy were the borogoves
    And the mome raths outgrabe."

    Paradox, I'm sure there are 'secret clues' in Humpty Dumpty's poem. BTW, has his alibi been checked for Dec 26th/06? See, another blunder by the Boulder cops, overlooking him. Imo you should add Humpty to your list of supects next to Sandy Stranger. I never trusted that egg-shaped creature anyway. :)
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    Humpty Dumpty said that, rashomon? I think I just fell through the ice. :)
  7. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Humpty Dumpty explained the meaning of the poem which Alice recited - sorry, my goof. :)

    [P.S. I have received your test email, and have copied and pasted mine again into the reply - I hope it will go trough this time ].
  8. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    This is what narrowing and flattening of the gyri and sulci does to women.
  9. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    LOL, touché, Paradox - good retort, I'll have to give you that. :D
    Now that Humpty has been cleared as a suspect, and Alice has never been "under the umbrella" anyway, we're back to square one. :jester:
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  10. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Thanks so much heymom for the info. So oxygen deprivation can cause brain swelling too - very interesting.

    Re JB's head wound: IDIs have brought up the argument that, if JonBenet had been alive for some time after the head blow, her brain should have shown more swelling than just 'mild' flattening of the gyri.
    But does a brain always swell a lot after a head trauma?
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    It depends. Of course, with any head injury, swelling is always limited by the skull, so the brain can only expand so far. That's why doctors will cut a piece of skull out or put shunts in if someone has a serious injury, so the brain can swell up without causing further injury to itself.

    JonBenet's injury would have caused a lot of brain swelling, I believe. As much as would be possible with that kind of fracture, again allowing for the limitation of the skull. It was a very extensive fracture. Then again, wasn't there a displacement of a piece of the skull? If so, the brain could have expanded in that area and some of the pressure against the skull could have been relieved.
  12. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Yes, a rectangular piece of bone had been punched out. But the autopsy report doesn't mention any other brain swelling/expanding aside from the mild flattening of the gyri and narrowing of the sulci.
    If the brain had expanded through the punched out piece of bone, wouldn't the coroner have noticed a 'bump' from the outside before cutting up the scalp?
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    I haven't a clue what Humpty Dumpty said, or what Alice recited, rashamon. After all these years I've plain forgotten. I was teasing you. :) I just couldn't resist when I saw the penguin going through the ice. I joined it! OF course, with you being a Kindergarten teacher you could teach us all quite a lot. It would be a nice change.

    Yes, this time around I did receive it and replied. Hope it went through okay.

    Sorry for the interruption posters. Carry on!
  14. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Question re brain swelling

    Aditional info on brain swelling:

    Brain swelling, intracranial pressure, etc:

    A Guide to Brain Anatomy

    Symptom: Bleeding in the brain

    How Can The Brain Be Injured?

    Do brains who have sustained a comparable head wound like JonBenet always show massive swelling if the victim is alive for some time after the head blow?
    For it has been argued (mainly by IDIs) that the only MILD swelling of JohnBenet's brain ("mild flattening of the gyri and narrowing of the sulci") indicates that she only lived for a very short time after the head injury.

    In that context it would also be interesting to read what actor William Holden's autopsy report says about the stage of brain swelling he had.
    For he sustained a brain injury (he stumbled and fell while being drunk) and stayed alive for some time afterward.
  15. Elle

    Elle Member

    Of course, the Ramseys were anxious to fly the body away from Boulder as fast they could have JonBenét's body returned to them. With JonBenét buried in Atlanta, it is not so convenient for the body to be exhumed and checked for all the clues that weren't found at the time of the autopsy.

    The Ramseys were inconsiderate to their daughter, JonBenét, in not having her body close at hand for further forensic examination, to find the true killer. I feel this action threw more suspicion on the Ramseys.

    Wouldn't it have been wiser if the Ramseys had nothing to fear, to have had their daughter, JonBenét preserved for further examination to find the killer? They themselves took off like lightning and left Boulder, because they couldn't face looking at all the people who knew the Ramseys themselves were involved.
  16. heymom

    heymom Member

    I can tell you that with my son's fall, he had a contusion on the right side of his brain, where his skull fractured. There wasn't much swelling but there was some...not enough to put in a shunt or do anything about it. You could see the area of brusing or bleeding on the CT scan.

    The neurologist characterized his fracture as mild to minor. With a severe fracture I would bet there would be a LOT of swelling if the person was still alive. What about Dr. Atkins - he lived for a couple of days after his fall. Didn't he have brain swelling?
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    I think we need a brain surgeon posting here, rashomon. Texan is a surgical nurse. Maybe she can come up with some answers (?).
  18. heymom

    heymom Member

    Yet another neon sign that points right back to John and Patsy being involved in JonBenet's death - as painful as it might be, if it were my child who'd been murdered, I'd want the police to keep his body as long as they needed to find out what happened and who did it.
  19. AMES

    AMES Member

    Yeah, you and me both...and most likely every single other parent in America..or the world. I still don't believe that it would be to late for a second autopsy...I mean, if John would approve it, but we all know that hell will freeze over first. Heaven forbid they find something that they missed the first time, that might land his butt in jail.
  20. Little

    Little Member

    I'm not sure but I don't think that it would need John's approval if it was court ordered.

    That would also resolve the stun gun issue.

    Last edited: Jan 31, 2008
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