Autopsy questions

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    Here is the pic of the skull at autopsy. I separated it out of the group pictures in case you didn't want to see those.

    http://zyberzoom.com/Crackedskull.jpg

    The comminuted skull fracture is at the top of the head. I cannot envision how Patsy could have done this to JonBenet's head without damaging her neck in a "throwing" or "banging against something" theory. Remember this isn't JUST a comminuted skull fracture, but her skull was almost FULLY CRACKED IN HALF. That's a lot of force.

    Perhaps I'll just have to disagree while saying I honestly don't know the answers. I wish we had a medical examiner who would grace us in layman's terms with a complete explanation about all this.
     
  2. heymom

    heymom Member

    When my son hit the ground and fractured his skull, he was going perhaps 7 mph? That is a rough guess, but he had a lot of momentum and hit the ground hard, yet he got only a mild to moderate fracture with no bone punched out and ;ittle interior swelling. He had a little bleeding inside his brain, but it caused him no symptoms after the accident. I saw his CAT scan and you can see the break, but it's not horrible. He did have swelling on that side of his head. When JonBenet's skull was cracked as it was, she would have been unconscious from then on. And I would imagine her head would have been very swollen in that area.

    Having just had experience with a child getting an accidental skull fracture, I cannot believe that JonBenet's fracture was the result of an accidental toss against any surface or even a protruding object. She might have been injured from such an accident, maybe knocked out, but that crack was caused by a tremendous force. Whoever hit her meant to hurt her, maybe was angry enough to want to kill her. And, the person had the physical strength to wield an object that did the job. For myself, I have a tough time believing Patsy was that strong. I can see her losing her temper at JonBenet, and maybe being rough with her, but I can't see the head blow coming from Patsy. I know many people here don't see John as the prime suspect, but he's there for me.

    Dang, that hole looks like the shape of a putter to me. "Did you get my golf clubs?" said JR to Pam Paugh.
     
  3. heymom

    heymom Member

    This description makes me think how fortunate we were than our son wasn't dead or severely brain damaged when he fell off his skateboard. God really just spared him. I try to remember that when he's acting like any old 14-year-old boy.


    :video:
     
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I agree with you heymom, in the blow being very forceful and deliberate, not a fall or throw.

    But I disagree with the idea a bat or heavy metal maglight or golf club, with the physics of a hard swing on top of a six year old skull, needed a strong man to inflict that kind of damage. If children with hard bats weren't dangerous enough to cause head injury, why do t-ball players wear helmets? Why do manufacturers make bats for small children out of soft materials?

    I'm not saying that it couldn't have been John. Just that it didn't HAVE to be John, as far as I can tell.

    Looking at the wikipedia definitions, I don't think JonBenet's fracture happened along the line where her skull hadn't fused strongly, right? That would have taken less strenth, but it doesn't look like that was the case to me.
     
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I know, heymom. My son was a skateboarder, and looking back, I had no idea.... Scares me to think about it.
     
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    Lawyers?
     
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    Best not to think about it, if he's not skating now. When I see kids on a board w/o a helmet I want to stop and yell at them...as if that would do any good!

    I can tell you I will never, ever be the same after that day. Never.
     
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    This might help us because it's about skull fractures in children:

    http://www.sbstruth.com/Fractures.htm

     
  10. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    I changed my mind. I think a round object like the edge of a flashlight could have made the hole in the skull.
     
  11. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I vacillate between the heavy maglight and a golf club. Possibly the bat, but there was also something else mentioned on some sites on the case. In some of the crime scene photos of the wineceller, there is a log grabber (from a set of fireplace tools) lying on the floor against the wall a few feet from the door and a few feet from where the body was. I am sure the Rs had a fireplace, so the wineceller was an odd place for it to be.
    From the descriptions of a depressed fracture, and also from her autopsy- I think that JBR's misplaced piece of skull was actually forced inward, though it did not seem to go into the brain. I don't recall ever seeing that her skull or face was swollen- either as observed by LA when she was "found" or by the coroner. This may be why he also felt there was an hour or less from the skull fracture to her death. If she'd lived longer, there would have been much more swelling.
     
  12. JoeJame

    JoeJame member

    I agree with you DeeDee. That log grabber always bothered me down there.
    I do feel as if JonBenet was hit deliberately to kill her. I know nothing is etched in stone. But I've been around children enough, that I do believe JonBenet's was deliberate. Whoever killed her wanted her dead. Or was mad enough to want her dead at "that" time.
    Anger can make someone do a lot of things. But to continue to live had to take a lot of denial. And that is likely.
     
  13. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Thanks for the link, KK.
    Interesting that it says depressed skull fractures can be made through impact with flat surfaces also.
     
  14. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    I looked at the picture again where Dr. Spitz is doing the experiment and can see it now too. Since it is only a part of the round object which has the impact with the skull, this part indeed has a roughly rectangular shape.
    Also, it can be assumed that Spitz conducted the experiment with actually cracking a model of a skull (or even a real skull - IIRC, Dr. Spitz does experiments with dead bodies also), and the maglite did produce a rectanguar punched-out hole in the skull.

    But I'm not sure if the maglite WAS the weapon though. I think another object could have produced this wound also. Maybe her head was slammed against the bedpost?

    http://crimeshots.com/CrimeScene2.html

    Even impact with a flat surface can produce a punched-out hole in the skull (see the part I bolded in the quote of the # 73 post - the link is from KK).
     
  15. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    skull fracture

    The word displaced in this context doesn't mean that the bone came up out of the fracture - it simply means the bone was moved from it's original position and most likely means that it was pushed inward. ( This is in answer to a poster who seemed confused about this term)
    I believe that the fracture is probably the result of an object being brought down with enough force to cause the displaced fracture and the linear fracture was secondary to that fracture. I base that belief on the location of the fracture. It would be an awkward situation that would cause a child to have a fracture that high on the side of the skull. She would have to fall sideways and be almost upside down (imo)
    Also - I am not a golfer but if you hit someone with a golf club, wouldn't you hit them with the back of the bottom part of the club? I was wondering because if she was hit with a golf club it would have to be with the side of the bottom part of the club. I tend to believe she was hit with the maglite because it fits the depressed fracture well and because the maglite/batteries had no fingerprints.
     
  16. Voyager

    Voyager Active Member

    Hi Texan...

    I agree with you about the maglite flashlight being the weapon that caused JonBenet's injury. I have thought this since the first time I heard about the maglite, where it was found and that it had been wiped clean (including the batteries wiped clean of prints).

    It always seemed to me that rather than stun gunning a pig and wiggling himself down an impossible basement window, Louser Smit might have worked on measurements of the maglite and skull fracture, and displacement force experiments with the maglite and a skull (an actual likely piece of evidence found in the home where the murder occured)....Surely such experiments would have been much more productive than the foolish antics that Louser performed and publisized so dramatically.

    Voyager
     
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, Texan. I love it when you medical professionals give us the benefit of your expertise. You da bomb!

    I also agree that the linear fracture is part of the equation that can't be left out. Reading the info, it seems the original comminuted fracture led to the linear fracture, which means that the force was tremendous. So again, how did that happen on the top/side of her head without breaking/injuring her neck in a fall or throw?
     
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, Voyager, it is amazing the lengths Smit went to only to end up with "possibly" and "maybe" and "could have" regarding dust ruffles and suitcases and packing peanuts and a mark on the wall. Especially when he had the ACTUAL EVIDENCE NO INTRUDER WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THOSE PROVIDED BY THE RAMSEYS THEMSELVES!

    If memory serves, Dr. Spitzer did use actual corpses to test the maglight against the injury to JonBenet's head, didn't he? I think I remember reading that at some point.
     
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    DeeDee and JoeJame, can you remember where that photo might be online, with the fire poker/log jammer? The reason I ask is...and don't quote me on this...it seems that once upon a time, that fire poker turned out to be a false photo...? Staged by someone? Can't really remember exactly, though, and may be mistaken, but it was discussed, so if you have the picture url handy, it might jog my or someone else's memory on this. Thanks in advance.
     
  20. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    A doctor who posts on another forum (her credentials have been verified by the board admin) is of the same opinion. She also pointed out that if JonBenet's head had been slammed against a hard and flat surface, the brain would have shown indicators of a 'contrecoup' injury, but there was only very minimal contusion at the tip of the left temporal lobe.
    From the autopsy report:
    Am I reading this right: the punched-out piece of bone was on the right side of the skull toward the back of the head ('posteroparietal')?

    And the energy from that blow then 'spread', producing the linear to comminuted skull fracture?

    [Thanks so much btw Texan for directing me to the book about the Penny Scaggs case: "The Good Wife"]. I have devoured that book - fascinating, isn't it, how the defense (despite overwhelming evidence against Penny's husband!) tried to build their case on unsourced DNA under the victim's fingernails - DNA which in all probability got there through lab contamination, although it was a very reputable lab in which the testing was done.
    Who knows if the DNA containing nine markers on JonBenet's underwear didn't get there through lab contamination also ...

    This tragic case is very interesting to compare to the Ramsey case in another respect also, since it shows how much lying and deceit can be hidden behind the sugar-coated facade of the 'perfect couple']
     
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