Bonita Papers

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. Karen

    Karen Member

    Well I am skimming over the Bonita Papers again and I find myself sqirming around in my seat and frowning all the time. There are just so many things in there that are incredible (unbelievable) and that are never discussed. Does anybody want to go over this document again and pick out some of the things that don't seem true? I've been wanting to do this for a very long time because there are just so many things that I question. I put this here instead of the Bonita Papers thread because i thought we could just go read over there and post back here. So anyway if anyone is game please go read them over and then join in. I'll start with one thing I'm having trouble believing.
    Not a quote, just from what I remember:

    Patsy's chin had started to recede so she had chin reconstruction surgery in the summer of 1996.

    First of all I wonder if this is true at all. It seems like just having been declared healthy from stage 4 ovarian cancer and going through all that heavy chemo and whatever else she had to do I wonder if Patsys receding chin was really so important to her that she would go through a medical procedure to correct it. Now I know everything about Patsy and her family had to perfect but to go this far after the cancer treatments seems a bit extreme to me. And I have never read about this anywhere else. But the biggie to me is this happened in the summer of 1996?? Is that the summer she went to Texas and came back with a big diamond ring on her finger?( I think I'm going to go look at some Patsy pictures and compare the old chin with the new chin.) I'll post back here tomorrow with my opinion because it's getting really late and I need to go to bed. If anybody else cares to go look let me know what you think. But in the meantime, what say you all to this revelation?
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, those Bonita Papers have always fascinated me too, Karen. Every now and then I fall over them and get trapped for a spell. I don't really have the time right now, but going by what you have just stated, I hardly think Patsy would go though the agony of more medical procedures after chemo therapy treatment.

    Are you looking at this with the thought Patsy may well have been worn out and frazzled with all the medical procedures in 1996 and this may have added to her state of health? If so, she also had their home on the Boulder Tour list. Is it any wonder this woman snapped. Patsy Ramsey sure pushed herself to the edge of despair. I blame Nedra Paugh for these end results with her daughter.

    Truthfully, I don't remember this part or the diamond ring. There's a lot of reading in those Bonita Papers.
  3. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member


    Thanks for starting this. I must tell you that I have had the niggling thought lately to go back and read these just because they do contain so much info. So now you've pushed me into it.

    Right off the bat I see the initials of SBTC from John's Subic bay experience. The connection that jumps to mind is that the writer of the RN wanted to make the connection with his past military experience. She linked so many other clues to others why not the military?

    Then there was the sentence that JBR entered 8-10 pageants. Nothing more added to that sentence. Do I understand that in her several years of doing this she only entered 10 pageants as the most? Unbelievable! Also stated was that both John and Patsy supported her pageants and that JBR excelled in the talent competition. I don't want to speak ill of the dead but what little I saw of her singing and dancing I didn't think she was very good. Now maybe in relationship to the other little girls she was better. I don't know that because we haven't seen any of the others. But am I wrong here? Her little song about being a Cowboys Sweetheart was off key.

    Well that was about as far as I read today. Picky picky picky me. I know. What do you think anyway?
  4. Karen

    Karen Member

    Actually I'm thinking this story is not true at all and it makes me wonder about some of the other things in the B.Papers. I looked at photos of Patsy taken both before and after summer of 1996. I can't tell any difference in her chin. I haven't been able to find this story anywhere else. And yes, I think that after chemo, and being such a busy traveling ,vacationing mom in the summers, as well as finally being well enough to be able to do all of that again that she wouldn't have had a procedure like this done. I wonder if all the information she (the secretary)took was factual or if some of the Bonita Papers is her embellishment of the Ramsey story for her book?
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Just saw this and good idea, Karen. I'll have to come back tomorrow and see how much I can get through, as yeah, it's been a long time and I'm always thinking I need to go back and read stuff--like the LE interviews, which I always find something new in when I re-read.

    I will say that I remember reading somewhere credible that Patsy had breast implants, and I am thinking I do remember reading she "rewarded" herself with a face lift after she finished her chemo and surgery treatments. I remember thinking that I'd be so sick and tired of doctors and medical care, I can't imagine volunteering to do that in her position, but then, I'm nothing like Patsy.
  6. Karen

    Karen Member

    I agree. I think Jonbenet was adorable but I don't see that much talent in her. If I remember correctly there were a lot more than even 10 trophies and crowns in the photos. And that would be if she won all 10 pagents she entered. I don't think we've ever gotten to the truth of how many pagents she was in all in all. If only 9 or 10 then why have the intervention after Christmas about the Mega Jonbenet thing? I am still in the process of reading all the papers too. I have limited time on the computer so it may take me awhile. I'm so glad someone else wants to discuss these! I've always been interested in them. I just think there's something hinky going on with them. And it's obvious that these were written very early on in the case since some of the information has been disproven by now. Ok. Happy reading!
  7. Karen

    Karen Member

    Ahhhh! So you think the chin reconstruction surgery was really a full blown facelift?? Wow, how vain could Miss Patsy be after getting a second chance at life!? I do remember the breast augmentation story. She got "them" after she and John were married. Like a year after or something. That was in Steve Thomas' book and I think also in DOI. I don't remember that much about what was going on in the summer of 1996, though. KoldKase, is that the summer Patsy came back from Texas with a huge rock on her finger and Jonbenets hair was bleached real light and Patsy said it was because of the sun? That sentence is way too long but I hope it makes sense. Also is that the summer John Ramsey had to kick in the basement window and shimmy through because he didn't have a key? (I don't believe his story.) Maybe the summer of 1996 was very eventful after all!
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, I found one source for the "face lift" story, and it's a good one: Vanity Fair, Bardach's article early in the case. No specific date is given, though, it just says after the cancer treatments.

    I believe she finished her last NIH cancer eval with surgery in summer 1994, but let me check on that. She was diagnosed in summer of 1993, that is mentioned in the above article, so that seems right. So a partial face lift in 199?, probably some months after the last very invasive cancer surgery, where she was opened up for biopsies in an exploratory that took 2 weeks almost to get released from the hospital, I think I remember reading in one of the LE interviews.

    Here's what JR said in 1998 LE interview:

    So I'd say, with hair loss and the last exploratory surgery and last two cancer treatments ending in Sept. '95, surely she'd not go right into cosmetic surgery without giving her body a rest? So I'd think the earliest would have been in 1995? Just a guess, though.

    But if she had something done in 1996, maybe that was Patsy going back for a tune-up? She certainly wasn't averse to cosmetic surgery, it appears. So I guess I'm saying this "chin" work mentioned in the BPapers doesn't seem too out there...? I'll keep looking.

    Yes, all that JB bleached hair, Patsy wearing big diamond on return trip from Texas was the summer of 1996, I think. I recently found out Lockheed Martin has/had a big plant in Texas, so wondered if the Ramseys went there for a business trip with John. Just speculation, though.

    I don't buy JR's story about going in that window, either. I think it was broken by someone in that family, but when and whoever did it, JR certainly had no idea because what he described doing is not physically possible, as I've tried it.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2011
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here are Patsy's statements in her LE interviews:

    First, in 1997, Patsy confirms her cancer diagnosis and treatments began in July, 1993. Also, she discloses her implant surgery was in 1982, and they were found to be ruptured during her cancer treatments:

    This one was the 1998 interview:

    So summer, '93, to late '94 would seem a minimum amount of time for the cancer and health issues to run their course with the treatments?
  10. Karen

    Karen Member

    Thanks KoldKase. The Bonita Papers say she was diagnosed in July of 1993 and went into remission in 1995. So if she were in remission in 1995 I guess a year later doesn't seem so bad for more surgery, especially if it was for "fun" and something Patsy wanted. So that all adds up I guess.
    I don't believe I've read that article in Vanity Fair or at least if I did it was a long time ago. Thanks for the link. More reading to do! Have you heard some people say in an offhand way, "I've forgotten more about that than you'll ever KNOW" Well sometimes I think I've forgotten more about this case than I'll ever remember. It's fun to read all these old articles and the Bonita Papers again. That was surely a different time, wasn't it?

    Ok here is another item I took note of. Not a quote:

    Burke had a lack of self motivation and motor skill problems which made it difficult for him to transfer his thoughts to paper whether in the form of handwriting or typing.

    This makes me think that she was privvy to an interview of one or more of Burkes teachers who recalled that he had problems in this area. I don't remember Patsy or John saying anything about this in any of their interviews or in their book and I assume they would be the only two other people besides his teachers who would know this. Although it would certainly be a good defense against Burke having been the writer of the ransom note. I still think this sounds like something that would come from a teacher during an interview.
  11. WVSleuth

    WVSleuth Member

    Hi all. I've always been intrigued by the Bonita Papers, I recently came across a binder where'd I'd printed the whole thing out so I could read it at my leisure.. secondary purpose of this post is to check my ability to post as I haven't logged in here in a long time..!! Been posting at Topix, but sheesh, there sure are a lot of jerks over there!!
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    According to KK's research she sure had to keep up her appearance and be 100% perfect in every way. Once again I blame Nedra Paugh for this behaviour. I think Patsy and sister Pam were absoluterly driven by Nedra, a very dominant woman. Patsy definitely had the drive to always be on show. I also think John Ramsey was very proud of his trophy wife.

    I wouldn't mind finding out more about the secretary too, Karen.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Welcome back, WVS. Yeah, I find it almost maddening trying to wade through the fruitloops at topix now to get to actual serious discussion. It's why I seldom post there anymore.

    In hindsight, a lot of info in the Bonita Papers has not only turned out to be true and remarkably detailed, but so much has withstood the test of time and info that has been released/leaked/published eventually.
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I feel your pain. If people weren't bringing stuff up and I weren't having to go back and check info all the time, I wouldn't remember most of what I once knew in this case.

    That's an interesting quote you have picked out there. And your thoughts on it are intriguing, as well. Good thinking. Who would know that about Burke back than? It certainly sounds like a professional assessment based on his historical record, as opposed to an interview with a child psychiatrist.

    It certainly sounds like Burke couldn't have written the ransom note. I know, I know...but I have found that members of my close family often have similar handwriting style, amazingly enough, so I have thought about that. Of course I have. I've thought about so much in this case, it's a wonder my brain doesn't stage a major pout and refuse to do another thing. :pout:

    Thanks for taking the time to bring this up, Karen. I've been very busy looking up some other stuff in this case the last few days, and it snowed like crazy here this week, meaning lots of other things to do. So I'll try to catch up in the next couple of days.
  15. Karen

    Karen Member

    I read through the whole thing earlier today and noted some things I wanted to discuss but right now I just wanted to opine that it seems to me this "author" seemed to be leaning towards a "John did it" scenario. Not that she's making stuff up but that she seems to paint John in a more sinister light and Patsy as a naive follower. If I hadn't sat and read it all the way through in one sitting I doubt if I would have been able to catch that "flavor" of the Bonita Papers. That's just the feeling I got.
  16. Karen

    Karen Member

    "Fleet diagramed the position of the body in the wine cellar. This positioning was inconsistant with Johns description when he found Jonbenet."

    Somebody is lying. What I don't understand is why, and what does it accomplish for eithor one of them to lie about that? They are the only two who saw her down there. So it is one persons word against the other. One thing I do believe. IMO, I know who's lied before, and who hasn't. That's all I'm saying. Now, we know what JR has said. I wonder what Fleet said. How in the world was she positioned anyway? What could JR possibly get out of this lie?
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    There has always been a question in my mind about the position of the body because, thanks to Schiller, we finally got to see the "position" of the hands and arms while the body was still in the home, and it is not what we've been led to believe by the media, as I've understood it.

    This just leaves me with more questions, because the body, especially the arms and hands, were said to be in full rigor when John brought the body up at approx. 1 pm. Yet here are two photos, taken by the coroner/medical examiner/assist./LE, of the body upstairs before it was removed. One photo is before the hands were bagged, in one position, where the hand can be seen with the cord still on the wrist--right hand, I believe. It's hard to tell from this edited photo how the hand was positioned to the rest of the body, but it does appear to be in the "raised" position, though not something like a bondage type of positioning often discussed. It could be that we're looking at the back of the head, with the ponytail in the hair decoration at the top, and the hand is in front of the face, just can't tell.

    Then the second photo is definitely not what I expect: the body is laid on its side and the arms/hands appear to be IN FRONT of the face/head. The hands are bagged this time by LE to preserve evidence. So how did the hands get in THAT position? Very confusing. Brother Moon says they rigor was broken for the photo, to get a good picture of the spots on the side of the face, but I would have to hear that from someone who was there or has a LE source, because that doesn't make sense to me when they could have taken photos of the side of the face by simply turning the body. Sorry, Brother, you know me, always needing proof.

    Now let me tell you what I wonder: was the rigor wearing off by 8 pm, when the coroner/medical examiner, Dr. Meyer, finally made it to the scene? Think about the implications of that: we've always wondered why on earth he took so long to get there. Why did he refuse to determine a time of death; was the rigor speeded up by the colder cellar room temp, and was it affected by the warmer temp upstairs? How much difference does temp and size make in the time sequence for a small child who weighs 48 lbs.?

    Here are the photos in question:



    Last edited: Jan 14, 2011
  18. Karen

    Karen Member

    I'm afraid I have to agree with Brother Moon. Eithor the rigor was broken or it wore off. I think he broke it when he rolled her on her side. One thing is for sure. This is one of those case facts we will never know if we don't already know it.
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I agree with your last statement. But I hope we're both wrong. I hope some greedy person who was granted a collection of the PowerPoint photos orginally stolen from the BDA's office by Smit gets greedy again and sells them to someone who will release them in full, without the tricky editing that conceals enough to keep us from knowing the truth. That's been Team Ramseys' aim all along, IMO.
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Re-reading the 1995 Christmas letter of the Ramseys, compliments of Patsy, and some things popped out that are relevant to this discussion, so thought I'd post it again.

    This was written late in 1995, and notice Patsy says, "Anyway, John was rewarded by parent company, Lockheed-Martin, by being elected an office [sic] of the company." Do we know what his position as an "officer of the company" was?

    Also, seems they're Texas and Phoenix bound for sports games...and that might answer the question of when they were in Texas in 1996, in Dallas for the Buffs--whatever team that is.

    It's amazing how things like this letter have been part of this case for so long they get buried through the years; but looking again, with more known about the evidence now, it's easier to focus on some things that jump out at me--"victories in the NOOD Races"..."VICTORY S.B.T.C.":

    Last edited: Jan 14, 2011
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