Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Jan 11, 2011.
Why are you reading there? That place is a mess.Just curious.
Im obvioisly not a laywer, just concerned about the new posters. (Don't expect them anyway; Never mind about that.) deeDee, you rock! I think I'm a fan.
They had to explan to body in the basement. It couln't be an accident. The cord proves that.
They had to prove an accident or murder. The cord around he neck proves that. And the molestation.
i have a post missin about Topix. man you peolpe are strict!! I guess I broke the ruleZ. Sorry "bout that. IMO it wasn't that defamatory. Rulz are rules and I try to abide by them.
This post was changed. I don't care. I just want to continue posting. Mods, I'm sorry I don't have a mission about Topix. Thay are free to post whatever they what. GEEZ, i GOT IN TROUBLE OVER tOPIX! They totally serve a purpose. I just wonder in a general way why nobody else was cencored about Topix what I respect them...to a point. Don't you want to know the problem with them? One poster dominates the board. That is hard to deal with. I wasn't trying to "diss" another poster. Just commenting on Topix. I still read there and have registered for whatever it worth.
This would have been the correct procedure for the Ramseys to have taken, Shadow. Something was not right with the way they tackled it; however, not one Ramsey was arrested (?).
I don't just read there, I post. Why? Why not. You're right, though. It IS a mess.
Elle 1 -- "This would have been the correct procedure for the Ramseys to have taken, Shadow. Something was not right with the way they tackled it; however, not one Ramsey was arrested (?)."
I have no idea if LM conducted security training similar to that which my government contractor companies did and, therefore, can't really comment on the decision to call 911 from a "security training" standpoint. However, "something was not right" about calling half of Boulder to their house after being warned that they were "being watched." That's Strange!!
Company security training and protocols aside, when I was working as an Assistant to the Vice-President of one of the largest defense contractors in the country, and if had in my hand a ransom note written to me by a "foreign faction," and was told I was being watched, I would have called my company security office. If I couldn't reach the security office, I would have called the local FBI. If I could get neither, I would have called my VP boss -- believe me, some executive of our corporation would have gotten the attention of FBI higher-ups.
Karen, I just checked the thread moderation edits, and I didn't see any.
I don't know what happened to your post, or how it could have been changed, but as far as I know, it was not done by a mod. In all my years here on FFJ, I've never seen anyone get in trouble for saying something about the Topix forum!
Just wanted you to know you didn't do anything wrong and weren't being picked on! :thumbsup:
Can't imagine anyone removing your post and as far as I can tell no one did.
Sometimes weird glitches happen.
At FFJ we are very relaxed and one fo the reasons is because we have all been together for so long.
FFJ is more personal and easy going.
I agree with you here, Shadow! For sure the FBI should have been called, plus the VIP's at his firm. Something just isn't right! We all know it but can't do anything about it!
Thanks so much for this info Shadow.
I know you have previously said you don't advocate that Lockheed Martin had any involvement in this cover up, and of course, no way for us to ever know, so I get it.
But I was reading back through my notes on the "Bonita Files" today, and looking for the thousandth time at the ransom note, and there it was, something I don't remember striking me exactly the way it struck me today:
"We respect your bussiness but not the country it serves."
I've been looking at John's "bussiness" at the time, Access Graphics, as the intended company. But I realize I was so wrong.
It was not even John 's business anymore, as he and the previous partners had long since sold it to LM. Only John had remained as AN EMPLOYEE, an executive of LM. But Lockheed Martin OWNED Access Graphics. Of course.
Lockheed Martin was the "bussiness" that served the U.S.A., put in those terms. LM was/is in the business of serving many governments, in fact, and that would tie in with "a small foreign faction" with an ax to grind.
On the other hand, Access Graphics, before it was bought by LM, did not serve any country, but was a small business serving OTHER BUSINESSES.
AG was not in the mind of the ransom note writer, but LOCKHEED MARTIN was.
There's no arguing that the Ramseys knew all about AG and LM; Patsy even wrote in their Christmas letter about John being promoted to a "director" by LM. Working for one of the largest, if not the largest, war-machinery company in the world had elevated them from small business owners to international, mega-corporation executive status. It was not lost on them how big a leap they'd made, nor that John didn't work for himself anymore.
Conversely, what intruder, if it really wasn't a "small foreign faction" (and I don't believe anyone ever thought it was), would have related John's "bussiness" to Lockheed Martin?
Heck, in all the years I've been reading about the case--which is all 14+ yrs., and since 2000 posting online on the forums, who even mentions Lockheed Martin? Mostly it's ME, and few will even engage in that discussion because no one who can work that angle in LE or even investigative reporting ever has brought us more than a few distant details about the LM connection.
Looking at the reality of John's business, though, from the Ramsey's own perspective, the ransom note clearly means Lockheed Martin as the "bussiness," of course. How did I miss that?
I missed it because we've all been led to "Access Graphics" as John's company; that Lockheed Martin actually owned AG is a remote detail seldom linked to the ransom note, not with any serious consideration at least, not that I've seen. I believe that was very deliberate. Not for nothing did LM unload AG within the year after the murder, with John being shoved out of the company wearing his golden parachute to bring him to a soft landing.
I have also come to believe that Lockheed was the excuse for not getting subpoenas for the Ramsey phone records: I think LM used its position as gov't. defense contractors to plead Ramsey's phone records should be sealed in the interest of "national security": John worked for LM. Period. Remember how Spade once posted that the issue of the Ramsey phone records went all the way to Washington, but would never say more? I recently saw a true crime program where the phone records came into play in a murder case, but were sealed because they were deemed a matter of "national security." That really hit home with me in this case. But of course, we'll never see proof of that, will we?
We can consider the very long list of Team Ramsey's usual suspects, though: WHO among them would have ever thought about John's "bussiness" being connected to "THE COUNTRY IT SERVES"?
Common knowledge, at least as reported by nearly all sources for all these years as such, focuses on AG as a computer software installation company which customized computer systems for its customers, other businesses, pretty much, and that's about it. At what point did that ever come across as somehow SERVING the U.S.? Never, except in the ransom note.
I guess I always chalked that reference up to the author trying to create a reason for the original red herring, the "small foreign faction," to go after JR's little girl. It was nonsense, of course, and since I believe it was Patsy writing it, I never thought more about it.
But there is more: as one FBI profiler pointed out once, the writer of a staged ransom note reveals much about his/her experience in what he/she chooses to relate as the nature of the "kidnapper." The Ramsey note, subsequently, does point to one thing: the author was not thinking as we, the general public, did about "John's" business, but rather about LOCKHEED MARTIN'S "bussiness." AG was a computer software installer which customized computers for businesses; LM is an international arms dealer which "serves" many countries, but which is U.S. based.
Think of the list of Team Ramsey's intruder suspects; what is the likelihood any of these people would have related AG to LM, serving a country, while writing a faux ransom note:
John PERV Karr, gender-confused, dead girl groupie?
The McReynolds, retired Santa Clause mafia?
Helgoth and Gigax, stoner ninja burglars?
The Pughs, uneducated handyman and maid service?
Need I go on?
Anyone reading the ransom note can see that the writer uses standard business form; complex grammatical structures; educated vocabulary; she even goes so far as to create a monologue with a beginning, a middle, and ending, salutation to closing.
The entire note was predicated on the knowledge that LOCKHEED MARTIN was John's company, not Access Graphics. LM served COUNTRIES. So the question then becomes, Who would have known that, thought of that?
And decided to use it as the excuse for what was done to JonBenet Ramsey?
And this is exactly what I think happened; only I believe it was from the viewpoint of knowing there was no foreign faction, knowing there was no kidnapping, but that the FBI would have jurisdiction and therefore needed to be "called off." That's why the FBI stood down early on that morning, and why Arndt couldn't raise anyone at the BPD headquarters later when she realized she was alone with a group too large to control, IMO.
My guess is that someone from Lockheed Martin pulled all the strings that needed pulling, to set the Ramseys up to get out of town as soon as the body was found. Only the BPD blew it when they didn't find the body. Oops. Plan B, made up on the fly by John, IMO, when he was given the break of a lifetime by Arndt: go on a search of the house.
No wonder they sent flowers to Arndt; without her, they'd have never gotten off so easy.
Thanks, if you mean my long post. If not... :blush:
To me it seemed obvious Patsy tried to sidetrack everyone by misspelling the word business as "bussiness" to give the effect of a foreigner not knowing the correct spelling of the word. I quite believe it had the opposite effect.
And that, my friends, is the Ramsey case in a nutshell.
Why thank you, my Guttah friend. It only took me 14 years to get this far, so it hardly makes me anything but stupid for wasting so much precious time on this case which will never officially "be solved" or stubborn to a fault--I cannot stand A CORRUPT GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE ATTACKED OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM AND POUNDED IT INTO THE DIRT TO SAVE A CHILD KILLER BECAUSE HE/SHE IS RICH. That made it really personal to me. REALLY PERSONAL.
The Ramseys and all those who helped them kick every ideal of justice in America black and blue have ruined it for me forever. Until someone in Boulder has the courage, the intelligence, and the ability to make this right, I will consider Boulder, Colorado anti-American, a system of blatant corruption and the essence of greed. The powers that be in Boulder worship one god: the God of MONEY.
How's that working out for you, ALEX HUNTER?
So...moving along on the "Bonita Papers," hello Karen...? Yoohoo...?
Well, here are some notes I wrote while reading the section on the ransom note--in fact, while reading the ransom note. Nothing new, just looking at it again and maybe this became a little clearer for me: why did the Ramseys call their friends over that morning as soon as Patsy hung up from 911?
If the Ramseys expected the body to be found by LE shortly after they called 911 (of course they did, and I still can't believe no one found the body before Job Ramsey), how exactly did they expect that to happen?
See, I'm not a cop, and all I have to go on are movies or real life kidnapping cases similar to this one--but that's kind of hard to go on, because movies are a lot of "poetic license" and there are few "kidnapping" cases similar to this one: the Lindberg baby kidnapping is all the comes to mind, and that was so long ago, it's hard to compare the two when it comes to LE protocol.
Having said that, there are a some things I can use common sense about. First, I can't imagine that John and Patsy thought the BPD would actually come pulling up a few minutes later in marked cars. Who would do something so stupid? But that's just what the BPD did--well, it was early morning after Christmas and it was Boulder, where crime ran mostly to burglaries, college campus drug use, and jay walking. So this action by the BPD confuses us, doesn't it? We tend to see things from the "after" point of view, with the facts of what DID happen.
For the sake of RDI theory, let's look at it from the "before" point of view, from what the Ramseys expected to happen. Especially if they had a company "cleaner" on the phone telling them what to expect to happen--yes, it's a theory, so take it or leave it.
If both John and Patsy Ramsey were involved in some capacity, they expected LE to find JB's body, of course, and then they were going to make a run for the airport, I believe we can deduce from JR's call to his pilot shortly after he "found" the body that afternoon. To that end, they wrote the ransom note to lead LE on a snipe hunt for kidnappers while they flew out of Boulder.
If they were innocent, and for the sake of argument let's say John for some reason didn't know about Lockheed Martin's protocol for executives as kidnap victims, they'd have thought it would go this way: we call 911, the BPD discreetly handles it, not wanting to alert the "kidnappers" that we've called them. The BPD will know what to do: bring in the FBI, etc.
But think about what Pasty said to the 911 dispatcher:
So obviously we can see from the beginning Patsy expected the BPD to show up, or at least meant for them to show up: "...hurry please...Please send somebody."
Completely contrary to everything the "ransom note" says, with their child's life hanging in the balance, they call and demand the cops HURRY UP! No, I'm not making excuses that Patsy hadn't read the note: she got to "S.B.T.C." John was reading so deliberately he was on his hands and knees, and surely he had read talk to a dog and SHE DIES.
Does he say, Patsy, call them back and tell them not to send a car! Nope. Well, this is a well-worn argument, so I'll move along to what they obviously expected or hoped would happen.
They hoped that LE would show up. But for insurance, in spite of the warnings in the note, Patsy called over two other couples they knew were nearby who would come. There is no way, no how that would have been the instincts of any parent who believed kidnappers had their six year old child and were threatening to kill her if they talked to anyone. So we know that was a ruse, and we can guess what purpose the Ramseys expected those people to serve, as well.
By the way, this is one more reason I believe John Ramsey was involved before 911 was called: he not only worked for Lockheed Martin and traveled overseas for the company, they had a protocol in place for just such an event and I find it impossible to believe old Job would have not only called the BPD first, but that he'd have allowed Patsy to throw a kidnapping party, as well. Even if John had no training by LM, he could read, he had two degrees, he ran a billion dollar company, and god knows the note told him right in it DO NOT TALK TO ANYONE OR SHE DIES.
So back to the ransom note and the 911 call, from the GUILTY Ramseys' point of view and what they expected to happen: they demanded for the BPD to show up, and maybe they even thought the FBI might show up, as well, but what they did expect was for the body to be found quickly. So why call over the friends?
Because EVEN AFTER the body was found, how could the Ramseys be certain to demonstrate that the "kidnappers" would know the jig was up and not call the Ramseys at 10 am for the ransom pick-up? There were unknowns, of course: what if the BPD DIDN'T TAKE THE BAIT--and god knows, showing up in marked cars at a kidnapping scene with a ransom note alleged to be from terrorists going after a Lockheed Martin executive will go down in history as the start of a long list of keystone cops moves by the BPD that day; or what if the BPD waited for the FBI to step in and take jurisdiction, with all their experience and JURISDICTION? What were the Ramseys going to do if the LE response actually took some time, maybe even after 10 am when the call was supposed to happen? Who was going to find the body, then? Also, remember Burke was still in the home, and without the friends, if things took a little time from the LE protocol, what were they going to tell Burke? What to do with him while they waited? How to answer the questions he'd no doubt be asking?
I mean, HOW to explain the kidnappers NEVER CALLING, if the BPD didn't show up and the FBI stepped in (which god knows THEY SHOULD HAVE), keeping the house looking undisturbed from the outside in case the kidnappers were watching? Remember the Ramseys were working from the perspective of what LE would see, and if they didn't show up and find the body before 10 am, even when the "call" didn't come, they would still be working it as a kidnapping and there the Ramseys would sit, with no guarantee for hours and hours when LE might show up and find the now deteriorating body.
The Ramseys immediate purpose simply to get the body found quickly, getting them all out of the house and away from Boulder, into the protection of their lawyers, IMO. Leaving the convoluted "plot" for LE to figure out was for initial confusion; that it worked so well for the long haul was icing on the cake.
You see, while I think the FBI did stand down because they got a call telling them to do so, I can't prove it; but what I also SPECULATE happened is that while Lockheed Martin's influence was working to make that happen, it wasn't guaranteed it would in the time alloted on Dec. 25th/26th, in the middle of the night. So I think the "ransom note" was so long because they were trying to prepare for a couple of different possibilities. And that's also why I think the friends were called over--in case the FBI wasn't called off in time, in case LE did what anyone would assume they would do--be discreet to save a child's life.
If LE had done their job, there would not have been marked cars sitting at the Ramsey home five minutes later. So what would tip off the kidnappers not to make that call at 10 am?
Well, of course, all those "law enforcement countermeasures and tactics" would be helpful. See how they were thinking? If LE doesn't show up in cars, if the FBI takes over and works this really professionally, we have made that 911 call, haven't we, and the "kidnappers" heard it with their sophisticated equipment monitoring our phones. Yeah. And also, we'll call over our friends, who will drive up in their cars, so that covers the "kidnappers" observing our home from the outside, in case LE can actually determine our phones were NOT being bugged/intercepted by kidnappers. YEAH! That about covers everything!
So our FRIENDS can also search the house and find the body, if LE doesn't actually come to the house quickly. It's hidden in the cellar room, so we have an excuse for NOT FINDING IT OURSELVES. Then we leave for the airport because we fear for our lives. And the kidnappers won't call because they saw our friends' cars, at least. So that's covered and explained.
I tell you, it really was a brilliant plan. Nobody can ever call Patsy Ramsey stupid. Her dramatic presentation training and competition all during high school, journalism major in college, advertising experience, and in her pageant performance skills paid off in spades.
Though the BPD, in their own bumbling way, screwed the plan up for the Ramseys, making their fight to hoodwink the public fierce and ultimately futile, the Ramseys did dodge ever answering for what happened to JonBenet in a court of law.
But they haven't fooled us.
Interesting theory, koldkase.
As I said, I have no idea if LMâ€™s security training and protocols for potential terrorism (at home as well as abroad) for their executives (and mangers) were the same as my two companies, but I can say that nothing that JR and his wife did follows any protocols that Iâ€™m familiar with.
Speaking of â€œprotocols,â€ the kidnapping notwithstanding, the FBI should have taken control as soon as they saw the note. They automatically had jurisdiction as the result of a U.S. defense contractor CEO being threatened and/or blackmailed by foreigners. The fact that they didnâ€™t take control right then does make me wonder â€“ during my career as a contractor with the government, I didnâ€™t meet any â€œtimidâ€ FBI Agents.
Anyway, you make some interesting points that I haven't heard before, koldkase -- again, very interesting theory!
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