Bonita Papers

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. mBm

    mBm Banned for Stupidity

    kk, seeing all the pics of JB with the big earrings on, makes me wonder. Do we have any description of the earring found in the street in front of the Ramsey home?

    I'm wondering since we have so many pictures of her with a wide assortment of earrings, perhaps we could match the description of the one found in the street to ones she wore in a photo.

    Did the police ever release any information about it other than where it was found?

    I'm thinking that since it was found in the street, it would tell us that it's possible the perp escaped by going through the front yard even though it wouldn't necessarily tell us how he exited the house. (That is, assuming there WAS an intruder.) Thanks.
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, that photo is always so disturbing. I still look at it and ask in disbelief, how on earth did this happen to you?

    Don't know if you've seen this, but I found it googling about the sterno-mastoid muscle in stranguation. It's forensic analysis on ligature strangulation patterns (no photos), but clearly describing the pattern of the bruises on the neck in this case:

    It's a very readable text. I've been reading some other very technically written descriptions of kinds of asphyxia and head injuries, as well, and I put those links in the autopsy photos section of the case library. I can say with certainty this link is informative and within my dummy range of comprehension.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2011
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I don't remember if there was any significant description of the earring, though I easily can just be forgetting as I haven't seen it discussed in a very long time. I don't believe I ever saw a photo of it, though one may exist. I vaguely recall that was something IDIs spent more time with, so maybe you could ask them.

    JonBenet seemed to wear really large, rhinestone costume jewelry in her ears at pageants; so it seems those would have been easily picked up on if the one found was flashy like that. Some of the pageant photos are blurred for me, but one set I do recognize is the white rhinestone heart earrings--those stuck out for me, for obvious reasons.

    Seems LE would have asked Patsy to look at a photo of the earring alleged to have been found outside for purposes of identifying it in '98? Did they? Can't remember. But even if it could be identified as JonBenet's, the problem is how would that prove anything other than it was one she wore at some point that got dropped outside? It doesn't prove how or when. It could have happened any number of ways: she was playing in them outside; another child picked one up in the house and lost it outside later; it fell out of the car window during a rush somewhere; etc. Since it's been widely publicized, someone mentioning it as evidence they were there won't work, either. If you get my drift.... ;-)

    Hope that helps, but really I don't have an answer. It's late and I'm just babbling. Too much reading today on stuff that's way out of my experience.
  4. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Well, I see the bruise in the photo as being more in the middle of the neck. (My memory, which appears to be wrong, remembers collarbone involvement.)

    I'm fairly sure that's the bruise Spitz said was probably made by the knuckles of a closed hand.

    I'll look around and see if I can find the Spitz interview.
  5. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I found another photo of the bruise which shows a better view. It is obviously on the left side of her neck. Spitz is quoted, but only about the face abrasion:

    I remember an article with Spitz standing over a skull with a flashlight in his hand. I'll keep trying to find it.
  6. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Re: the neck abrasion. I found the following in JonBenet. Here Thomas is talking about Dr. Spitz's report:

    "First there had been manual strangulation, by twisting the collar of the shirt, with the perpetrator's knuckles causing the neck abrasion."

    It seems like the perpetrator could have grabbed the neck of the turtleneck just as well.
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    It's just my opinion, but I think Dr. Spitz was simply guessing and he was wrong.

    I feel this way because the bruise has a well-defined pattern that is consistent with the flat cord mechanically rolling up the neck as it was tightened against the skin and bony cartilage making up the structure of the neck. Knuckles aren't flat and wouldn't make such a flat, even pattern of bruising, I don't think.

    But it is just my non-expert opinion. Even I find it amazing that I have studied this topic enough by now to have the chutzpah to dismiss the opinion of an expert like Dr. Spitz on this, actually. Yet absent a trial, absent any finding of fact by a jury, any testimony under oath as to the science involved, or anyone to argue one way or the other under questioning by the court, I have found a lot of mistakes and guesses through the years by professionals/experts claiming to know the truth that have been proven untrue eventually. Lou Smit's "blue arc" is a very good example of that, among other misinformation he spread about the evidence.

    But thanks for your thoughts on this Fr Brown. I certainly can be wrong, and I do know that.

    I think the photo of Dr. Spitz with the flashlight and dummy is in our JB Case Library evidence files, under photos/miscellaneous? You can find a thread leading to the case library at the top of the JB public forum thread page, if you haven't found the photo elsewhere.
  8. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    The pattern isn't that even, really. Inside the triangle, there's one oval area that's light and a larger area below that which doesn't (to my eye) have a well-defined shape, but is also lighter than the edges of the bruise.

    Spitz may also have other evidence which informed his interpretation which we haven't been told.

    (I wasn't so much interested in the photo of Spitz as the article which accompanied it. I think the quote from JonBenet pretty much covers his opinion of the bruise, though.)
  9. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I see no evidence of fingers having been wrapped around JB's neck anywhere. The red triangle abrasion is from blood pooling under pressure point and very common in ligature strangulation.
    The circumferential ligature furrow is just that- a furrow dug by the ligature. There is more than one circumferential mark, but NONE look like they were made by fingers. IMO.
  10. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Spitz isn't saying that hands were wrapped around JonBenet's neck. He says that the perpetrator grabbed the neck area of her garment and the knuckles of a closed fist dug into JonBenet's neck leaving the triangular mark.

    Wasn't the pressure from the ligature evenly spread across the front of JonBenet's neck? I don't think there was anything like a knot in the front.
  11. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    There is no knot in the front, it is in the back of her neck, as we know. But try to imaging pulling a cord around someone's throat from the back. The strongest pressure is not at the KNOT- it is on the opposite side- where the cord presses INTO the throat as it is pulled from behind. Try an experiment on a rolled up towel. Tie a cord around it- tightly but not so tight that you can't pull it. Then, hold it so the knot faces you, pull HARD from the side that has the knot. You should see the towel "give" or crease on the opposite side.
  12. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Well, sure, but the pressure should be evenly distributed around the front of the neck, especially of an unconscious victim whose neck muscles are relaxed.

    I just looked at many textbook photographs of victims of ligature strangulation and I don't see anything similar to the large triangular mark on JonBenet's neck.
  13. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I have seen comparison photos where the victims have exactly that same mark. Possibly they are posted on Websleuths, but I thought they were here, too.
    They used to be on ACR in the Ruthee's Murder Library section, but as Ruthee has been dead several years, they may no longer be there.
    However, in Post #21 here on the Evidence Files thread, AND in the quote by KK in your own post #85 the photo is similar to the ones on her site, but the mark is smaller. It is the photo on the left that has the dark mark under the ligature in the exact same place as the mark on JB. It is a smaller mark, but the same and in the same place nonetheless.
  14. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Well, I'm not sure which one the Evidence Files thread is. It doesn't come up that way when I search for it.

    I clicked on the link in kk's post and the only ligature strangulation photo I saw did show a darker area on the left side of the neck, but the photo adjoining showed the ligature still in place and there was a knot over the darker area.

    I may be looking at the wrong photos.

    I'm not saying that Spitz is right. Obviously, I have no expertise in this area. I'm just trying to figure out what the argument is.

    I confess Spitz's interpretation has some appeal to me because if someone is pushing and pulling you around by your neck and shirt, you're going to be crying and yelling your head off and the person doing the pushing and shoving is probably going to be yelling too. That means that John put his head under the covers and went back to sleep, having heard it all before, no doubt. That would be something to be sorry for the next day.
  15. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    me too

    I have also seen the photos that show a similar abrasion on strangulation victims. When you see the pictures on the same page it is very striking how similar they are. I don't remember where they are but I feel sure there is at least a link to them on this forum somewhere and I've seen it in the last 3 or 4 months somewhere. I will try to find them.
  16. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Well, that's the probem I have with the bruise, Fr. B. If that triangular bruise was caused by the ligature rolling up the neck, why only in the one place? kk wondered if it might be because JBR's head was turned to the right making the sternomastoid muscle prominent. My opinion means little but if I had to bet money, I'd say that bruise was caused by something other than the cord.
  17. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    The ligature pictures I've looked at that have a mark on the front of the neck always have a ligature that is knotted. I would expect a knotted ligature to make abrasions, etc., as it is tightened and rolled up to its resting place.

    But again, my opinion, here, is not worth much.
  18. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    It just occurred to me that the nameless perpetrator might have chosen ligature strangulation partly because of the presence of this bruise, in a desire to confound the issue.

    Why not put a pillow over her face? So much easier, faster and kinder.
  19. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Oh my goodness! What an interesting point, Fr.Brown. Yes, kinder and more gentle for sure. Again with all the misdirection that JR was so good at.
  20. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    That's what I have always conjectured. The ligature was tied in an attempt to explain the bruising.

    I've always reasoned that you have an unconscious girl...probably hardly breathing, faint pulse. You have no external sign of head injury. An amateur would probably figure that:

    1. With no external sign of head injury, there will be no sign of head injury post mortem.

    2. I have a dead body, or a lifeless body on the verge of death, and I have a bruise on the neck. What to do?

    I, also, wondered if the one who tied the ligature even knew there was a head injury.....

    And, yes, you are right. If you have a lifeless, unconscious child, why not just pinch off the nose and hold the mouth shut????

    But I've also wondered. Was the head blow administed to knock JBR out so she would not suffer from the ligature application? If so, then, this would indicate a caring for the victim.
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