Bonita Papers

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. Elle

    Elle Member

    You are a nice thoughtful person, DeeDee! These colourful little characters will be a success with those who still have younger grandchildren. :)
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I never thought you were picking a fight. We're just having more of a 14+ year discussion...and when I say "arguing" I mean in the sense of "debate." Sorry if that wasn't clear.
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    You know, hubs was watching Dirty Harry last night and I wasn't, but I was hearing bits here and there. That's when I heard a kidnapper in a ransom phone call laying out the terms of getting the money, and as I'm sure many know, it was alarmingly similar to phrases used in the Ramsey ransom note.

    So now reading what you've written, I think again that John Ramsey shouldn't have wanted to call 911 AT ALL; he should have been calling Lockheed Martin, as I would bet money he had already had standard company training in kidnapping protocol at least before he traveled overseas for the company.

    See, the issue is how do you make a phone call to get help from LE when you are being monitored by a terrorist group claiming to have equipment that "hears" it all? We all have known for decades that the gov't. has equipment that can "hear" from distances without putting an actual bug into communication devices like phones. Yes, they can sit outside your house/apt. building/restaurant and listen and record your conversations over dinner. Etc. That technology has actually been around a very long time.

    So exactly why would John, who surely knew about that, tell Patsy to call 911 before he actually even finished reading the note? Especially when LMartin is a world-class defense contractor with a long history of expertise in this area with a protocol in place just for this event?

    It does not add up. John was lying--again, IMO.

    Now what I really, really REALLY wish I knew was what the Lockheed Martin training ACTUALLY WAS. Think about it: what exactly did they tell their employees to do in such an event?

    If we knew that, then I think putting the lie to the Ramseys' stories that morning would be quite easy, if JR could be proven to have been trained by his company to act entirely differently in this situation.

    And that makes me contemplate the ransom note again: if JR had training and he knew what a ransom note would actually look like in the event of a terrorist kidnapping, I'd like to know what that was.

    It might help us determine if he had any input into that ransom note, or if only Patsy composed it. Because it sounds so movie, so Dirty Harry/Ransom, I wonder if someone who has training in victim/kidnapping protocol would think like that.

    I don't know. Just a thought, which brings me back to the Bonita Papers and how that got me to thinking about the ransom note, as well.

    Back later to share some of those thoughts.
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, nevermind.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2011
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Very cute, DeeDee. Those Peeps stimulate many an imagination. It's been years since I saw it, but the one where someone staged an operation on a Peep in an actual clinic was hilarious.
  6. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    From what I've read in ST's book, I believe ST (and others) felt that PR was involved in whatever happened to JBR because she wrote the ransom note and because of her lying and demeanor during the first interview. Also, I believe they felt that way because of her actions when police first arrived on the scene such, as you say, looking at the officer from splayed fingers, etc. John's handwriting was cleared and, to ST, John was not lying when he was asked if he had any involvement in JBR's death.

    Because it was so evident, to ST, that Patsy was involved, I think he wanted to put the pressure on her so she would, at some point, crack. I believe ST, and the others, thought John had to be involved at some point in the coverup but the major concern was to get Patsy to break. After that, all the other things would be cleared up as to why, how and who helped coverup if anyone.

    If Patsy was responsible for her daughter's death, then, LE had to know John was involved, at some point, in covering for her. The only question would have been when he became aware of her involvement.
  7. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    When did John find out IF he was not involved the entire time? I can only narrow it down to when he first laid eyes on Patsy's Handwriting on the ransom note! The Q's Don't Lie!!!

  8. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    We all seem to have different thoughts on exactly when JR got involved. They vary depending on whether you believe Patsy, JAR or BR was the killer. Of course, if JR was the abuser or killer, he was in on it from the first moments. But if Patsy did it in a rage, I believe she'd have called him into it right after JB seemed to have been killed by the head bash. I just don't see Patsy doing this al by herself, from the act to the staging to the note.
    If the son(s) are involved, JR and Patsy got involved for the coverup, including both having input on the note, which Patsy wrote.
    I believe the presence of JR's wool Israeli shirt fibers INSIDE the crotch of JB's panties place him THERE as the one putting the panties on her, regardless of who else was doing the staging or who had actually harmed her.
    I do not believe that Patsy (or anyone else) used JR's shirt to wipe her down in order to incriminate him. He subsequent behavior simply doesn't suggest this. And NO ONE else would have gone into the master bedroom (with JR in there) to get his shirt.
    Remember the scream that the neighbor heard could also be heard from the master bedroom, according to tests performed at the house by LE. After that scream, if the parents were not involved from the beginning they surely were after the scream.
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    DeeDee, I thought John Ramsey helped in the changing of JonBenét's underwear because of the large size 12 being put on her by mistake. I think he just grabbed the package because he was in a panic; not realizing he had grabbed the wrong size. I posted this years ago. Yes! I think John Ramsey was involved in the cover up.
  10. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I don't think it was a mistake necessarily. The size 12 were there in the basement, wrapped up to send off to Jenny after they returned from their trips. Patsy said she hadn't gotten around to mailing off some presents and planned to do it when she got back.
    It wasn't a matter of grabbing the wrong size- it was the ONLY size there in the basement, and they couldn't risk going upstairs to JB's bathroom to get her own panties. And I've always felt that although the panties were so large, they never thought anyone would notice.
  11. Karen

    Karen Member

    Hi DeeDee, I know this is your theory and to tell you the truth it is the only thing that makes any logical sense to me but unless it can be backed up with documentation or something maybe you could write it as a theory and not state it as if it is a fact? I know we are a small group here and we all know each others theories and all and we get used to just stating these things (I am very guilty of it)because our small group here already knows your theory but I'm concerned someone who may be lurking here will read (what I bolded) and take it as a fact of the case and waste a lot of time doing their homework searching for something that will not be documented anywhere but here as someones theory. I only say this because due to the new show that will be on Investigation Discovery on Thursday we just may have a lot more lurkers trying to find out more about the case and it could confuse them. I have recently started reading a message board about another case and it's so confusing to me to try and sort out facts from someones theory. Please don't be mad, you know how much I respect you and your knowlege of this case. But what I am dealing with on the other case I'm following is really maddening and almost makes me want to throw in the towel because I can't tell what's really what. I do hope we get some new posters or even lurkers interested in this case after the broadcast, even though I don't hold out much hope of it going into the detail it needs to in order to clarify things, such as DNA. Hopefully those whose interest is peaked will come here for the facts. I'm always happy to check in here and see that you've posted but I feel like I'm part of the family here and we all know each other so well I can tell theory from fact. I'm just concerned someone new to the case might not and believe me it's frustrating when you're just getting in to a case. Sorry this is so long but I really just wanted you to know why I suggest this and it's not to pick at you of course. If I've offended you or stepped over a line let me apologise in advance.
  12. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    No need to apologize. I totally understand. I suppose I don't think about it because at the bottom of each and every post I make is the disclaimer that the post is my opinion only. I do not know all the facts, nor does anyone, and as all our posts are only our ideas and theories, I wouldn't think it necessary to preface every statement by mentioning that it is a theory. That would be understandably cumbersome for all of us.
    For the record, the post in question is my theory and opinion ONLY.
    I will try to remember to say that each and every time I post, in addition to my disclaimer at the bottom of the post, and hopefully everyone else will do the same.
  13. Karen

    Karen Member

    Hi DeeDee. I'm so glad you took my post in the spirit in which it was offered.
    Originally I was concerned about new lurkers and posters who might be confused by what some of us (Me, one of the worst offenders of course,) may say in light of knowing we are a small group who know each other so well nothing need be explained. Welllllll, I 've since read that this program is basically a repeat of Lou Smits powerpoint presentation, so uh nevermind.I was hoping some new posters would come aboard and offer some new insights. There are so many things I had never considered before: case in point, you theory about where the size 12 panties were found that night. And that I was hoping someone would come on and help me think outside of the box. I have trouble with that. But as I said, please just disregard my post. We won't have any new posters based on this broadcast anyway, IMO.
    About your post I bolded about you posting all your thoughts are theory, Gawd, PLEASE don't do that! It's so not necessisary nor was it ever. I ,and probably others, would constantly forget to do that, and besides it's just not necessisary for anyone to do that.We all know you and I for one admire your dedication and knowledge in this case. But I know a fact from theory and you don't need to bother posting any explanations. You're correct, it would be totally cumbersome. As far as your disclaimer at the bottom of your posts I remember back when we were strongly suggested to do that but IMO it just doesn't matter any more. Don't change it because i said that, of course. I'm certainly not an internet lawyer. Are there such people? But I don't think that would hold up in court if necesanyway because internet laws are changing all the time. And in the past i had one and when someone challenged me I pointed it out and they hadn't seen it. If I'm wrong about the protection it serves I'm sure someone will correct me and that's good.So as a final note, forget it. I just got my hopes up. I've been around long enough to know better but I couldn't help it. You'd think I'd learn.:cool:

    Man I post some long posts. I hold no illusions that someone else wants to read all this! :computer: Have a good evening DeeDee!
  14. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Thanks, Karen. I understand how with someone like LW always around "protecting" his clients, there are concerns. Thankfully, in this country we still have free speech, though this is changing. However, I always remember to use initials only except when the person is dead. This is because a dead person cannot be libeled. So we can say Patsy and Lou Smit and JonBenet but no one else in the case except by their initials.
  15. JoeJame

    JoeJame member

    I can not get in on Topix....first time ever. Someone reported me I'm sure. So I guess I won't post there anymore.....Let them discuss and figure it out. I may say things at times out of anger and just plain "I don't know and wish I did"..but does not mean that I do not care. Of course we all care or why would we be here over fourteen years later?
  16. JoeJame

    JoeJame member

    First time in my life I've been locked from a forum.....From now on I will just read without comment. I'm sure I can be ugly (shame on me)
  17. mBm

    mBm Banned for Stupidity

    JJ, I believe there is some sort of problem over there, that is, unless I've been locked out also. I just tried to get in and got probably the same message you got!

    But I really believe the forum is down for some reason. We'll see....
  18. whitewitch1

    whitewitch1 Senior Member

    Hey OS....I can't get on the forum either. It seems to be JUST the JB forum, though. I think maybe they got fed up with all of the crap and just shut it down. It wouldn't be the first time a JB forum was shut down for that reason. :(
  19. whitewitch1

    whitewitch1 Senior Member

    In case anyone cares, the JB forum at Topix is back. Must have been a glitch.
  20. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    Speaking just for myself, and having attended numerous government contractor security training sessions in my 40+ years as a technical employee, manager, and Assistant to the Vice-President, I would not call 911 or the local police if I got a ransom note and/or had a child kidnapped. I would call the company security office and, if not available, I’d call the local FBI office.
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