Broken paintbrush

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Karen, Apr 17, 2010.

  1. heymom

    heymom Member

    Yes, and one of the Ramsey family would have been in jail for sexual abuse of a child. We just don't know who it was.


    Sorry JonBenet, everyone let you down.
  2. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    You are right on. Bingo. End of story.

    Some comments about the injuries and post mortem. I'm not 100% on exactly how and when these injuries occurred. I have some questions.

    1. The petechiae on the eyelids, etc. What if the girl convulsed after being struck on the head? Seizures might cause small hemorrhages. What if someone grabbed the girl tight enough to clamp the jugulars. Petechiae are caused by increased pressure in the vascular system and one way to do this is to clamp off venous return while arterial flow continues. One could conceivably get capillary hemorrhages from hanging upside down too long... etc.

    2. What about post mortem bruising or bleeding? Bruises and bleeding can happen post mortem. It is recorded. What if some of the assault occurred minutes after death? What if the neck ligature was tightened 10 minutes after respiration and heart beat ceased...before livor mortis...while the body was still warm? What color would the neck furrow then be?

    I'm not arguing that events didn't take place in the sequence which is more obvious ( ligature applied pre mortem). I have this feeling, however, that there is a surprise in here somewhere. Something is not as it seems..not as it looks and this something kept the main suspect from being nailed early in the investigation.....
  3. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    The location of the petechiae on the eyelids is a well-known effect of strangulation. It is one of the first things a coroner will look for because in their absence, there is another cause of death and the strangulation may be staged.
    The POSTmortem petechia and bruising you mention has a different cause- the result of the disintegration of the capillaries. It happens a WHILE after death. The coroner should know the difference and would have said they were postmortem. He would see the bleeding into the tissues caused by this disintegration.

    JB's neck showed no bruising. The only marks were the petechiae and ligature furrow and the large red "abrasion" (NOT a bruise).
    Had she been grabbed hard before death, there would be bruising there, even finger marks. A coroner would have noted this and added "manual strangulation" in his report as well.
    Livor mortis starts pretty soon after death. I am not sure what color the ligature furrow would be if it was applied right after death (within about 10 minutes) but after death the heart stops pumping immediately and a ligature applied then would push the blood away so it still would be a white mark. The ligature applied before death makes a re mark because blood is still circulating in the flesh it presses into.
  4. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Hi Dee Dee. Thank you for the explanation. I may be very wrong about this but I still believe the following is correct. First of all, let me say that my argument is not that the eyelid petechiae were caused post mortem. My argument is that something, other than the ligature, could have caused them.

    Petechia, on the head or face, is a result of an increase in capillary pressure which ends in rupture. This, as you pointed out, happens while the person is still alive (heart beating). Strangulation is, however, but one way that this can happen. In Jonbenet's case, since a ligature was in place, it is assumed that the capillary hemorrhage, seen on her eyelids, etc., is a result of the ligature strangulation.

    The reason the eyelids are checked is because of the very thin skin in evidence here which allows an easy observation of capillary rupture. One would be hard pressed, for instance, to find capillary rupture on the palm of the hand or the sole of the foot, for instance, where the skin is thick, etc. Tie a tourniquet around the arm, for example, and you probably will not find petechia below the tourniquet. Tie one around the neck, and you will find petechia on the thinner skin of the face.

    Increased capillary pressure can happen, as stated previously, by various stimuli. One can cause petechiae by hanging upside down too long. I've seen infants cause petechiae by screaming fits....both these things disrupt venous return and increases pressure within the circulatory system.

    In vascular and cardiac diagnosis, we often utilize a valsalva maneuver to increase venous pressures and pressures within the heart, etc. A valsalva maneuver is a straining.

    What if JBR had convulsed following her head trauma? A seizure would increase capillary pressures.

    You state there were no bruises on JBR's neck. But in order to increase capillary pressure, all one has to do is clamp off the jugular veins. During the examination of the carotid arteries with ultrasound and doppler, it is easy to compress a jugular vein. If both were compressed at the same time, for a minute or two, capillary injury could occur. It wouldn't take enough pressure to cause an injury. I'm not saying this happened, I'm simply pointing out how things, other than the ligature, could cause those petechiae. More later.
  5. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Thanks. That was very helpful. Through all of the speculation about what was and wasn't done and when, I have doubts about the autopsy as far as how it was done and procedures that were followed (or not). We already know the coroner was sloppy and used an unsterile clipper (only ONE) for all 10 nails and may have used them on other bodies before JB. Anything found under her nails has to be completely discounted.
    As far as the cause(s) of death and time of death- how I wish he could have pinned it down. Of course, he failed to do two standard procedures when first encountering the body under the tree that night- a liver stab for internal temp and vitreous fluid sample from the eyeball to check potassium levels. Either of these (especially the fluid sample) could have given us a near- exact TOD when combined with the stages of rigor and the progress of the pineapple in her digestive tract.
  6. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member


    I know some people try to claim that the garrotte didn't work and that the indentation that it was burried in was due to post mortem swelling. That simply is not the case due to the petechiae on her neck. The garrotte was tightened to some extent. I'm not saying she died by strangulation. I'm just saying that something around her neck was tightened enough to cause petechiae there. The simplest explanation then for the ones on her eyelids is that it was caused from the same thing. Could seizures cause them on the eyelid? I'm sure they could but no seizure caused the ones on her neck. Why go for two different explanations?
  7. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Oh, it was definitely pulled tight. Maybe not tight enough to break the hyoid bone, but tight enough to embed in her neck. Usually it is IDI who say that the photo showing her skin folded over the ligature furrow is caused by swelling. A real strangulation victim (with NO other cause of death at play) or a hanging victim would have a very swollen face and protruding, swollen tongue.
  8. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I'm quoting the section of autopsy report referring to neck petechiae.

    "The skin of the anterior neck ABOVE AND BELOW the ligature furrow contains areas of petechial hemorrhage and abrasion encompassing an area measuring approximately 3 x 2 inches."

    "The area of abrasion and petechial hemorrhage of the skin of the anterior neck includes on the lower left neck, just to the left of midline, a roughly triangle, parchment-like rust colored abrasion...."

    emphasis mine

    Question? Why are there petechiae below the neck furrow? It seems as if the neck petechiae, on the anterior neck, are associated with abrasions and include the large, triangle shaped abrasion at the base of the neck. These neck petechiae, at this location, could be due to injury (perhaps the ligature cord being pulled and rubbing along the neck in that area?) At any rate, I believe the neck petechiae, at least here, are related to the abrasions and large abrasion.

    The report goes on to state that there are more petechiae on right side of neck ABOVE furrow. Then.

    On the left side of the neck, there are more petechiae BELOW the furrow. I could be wrong but I don't think these petechiae, below the furrow, are related to the final tightening of that ligature.....

    It sounds to me (and I admit I'm no expert) that there was just not one tightening of that ligature...could she have been pulled around with that cord? Was it tightened and loosened without a knot in place before final tightening?

    I believe this is why ST theorized that a shirt collar strangulation might have occurred first...because of these abrasions and petechiae below the furrow...
  9. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member


    It does appear from the autopsy photo that there was a second mark that indicates perhaps another furrow. Like the garrotte was tightened twice, or there was another attempt, or perhaps it rolled to a new position (I don't even know if it is possible for that to happen).

    Of course there is the mucous on her cheek that could indicate either strangulation or seizure. It is really difficult for a person with limited experience in brain injuries,like myself, to say whether she would have had seizure or not from the type of damage she suffered. I do believe that if she had suffered seizures that close to death that it would possibly lead to earlier onset of rigor mortis. I base that on my anatomy physiology class (admittedly many long years ago) when I learned the physiological reason for rigor mortis.
    This is only conjecture on my part but an interesting thing to think about. There is a lot of muscle activity associated with seizure and rigor is contraction of muscles. I have long ago forgotten the details of the sliding filament theory. (I forgot the details as I was walking out the door after taking my A&P final in 1983 lol)
  10. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Oh Texan you are such a youngster! Try forgetting all the details after finals and nursing boards taken back in 1959! Heh! :blush:
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    How about Patsy Ramsey grabbing her by the throat in a rage, Learnin? According to Delmar England's garrote analysis, this garrote could not tighten due to the type of knot which was tied.

  12. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    oh no

    I wouldn't take what delmar said as a fact. Someone else on this forum tried to simulate the garrotte and it did tighten. If someone used their hand on her neck you would see finger marks on the autopsy photos. The garrotte was buried in a furrow. It did tighten.
  13. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I would think that a seizure would have probably occurred with a head bash like that, and the fluid streaked on her cheek was a result of that. It was described as mucus -tinged, and I don''t think that happened after death. The dead can seep, but they can't vomit.
    ITA that the garrote was pulled tight.

    There WERE photos on Ruthee's site from long ago comparing side-to-side photos of JB's neck abrasion and another woman who was strangled with a scarf. She also had a nearly identical triangular mark. Those are gone now.
    Strangulation with something soft, like a scarf or shirt, may very well have happened with JB. It was suspicious and a bit creepy that JR put a scarf in the coffin with JB. Too bad, too, because with the new TOUCH DNA, we could see whose DNA was on that scarf.
    If JB's skin cells were found on that scarf (this would have to be tested before JR put it on her in her coffin) well- case closed. JB's skin cells on the scarf=scarf was used to strangle her=JR getting rid of the scarf permanently by putting it in the coffin=refusing to agree to exhume the body to test for stun gun (despite the fact this could help IDI)=refusing exhumation also keeps the scarf hidden=JR knows she was strangled with that scarf.
  14. Elle

    Elle Member

    Who is the someone else and where is the evidence of this, Texan?

    Hypothetically, if I believe it was Patsy Ramsey who is responsible for JonBenét's death, then I believe the garrote is a fake for starters, because I believe JonBenét's death was an accident, that she was thrown around in a rage. Patsy Ramsey did not create a garrote to kill her daughter.

    The garrote is part of the staging. I believe the head injury was caused through rage, therefore the garrote is nothing but a piece of false evidence to me, and just a waste of time discussing it. More time should be spent on Patsy Ramsey's outrage. On Patsy Ramsey's personality. On Patsy Ramsey's odd behaviour. JMO
  15. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member


    The garrotte was not a professional device. It could indeed be part of the staging. Imo it is not a waste of time to consider it because it IS evidence regardless of whether it functioned properly or not. The fact that it is amateurish in itself speaks to who the perp was - obviously not a professional or even someone who had ever used the device before. Patsy would certainly fit that profile.

    I am not idly saying that someone on the forum experimented with the garrotte. It is a fact. I am not sure who but I thought it was KK. She (if it was her) discussed this on the forum. Delmar's argument sounded good but as much as he wanted to be an expert, he wasn't what would be considered an expert by a court of law. Delmar was very wordy and could use words to craft an argument. I admired his debating skills. However; I think it is a disservice to the case to decide, on the basis of a well-worded argument, that what he said was a fact.
    Therefore I choose to believe what I am more familiar with and what I can clearly understand from the evidence - the garrotte did tighten. Maybe not enough to strangle the poor baby to death but it did tighten to some extent. There is evidence of that.
  16. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member


    I am proud of you - a nurse! How awesome. You must have touched many lives in the years you worked. Again, I am proud of you, and thank you for being able to do a job that not everyone can do.:crown:
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    For sure KK and Delmar never did see eye to eye, that's for sure! I remember that time very well!
  18. Little

    Little Member

    Texan wrote:
    Well, if the experiment was flawed then the outcome and conclusion would also be flawed. I believe that Delmar was speaking to that with which he also was familiar.

    From his observation of the knots and mis-named "litature - garrote" - whatever John Ramsey and Lou Smit decided it was to be called, in Delmar's personal hands-on experience he felt it would not. At least as the RST would want you to believe.

  19. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member


    Except that Delmar spoke what he believed to be true from his experience and refused to understand that the evidence refuted it. The evidence clearly shows it did tighten. :yes:

    Added Note: Either Delmar's or KK's experiment could be flawed since both were based on picture and description of the knot and rope/cord. Even if the rope/cord used was different it would skew the results. The big question is not if the garrote did tighten but actually how much it tightened. It certainly didn't cause underlying damage to the muscles and hyoid bone but compression on the jugular, carotid or vagus nerve would be enough to contribute to her death. It was not the sole cause of death and I believe it could well be part of the staging as Delmar also believed and many others too.
    Last edited: May 22, 2010
  20. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I think it was the length of the cord from the handle to the knot that made certain people believe that it was worthless as a tightening tool. There was too much rope for a good torque. The shorter rope, the better the torque, I believe.

    It appears that this ligature, or something, was tightened at least twice with the petechiae below the main furrow. And, as Texan stated, there appears to be a ligature mark below the main furrow. I believe this is what led Wecht to believe there was an auto erotic asphyxiation thing going on that went wrong. Take this with ST's theory of a shirt collar strangulation and we get a pretty good idea that, whatever the case is, there was more than just one assault to that neck.

    I just have a sneaky suspicion that an initial assault caused the petechiae and strangulation and the "wicked, torturing device (that a loving parent could never utilize on their child) was applied post mortem.

    It was old Lou who was trying to exonerate the parents by positing that loving parent(s) could not follow through with such a device....
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