Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by BobC, Nov 4, 2012.
Thanks Bob! How the heck are you?
I'm fine, Moab! What did you think of what the profiler said? He really nailed Patsy.
Thank you so much for that link. That interview is new to me. It is going to take a break in Fort Knox to get me to believe anything other than PDI.
Just now found your posts on Mr. Yeager and his analysis Koldkase. Bummer. I am so new to FFJ that I didn't realize his work had already been vetted here.
There's always room for everyone BOESP to post their opinions whether it has been repeated or not! Not to worry! The more, the merrier! I think that's what they say! Doesn't this prove you are dedicated?
I can't believe it was anyone else other than Patsy too, BOESP!
Thank you Elle. I appreciate your kind words.
I would genuinely love to see all the case files. I don't care if it is 40,000+ pages. :rolling:
This case caught my eye one night while watching the national nightly news. I haven't lost interest since that night in 1996.
No doubt, BOESP, like the rest of the younger ones here, you probably have the energy to go through all the case files! I am amazed at the amount of technical knowledge which has been posted on FFJ over the years on the JonBenÃ©t case. I do feel Patsy has already paid for her crime by dying at a young age. This does give me some peace of mind, but her young daughter never got the chance to grow up, and this is the sad part!
It is good we have you here!
Elle, if Patsy did this, she may be paying for an eternity, although I would imagine she must have begged God to forgive her many times since JonBenet's murder.
Personally, I don't think either parent committed the acts that killed JonBenet, so their personal consciences were clear. I believe that they were both protecting Burke, and I believe that he DID commit the murder and also the molestation. But I know others believe a different scenario.
Hope you are well and staying warm and dry!
I agree with you. As we know, it has come out that the Grand Jury had wanted to indict the parents from the beginning, and it was the DA who refused to allow it. Their indictment was going to be for "child abuse leading to death", not murder per se. Someone on the GJ made a comment that they felt the parents could have "done more" to prevent this horrible situation. Of course, people will take different meanings from all of this, but the way I see it is the GJ felt the parents knew there was ongoing sexual abuse of JB by her brother(s) and did not intervene enough to stop it- they failed to protect their daughter from their son(s).
I So Adore You!
Well now...did we know that Karr was in the files as far back as the 90's?! That it only takes Patsy three questions before she throws a chair?! I would have paid good money to see that! Drama Mama of Bob's Dreams, LOL!
I felt Patsy was in a rage because of a soiled bed, and in a rage threw JonbenÃ©t against the toilet or bathtub. It is difficult for me to believe more precautions weren't taken to protect JonBenÃ©t from sex play by Burke. This doesn't make sense to me at all. If Patsy was hell bent on having JonBenÃ©t become Miss America why wasn't this little girl given better protection by both her parents?
I had sons not daughters, but I think most parents would safeguard their young daughters from any sexual interference with a little six year old girl.
There's so much more about this JonBenÃ©t Ramsey case we'll never know!(?).
As for our Canadian weather, heymom, it's hot and cold, but better than the snow.
Yeah--I'd have paid good money to see Miss Patsy during the chair hurling incident.
Did you all notice how Robin gasped when Dale said Patsy did it? That's how brain-washed the public has become over this case.
That's how I kind of took the GJ indictment. What else could it mean?
There was some kind of weird Discovery ID program on about a West Virginia family which involved incest, murder, and cover-ups. Without going into the actual crimes, there was a point made that the mind-set of the family was to protect the family at all costs.
Now who-oh-who did that remind me of?
My best guess about the events of that night, at this point, is Burke was responsible for the sexual abuse and bludgeoning, Patsy and John for the rest, as a cover-up for Burke, because they knew JonBenet was dying with the devastating head injury and that the prior molestation would come out. Not wanting to lose Burke, or even possibly having been told they, too, could be indicted for felony murder because of the prior molestation, they went into action. I must say this does make me wonder if JR or Patsy was the one inflicting the sexual abuse, which would mean no question regarding felony murder and even the death penalty could be on the table?
In either event, and this is only speculation, a "best guess" based on my personal interpretation of the evidence as I understand it: finding themselves in an unexpected disaster of epic proportions--though only for them at that point--the Ramseys made some phone calls that morning on that "missing" cell phone. One call I believe they made was to Dr. Beuf--maybe not, but he was a Ramsey friend and their pediatrician and showed up at the Fernie's later that day to sedate Patsy and walk into the dark foothills with John that evening, unattended by any armed guards or LE, the murdering foreign faction on the loose notwithstanding; and his denials of prior molestation are self-serving as a pediatrician, at best, when the autopsy proved otherwise, IMO.
Other calls could have been to Bynum, who whipped himself down from the ski slopes to the Ramsey's aid so quickly he was at the Fernie's house before the BPD could get there to speak to the Ramseys again that evening, though the body hadn't been found until after 1 p.m. Several sources have claimed the Ramseys called Bynum before they called 911, but no direct identification of a source to confirm that will always leave that open to argument. Since we don't have something as simple as PHONE RECORDS subpoenaed early in the investigation, or even later, as far as we know (thanks to Hunter), to prove one way or the other if calls were made by the Ramseys during the night or before 911, of course....
There is some speculation that Lockheed-Martin sent in a "fixer." I have pondered that myself before, bringing it up when I saw saw a movie about such "cleaners" in high-powered circles. But I have never seen any actual evidence of this, unless the foreign DNA came from such a person. Some claim to know people who know people who say that's what happened that night, but it's speculation based on "negative evidence", really: the strange circumstances of that "missing cell phone" and it's blank record one year later; the immediate lawyering-up as soon as the Ramseys got out of the house after that fateful blunder by Det. Arndt--who was very possibly deliberately left alone, her attempts to get back-up FOR A CHILD KIDNAPPING BY FOREIGN TERRORISTS ATTACKING A MAJOR DEFENSE CONTRACTOR FROM LM STILL IN PROGRESS as far as the BPD knew.
In 1996 I truly had no deep knowledge about kidnapping and terrorists and defense contractors. Heck, I might as well have believed in Santa Clause--to bring up yet another victim of Team Ramsey--for all I knew about corruption in our legal system, not to mention our government. We were all still focused on White House blow-jobs as the political dirt-of-the-day.
Being so naive, it took me YEARS and YEARS for the "light bulb" to go on about what was going down behind the scenes of this murder and investigation. I'm not kidding. I was truly hoodwinked, perplexed as to how no one had been arrested and tried for this case with so much evidence?
It took Steve Thomas to reveal to the American citizens how the corruption of Alex Hunter allowed that to happen. That was the watershed moment for me.
After 16 years of following the case and researching not just evidence, but LE investigation, forensics, law, etc., I have no doubt that having a "kidnapping" by a "foreign faction" dropped by the superior and expert agency with jurisdiction--the FBI--from the first hours, to give way to the ill-equipped BPD in a murder investigation, is a HUGE CLUE.
But as I said, it's "negative evidence" because all we can truly say is the FBI didn't do its job for some reason no one has ever explained. EVER.
From there we see the Chief of the BPD dropping the ball by leaving Det. Arndt alone in a house awaiting a call from that terrorist group of kidnappers, with 9 panicked adults, most of whom were wondering what was going on themselves.
[Except for two. IMO]
When it finally dawned on Det. Arndt that something was rotten in Denmark, she tried but was unable to raise any back-up.
[Um...WHAT?! As Patsy gasped when the dispatcher on 911 asked her of the ransom note, "Did it say you took her?" I believe Patsy's heart almost stopped when she heard that, until the dispatcher repeated "Did it say WHO took her." A guilty conscience can play tricks on you.]
Imagine that. We're not talking about the Middle Ages; it was 1996. Boulder BPD may not have had much experience with murders in the sleepy little town of power and privilege, but managing to kick the FBI out of its jurisdiction over a child kidnapping with a ransom note naming terrorists who were going directly after Lockheed and the U.S. is somehow...oh, how shall I put it--UN--FRICKING--BELIEVABLE. Then to disappear but for ONE LONE DETECTIVE INEXPERIENCED IN HOMICIDES OR KIDNAPPINGS trying to hold down the RECOVERY of the child all by her lonesome?
Again, negative evidence; but if we wrote that in a fictional mystery, we'd be laughed out of an amateur writing class for bad plotting.
The thing is, we all know it well could have worked but for one thing: THE GOOD OLD U.S. CONSTITUTION WHICH GUARANTEES A FREE PRESS. Also, ironically, Jesus and Santa Clause--slow news day because of this most major of holidays. No wonder the Ramseys hated the press and wanted "to change the way we get our news." Ha. Well, they almost got their wish--almost nobody in the news is telling the truth about this case anymore. But for the Charlie Brennans of that fast-dying institution once called journalism, the Ramseys would have ran out that door into the arms of injustice unfettered.
And JonBenet Ramsey, a child who did not deserve her fate, would have had NO ONE to speak for her.
I believe the Ramseys simply refused to bow to the law. I think they decided to take the situation into their own hands, just like they did with the ongoing sexual abuse. They wanted to determine their own outcome...because they could. Until I see evidence otherwise, I see the ligature and staging as a means to finish the inevitable when they realized she might not die of the brain injury--whoever struck the blow--in time for the 7 a.m. flight plan, which would then become another problem because the "big kids" were going to be waiting in Minneapolis to be picked up, weren't they?
I don't believe a "fixer" came into the home that night: why wouldn't he/she have written the ransom note instead of leaving Patsy's own efforts to lead clearly to her, for one thing? Also, while I do believe lawyers can be corrupted to shocking levels of depravity, especially those seduced by the power and privilege afforded them through their legal machinations and connections, strangling a still living child would be beyond most--at least, I hope that's true. (I won't place any bets, though.)
Still, I do believe the Ramseys had other ways of being helped by those who knew about such things--that missing cell phone.
Did someone with immense political power get the FBI pulled from the case before 911 was even called, or at least shortly after? Was DA "Let's make a deal" Hunter recruited by Team Ramsey, to run interference and block the most basic subpoenas for phone records and clothing?
We know from John Ramsey's OWN BOOK that he claims someone inside the investigation called within hours to warn their attorneys they were the prime suspects. As if that actually had to be told to them? IMO John and Patsy Ramsey were making excuses as to why they hired lawyers Day One, but I believe there is a kernel of truth in that statement by JR: the Ramsey lawyers were in bed with the DA Office, possibly before the 911 call, IMO.
For me, I have no doubt Team Ramsey had inside help from before 911 was even called. It's all that makes sense. Otherwise, why did the FBI walk away early that morning with a child still kidnapped and missing? What if they walked away of their own choice, for some reason we don't know, and the child was killed by TERRORISTS because of a bungled LE response to an actual kidnapping? How could they have ABSOLUTELY KNOWN until the body was found? Even then, it was STILL "a kidnapping gone wrong," according to Team Ramsey--TO THIS DAY.
And why did the BPD commit such obvious errors in response to a KIDNAPPING, like leaving Det. Arndt alone, therefore a very weak target, awaiting the kidnapper's call, the life of a child hanging in the balance?
Explain how on earth would the BPD allow the Ramseys to leave the house without taking them to the police station and interviewing them separately, getting their clothing and biological samples and photographs to document witnesses and suspects from A CHILD MURDER SCENE? Even if they wouldn't talk to the BPD as per legal advice, IT WAS THE BPD'S JOB TO DO THE REST.
What would cause SEVEN HOURS to pass before the coroner showed up? He did NOT need a subpoena to enter that house with a child's strangled body on the floor. Time of death issues, anyone?
Think about that. Who inside the BPD or DA Office would compromise a child murder case so quickly out of the gate, and why? What on earth could possibly sway those whose oath of allegiance to their duties as law enforcement and officers of the court, who saw the body of six year old JonBenet Ramsey lying strangled under a Christmas tree, to hamper the investigation and cover up for her molester and killer?
And how did Alex Hunter and Mary Lacy become Team Ramsey from the start, doing all that was needed to obstruct and destroy any court case against the Ramseys, to the tune of $2 million in taxpayer money and setting up countless innocent victims to be run over most spectacularly by Team Ramsey's bus?
There is no way I will ever believe the events of this case and investigation, particularly...yes, I have to say it...the conspiracy to cover-up the crime, were on behalf of a mysterious intruder.
[I've gone on a rant, haven't I? :rant: My apologies. This is why I don't write that much anymore. It's all so unbelievable, I wonder they don't teach courses on this case in LE and forensics traiing. I can't help myself once I get started. NEVER get me started!]
Well, we'll be asking these questions forever, I guess. At least, I will. Apparently Charlie Brennan will, as well, and god speed, Charlie.
POST OF THE YEAR!!!!!
And I agree with every word of it!
As far as the FBI is concerned- they were originally called in because it was reported as a kidnapping of a child. The division of the FBI at the R home that morning was CASKU- Child Abduction and Serial Killer Unit. The Boulder police chief was annoyed at the suggestion that his department needed outside help and the FBI was told they "weren't needed". Before they left the house, they had some time to observe the parents, see the note and get a general impression of the crime scene. They said "You're going to be finding her body". They were right, of course. This wasn't their first Rodeo.
Once the body WAS found and it became apparent is was no longer a child abduction, the FBI CASKU team wouldn't be involved anyway. Then it fell exclusively to the local LE.
BRAVO KOLDKASE, BRAVO :jumpie:
Wonderful post KK. You have held nothing back! However, I am finding it difficult to think Patsy Ramsey could have interfered with JonBenÃ©t sexually and at the same time prepare her for child pageants(?). How could any child handle this situation? It doesn't make much sense to me!
I also have trouble thinking of John Ramsey in this same situation- interfering with JonBenÃ©t sexually (?). Surely Patsy would have noticed something long before this tragic evening and confronted John about it(?).
Had it been Burke who was responsible for the sexual play with JonBenÃ©t
surely both parents would have made sure their young daughter wasn't left alone with Burke and his friends when they visited and played together.
I'm still at a loss with this crime happening after the visit to the White's
Christmas party. Did anything happen sexually to JonBenÃ©t while attending this party and continued if Burke was involved? I still feel
both Ramseys would have known about this sexual interference from Burke long before this Christmas party at the white's.
I'm like a cat biting it's own tail KK- going around in circles. All I can say to you is, if it was Patsy; someone paid her back by taking her life away from her when she was still a very young woman.
I do hope this crime can still be solved, and I thank all the past and present posters who have tried over the years to solve it.
Thanks, Cherokee, Zoomama, DeeDee, Elle, and others who bother to read my rants. I ask myself many times why I still take the time and energy to discuss and post on this forever cold case anymore--and you all give me my answer. :grouphug:
Separate names with a comma.