Evidence against the Ramseys

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Little_Angel_1990, Apr 26, 2006.

  1. Could someone please list a link where I can read evidence pointing to John and/or Patsy Ramsey and not an intruder?

    L.A 90
  2. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member



  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

  4. What's so funny asking a simple question?

    Thank you, koldkase!

  5. specific?

    I can't find anything, please be a little more specific? Thanks!

  6. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I think the humor is in the context, LA: most of us have been around this case for years...and years...and years, reading everything we can get our hands on, doing research, studying forensics, law, criminal investigation and writing about it, debating literally hundreds if not thousands of people, challenging what we know, expanding our understanding of how a child's life and the investigation into her death could go so wrong. So it's probably hard to understand how funny your question is to us if you're new to all this. Sorry if we're a bit jaded. It's been a long haul. Your question just sounded a bit like walking into the Smithsonian Institute and asking if someone would point you to the Holy Grail.

    The evidence in this case is debated on every forum listed at the ACandyRose (ACR) website at the link I posted for you. You can find a forum to suit your own personality and tastes, and most of us have belonged to many through the years. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of threads here about the case evidence, as well. If you haven't read any of the books on the case, the ACR website has some of the more important ones listed. That would be the best place to start, because no one can really point you to a list of evidence off the top of her head. There are many threads with lists, but they will be months and years old by now.

    So use the search box and type in a topic at any forum, including this one; google topics; but for an overview of the case and the evidence, in a form you can access in the the time it takes to read a book...read a book.

    Having said that, if you want to go this minute to a key piece of evidence that incriminates Patsy Ramsey, the ransom note is it. If you read this thread, which is an in depth analysis of the ransom note, I think you will see why:


    One of our posters, Cherokee, did this and she did a great job. Having said that, it's a hobby of hers. There are numerous professional and amateur opinions about the ransom note which you can read in various sources...as ever, with arguments either way. To look at another good source, at the ACR site, you can see the National Enquirer spread of the handwriting samples of Patsy's writing she gave to LE and an analysis done by a professional with those. Just scroll down to "Patsy's handwriting." Don't laugh because it's a tab: jams sold those samples to the NE, and she got them from the RST, and no one has ever disputed that they are real. So this is a good example of another analysis, if you prefer to compare the analysis here to another. It's always best to get many view points, I'm sure you know. Then you can make up your own mind...or keep researching, as most of us do.

    For me, here's a little ransom note comparison I find intriguing evidence because I'm a practical person, and my family is Southern from before the Civil War. It's certainly personal and subjective to say I could see the Southern influence in the ransom note the first time I read it--but I did. Remember the words "two gentlemen" in the ransom note? Notice that Patsy wrote those very same two words when writing a spontaneous note for a sample, shown here (on the index page, click on the image at the far right on the top line, Patsy's sample letter):


    This is also a good example of debates about the interpretation of some evidence: Nobody owns the words "two gentlemen," but how much coincidence can account for evidence leading back to the Rams in this case time and again, and again, and again? How coincidental that Patsy writes "two gentlemen" in her sample--post murder--to describe two men sitting near her? Now imagine in Boulder, Colorado, an intruder/stranger/kidnapper writing a ransom note sitting in the Rams' house, a male who "coincidentally" uses the same phrasing when talking about two terrorists, two men the writer claims might BEHEAD the child...

    So...it makes me write that in the category of strange coincidences in this case that are in fact evidence against the Ramseys, that eventually does become a list, a long list, years worth of listings. If I had that list written out somewhere for you...it would be a book. Really. So that's why I said read one, and Moab said the forum IS the list. Because the Ramseys lived in the home, because JonBenet was their child, all the forensics that would put an intruder on death row...easily explained by transfer of fibers, hair, they lived there, dressed the child, etc. So I have broken down the evidence for myself, walked through it, and the result is that I believe I know what happened and who did what. But I don't have the case files. I have what anyone has, and the critical little pieces that could tell the tale in court beyond a reasonable doubt have been buried or given away by the Boulder DA for years now.

    So you just have to read and study and research...and make up your own mind.

    Well, that's all I have time for right now. Good luck.
  7. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thanks KK for this recent post. Great refresher!
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, I wonder where Little Angel went? All that work to respond to her demand to "be more specific," and...nothing?

    You see, then, Little Angel, another reason for the laugh at your question. It's a lot of work, and often when asked something like this, one is simply being baited and wasting one's time.

    But in case you have just been busy and were really sincere, another member here, Aurora, posted this article on another thread today, and it's a long one, but as comprehensive as any I've seen. So if you really want a much shorter read than a book, but a pretty thorough assessment of this case and the evidence, here it is:

    Last edited: May 7, 2006
  9. Aurora

    Aurora Member


    Thanks for posting that URL on this thread.

    If everyone would just read it and use their brains....you would see that the article sums up nicely..... the Ram's guilt.
  10. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The picture of JB's cracked skull is horrible to look at. People don't get an injury like that by accidentally being pushed against a hard object. Either someone must have hurled JB's body against a hard object or cracked her skull by hitting it with a hard object. Whatever it was, the perpetrator must have been in a boundless rage.

    All we can do is speculate, but this is one of the things I'm having the most difficulty with: what could have made Patsy fly into such a rage?
    From what I have read, both Patsy and John seem to have been very indulgent parents with a tendency toward spoiling their children. I remember reading about one episode when John picked up an adult family friend and the woman had to sit in the back of the car because JB wanted to sit in the front, and John obviously didn't even realize how impolite that was to the friend.
    So it seems that JB was treated like a little princess who was allowed to call the shots in that family, used to having her own way.
    I just can't see a type of parent like Patsy snapping and losing it because JB went down to eat some pineapple after going to bed, or didn't want to wear what Patsy told her. I can imagine JB was pretty spoiled and the parents gave in to her wishes very often.

    Sure stress during Christmas time could have played a role for Patsy to snap and lose it, but could there have been other factors adding to that stress?
    I post on a Jeffrey MacDonald forum too - JMD killed his whole family, and I am convinced that he would not have attacked his wife Colette so viciously had he not ingested diet pills containing amphetamines. Couldn't a similar thing have been the case with Patsy? Could she have taken pills too?
    They also were at a Christmas party - maybe she had one drink too many there? As everyone knows, one of the effects of alcohol is that people lose control far more easily. Bar room brawls are a typical example. Alcohol and other drugs also play a huge role in many domestic violence cases, driving people to do things they would never have done when sober, with often tragic results.
    Suppose Patsy had some drinks at the Whites' party. Not to the point of being drunk, but enough to drive her to react more aggressively than she normally would have.
    And under such circumstances (Christmas-related stress plus ingestion of alcohol, maybe in combination with other pills), I can indeed imagine that Patsy could have been driven to do something which was out of character for her.
    But I suppose her blood was never tested for alcohol and other drugs because the parents were initially not considered as suspects.
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    <TABLE class=tborder id=post99999 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><TABLE cellSpacing=6 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD noWrap>Elle_1 [​IMG]<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_99999", true); </SCRIPT>
    </TD><TD width="100%"> </TD><TD vAlign=top noWrap>Join Date: Jul 2003
    Location: Canada
    Posts: 2,646

    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- / user info --></TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt1><!-- message, attachments, sig --><!-- icon and title -->[​IMG]
    <HR style="COLOR: #d1d1e1" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Quote:
    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">rashomon:What I find interesting is that Dr. McCann, who is a world renowned expert on the topic, was of the opinion that JB's injuries to the hymen were old injuries, pointing to prior sexual abuse.
    Also Nedra Paugh's comment that she thinks it possible that JB was "a little abused" keeps ringing in my ear. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    Could you please give me the source where you read Nedra Paugh made this statement, rashomon. I remember reading Nedra wasn't too happy when Steve Thomas asked her if anyone would take advantage of JonBenét shouting for someone "anyone" to come and help clean her up when she was on the toilet. I don't remember reading Nedra thought JB was a little abused (?).

    Rashomon, I posted this on the "Ramsey Resurrection" thread, but you may have missed it. I'm keen to know the source, please.
  12. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Elle, I too have asked the question if others know where Nedra said that.
    For I remember reading this but forgot where I read it. It might have been in Steve Thomas' book, but I'm not sure. Too bad the book doesn't have an index, but I'll try to go through it again.
    Could other posters help us here?
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    All I remember about Nedra's statement to Steve Thomas was that JonBenét would holler for anyone who was within earshot to come and help clean her up. Nothing about "JonBenét being a little abused." When I read your post, this jumped right out at me.

    I'm sure there would have been much more posted on this rashomon. This is quite a statement for Nedra Paugh to have made, and why I am keen on finding the source. No one else has even responded (?).

    This "geocities" index might help you rashomon. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7615/books.html ...although I didn't find what I was looking for today :). I came across it a good few years back for Steve Thomas' book "JonBenét" and for Lawrence Schiller's "Perfect Murder Perfect Town." It has come in handy for me. Of course, the paper back for PMPT does have an index at the back, but not the hardbacks.
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I've been trying to find Nedra's statement, but no luck yet. It is in a good source somewhere, just can't remember where right now. I'll look some more when I have time if no one else finds it first.

    In the meantime, I found the Vanity Fair article and posted a new thread on it. Talk about the Rams' history...I think a lot of us forgot this stuff, bombarded by the RST spin for so many years.

  15. Elle

    Elle Member

    Do you remember having read the same statement rashomon read, KK, that Nedra thought JB was a little abused?

    On page 101-102 "JonBenét" Steve Thomas does talk to Nedra, but there's no mention of the statement above.
  16. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    I could very well be wrong, but after thinking about this, for some reason I connect Nedra's statement coming from not a book, but the Geraldo episode where someone from his show interviewed Nedra, and I believe Patsy (seperately). I have a vague recollection about that show, I remember Patsy talking about JonBenet going to school (for some reason that stands out) and Nedra talking about her being "slightly" molested or something like that. I couldn't figure out how that would work, very strange. This was Geraldo's day time show. As I said, I may be wrong. It's been so many years...
  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    Hi Thor,

    I quite believe it could be from a source such as this (?). I sure don't remember it from any of the books. It's quite a statement, Thor, don't you think? Coming from Patsy's own mother!

    rashomon is a wonderful poster, and I believe that she did come across this, and I would dearly love to find the source. I know what it's like when I'm trying to find something I've read somewhere. Frustrating!

    If Nedra really made this statement. Wow!
  18. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    Yes Elle, it is a very bizarre statement. How can you be "slightly" molested? Either you are or you're not. I just think I remember this televised as opposed to in print for some reason. But I do remember she said it.
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Gosh, Elle, this is one statement that has been discussed for years. Since one theory I have is that Patsy was molested as a child by someone in her life, and that Nedra was therefore the mother who looked the other way, more or less, I don't find this statement of hers surprising.

    Unfortunately, I just can't recall the origin, though I'm sure many of the old posters could, were they here. We'll keep looking.

    In the meantime, I wanted to get this link for those who are interested in the prior molestation theory. I started it a few years ago when I was reading Marilyn Van Derbur's book, Miss American By Day. You may remember that Marilyn was molested by her own father from the time she was 5 until she left home at 18. Her sister was also molested by him, a very rich and powerful man who kept company with Colorado governors, powerful politicians, and was a well-respected philanthropist in Denver. Turned out, he molested many girls in his life, and kept a mistress at work, as well.

    The complexities of incest are mind-boggling, and this book is the most comprehensive first person account of the life of such a victim I've ever read. Marilyn is brutally honest about the lies, the secrets which she kept from even herself. Yes, she had what she calls her "day child" and her "night child." It's a heartwrenching book that is truly difficult to read, but if you want to know how prominent, Christian families can have and hide such secrets for decades, or forever, this book will show you. Marilyn spares no detail. She tells how the abuser controls the child victim, the family, and has no shame in his abuse.

    On this old purgatory thread, I discussed the book as I read it, so if you are interested in the parallels between a former Miss American who lived with the secret of incest and Patsy, you might want to look at it.

    When you go to the link, it will have some kind of ad first. Just click "skip" or "no thanks." I don't think you have to join to read, or at least, you didn't used to have to join to read.

    Oh, Marilyn was consulted by the BPD on JonBenet's murder. She even spoke on LKL about it. The thing she said that I have burned into my memory was this: when asked if her parents could have murdered her just to keep the secret, she said they could have done so and then gone to lunch.

  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    OK, I did find a page in PMPT, paperback edition, p. 512, where Nedra was interviewed for a Geraldo show and she said she didn't know that JonBenet had been "...molested to some extent and hit on the head." Maybe that got translated into "a little bit molested" during the discussions and just stuck. If that's it, I'm ambivalent about the translation: it would be natural enough for a grandmother, if hearing this for the first time, to minimize its impact on her own grief.

    I also found a post Tricia made in 2004, part of the Bonita Papers, where the conclusions of some of the medical experts is pretty detailed. Since we've been talking about that a lot, thought it might be a good refresher for us:


    That's all I have time for today. Back later.
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