Evidence of....... Evidence suggestive of.....

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by sue, Apr 28, 2005.

  1. Sylvia

    Sylvia FFJ Senior Member

    Elle, no my books and documents weren't stolen. Books I gave away to someone, when at one point I got so tired of this case. Computer documents got lost during a computer crash and I had been too lazy to make back ups. Printed out document are still here in a big box file. However, guess I somehow this case just doesn’t let you go and leave it alone

    I believe the digital penetration is also in the autopsy report. As for the enlarged vagina, I believe it is mentioned in Steve Thomas’s book and could also have been mentioned in Wecht’s book or Hodges books but of that I am not sure since I don’t have those book anymore, and only intend to buy the books of Hodges again one day. :)
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    I understand perfectly, Sylvia. I deleted many files myself and left it for a spell, and then I found myself right back at square one. I think we're all the same. When I did return, I found a lot of JonBenét information had been removed from the net. I have to thank ACandyRose for all the hard work she has done maintaining her site for JonBenét's justice. I found a lot of the old information there.

    Thank you ACR :)
  3. sue

    sue Member

    If Miss Hollis believed that what she was being tested on was true, she would pass the lie detector test. She could be telling the truth, what she heard was not what she thought she heard.
  4. Elle

    Elle Member


    Hypothetically, from the evidence of the autopsy about previous molestation having taken place, Patsy Ramsey as a mother looking after her six year old daughter, carefully, would have noticed that her little daughter was being interfered with. From what I have read of the previous signs of molestation, plus an enlarged vagina, I find it difficult for Patsy Ramsey not to have known this was taking place (?).

    Surely little JonBenét must have been in pain with this so-called molestation taking place to have caused her vagina to be enlarged almost twice the normal size for her age, that she would have said something to her mother?
  5. sue

    sue Member

    My example about falling into my daughter was meant to illustrate that an adult's weight behind a child could cause a serious injury to the child because of the increased force of the fall, from the weight of the parent.
    I did get bruises, but if I had let my child take the force of the fall, I would have had less bruises. My worst and largest bruises were from where I hit the cabinet; I had smaller bruises where her head hit me.
    And, even with the bruises I did have, they were covered when I wore a short sleeved shirt. So, if someone had checked me for bruises on the backs and fronts of my hands, arms, face and neck, they would not have seen any.

    Actually, if Patsy had hit JB by mistake in a rage when she meant to hit John, I would expect that she would have bruises from John trying to restrain/stop her.
  6. sue

    sue Member

    I agree with the "Looks may have been everything, but that was only on the outside". That was what I meant when I wrote bruises could "crack the facade of perfect the was her life." (A facade is a cover or a false front).

    I also didn't mean to say that Patsy was aiming at John's head.
    I just can't think of any combination of the three of them, sitting, standing, lying down that allows Patsy to hit JB's head with great force if she is aiming at John. I can think of a possible position with all of them standing, where Patsy is holding the flashlight in her hand maybe talking, facing, but not that close to John. If she is angry and swings the arm with the flashlight out, away from her body toward the back, she could hit JB if JB was beside her. But, if Patsy is right handed, JB would have had to be facing away from Patsy (the right side of her body to the right side of Patsy's body) in order for Patsy to hit the right side of her head.

    And I don't have any problem with thinking John might have molested JB. Like Elle, I have problems with thinking he might have molested her that night for some of the same reasons Elle does.

    Also, I'm not an advocate for any particular scenario. I am a devil's advocate; people post what they think and I am the voice that says "well, did you think of this" or "I see this hole in what you are advocating." If you can fill the hole, you will have a more convincing arguement.
  7. sue

    sue Member

    Where is documentation of this?
    The autopsy reports
    The vagina is a muscular tube that connects the outside of the female body with the uterus. It doesn't have a particular size, but expands and contracts size as needed, so it can't be swollen to twice the size of a typical 6 year old. The cervix is at the top of the vagina and is the opening to the uterus. The vaginal vault is the space created by the walls of the vagina and the cervix.
    JB's upper vaginal vault and cervix are described as normal on the autopsy.

    Here is a good site for laypeople with pictures and diagrams. and a link from that page to a page about the hymen.
    And a link to an article about evaluating for sexual abuse.

    I have seen people say that because the autopsy says:
    it means only a small "section" of the hymen (the 7:00 position) wass present and that all of the vagina included vascular congestion and inflammation. That is not what the autopsy says. When lay people say "section", they mean an area or a part. When pathologists say "section" they mean a sample that they took and put on a slide. It's usually a thin sample that they have prepared to look at under a microscope.
    So, the word "section" in the quote above is the description of where the sections on the slides (listed below) came from. The 7:00 position is mentioned because that's where the sample came from (and the pathologist chose that section because there was an abrasion there). And the "small piece of tissue" is a description that explains he took a sample of the area of abrasion and what the sample area looked like.
    I've also seen people write that the hymen was eroded away. I don't where that information came from, but I suspect that people saw these words in the autopsy
    Vaginal epithelial cells are the close together cells that make up the surface of the vagina. The outer layer of the skin is one type of epithelial cells. The cells lining the inside of your mouth are another type of epithelial cells. The epithelial cells in your mouth can get eroded from things like eating spicy food or too hot of food. The autopsy basically says that there was irritation of the epithelial cells and the irritation had affected the capillaries (small blood vessels) enough that they were congested.
    Last edited: May 11, 2005
  8. Elle

    Elle Member


    Let me post this from Sylvia's post above until I find where I read about it.

    Little, if you're reading this, can you help at all? Both these two women are wonderful when it comes to documentation sources.

    Like Sylvia I, deleted a lot of information I had because I thought I had left the case for good. I've been on it for four years now. Others here have been on this case shortly after the death of JonBenét, in December 1996. I am not involved in any other case.

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  9. Elle

    Elle Member


    Here's what I'm finding as I search. I will not type everything, just the parts related. No harm done. A good refresher!

    I'm wondering what the Grand jury interpreted from this information, if they paid enough attention to it (?). I hope their conscience is jabbed when they come across information like this.
  10. Little

    Little Member

    Yes they are great at using information sources Elle. I emailed a couple of items I found if you want to use them.

  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    I meant you and Sylvia with your documentation of the case. Another one is ACandyRose. Of course you have also written your book "Journey Beyond reason" Little, and I would imagine that it's all filed in your head.

    Some parts come to me very quickly, as to which book I found this information in, and then there are times like
    tonight when I'm not coming across it fast enough. I'll have another bash tomorrow.

    Sue is fabulous with her medical information. I am learning so much from her.

    Thank you, Sue!
  12. sue

    sue Member

    you're welcome.
  13. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    Well, to start with, we don't know if Patsy was "carefully" looking after her. JB's last bath seems to be in contention. As for her not knowing, you'd be surprised what a person in denial doesn't notice. As for tell Patsy about it, that could have been the catalyst. Heck, for all I know, it could have gone something like this:

    "Mommy, I have to tell you something."

    "What is it?"

    "Last night (or whenever)..."

    "You little liar! (So on and so on)" and that led up to it. One thing I notice is that, as crazy as it sounds to me, very often, when a child is abused, the parent who finds out blames the victim! I've never understood why. Maybe Marilyn Van Derbur could tell you.

    Not being an expert in these matters myself, I honestly can't tell you how a child would react. I guess the amount of pain suffered is directly proportionate to how rough the treatment is.

    Oh, yeah. one other thing: if you go over the autopsy report again, you'll find that it is the HYMEN that is twice normal size. 1x1 cm, to be exact.
  14. Elle

    Elle Member


    What you're saying about Patsy not knowing the last time JonBenét had a bath is true. she was very evasive about this, and it's also true that some mothers have been known to put up with their husband's incest. Pretty disgusting all round.

    As for the information on JonBenét's enlarged vagina, Sylvia and myself may have read this from another report, and not Myer's autopsy. It has certainly been discussed many many times on the JonBenét forums. I'm hoping other posters may remember the source.

    It may well have even been in a discussion and wrongly associated with the autopsy, but I can assure you it was definitely reported somewhere. It was also discussed in CN2000 during the time I was there.

    I thought it may have been the discussion Steve Thomas talked about when the detectives were doing their presentation. Detective Jane Harmer presented a surprising anatomy lesson on vaginas to a meeting attended primarily by men. Harmer cited the experts who said there was evidence of "chronic sexual abuse,"although the detectives
    referred to it only as "prior vaginal trauma." Steve Thomas - page 342 PB.

    It is difficult to have everything perfect in this JonBenét case.
  15. Sylvia

    Sylvia FFJ Senior Member

    Elle and Punisher, I've posted information about the abuse so many times now on this thread and I believe another one as. I won't go to the trouble of reposting everything again. Elle, you exactly reposted most of what I typed out before. Moreover, the quote from PMPT is exactly the same as the one in the hardcover version of Steve Thomas' book. I did a search on Amazon in the hardcover.

    Yes, Elle I am sure that I read it somewhere about the enlarged vagina. Only I can't remember where anymore, just as you and I think many others read it as well.

    Punisher, I already said there was something in the autopsy report concerning that, pity thing is I was busy so didn't dig into it any further. P. Ramsey was careful when it came to parading the little girl on a stage like a 20-year-old vamp, rest to my opinion is show. And indeed Marilyn Van Derbur is a perfect example of what that world is about.
  16. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thank you for your support here, Sylvia, I appreciate it. It's annoying when you can't find the instant information. I've given it enough time, and I'll wait until I fall over it again, :)somewhere (?).
  17. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member


    The vagina is stretchy. The hymen opening is what is too large for a six year old.
  18. Sylvia

    Sylvia FFJ Senior Member

    Texan, I named the entire organ instead of the specific part of the organ. Thanks for straightening this out. My mistake.
  19. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member


    I believe this will help you understand why JR sexually abused JonBenet-

    Interviewer: How often does it happen that you are recognized in public? And do you ever find yourself wearing disguises or making yourselves so you are not recognized?

    John: No, uh, we are recognized... We did discuss Patsy wearing a blonde wig once, but thought, "That would be great. They'll see me with a blonde."

    *Patsy: We know where that would go.

    John: You know one of the things that's been comforting to me is that when we are out in public, anyone who has ever stopped us... "Don't I know you?" ..."Aren't you the Ramseys?" Usually they say, "Aren't you JonBenet's parents? Aren't you JonBenet's dad?" I'll say, "Yes." Everytime it's been an outpouring of compassion, caring, and sympathy. And that's really been uplifting to us.

    Only six questions into the interview John Ramsy responded for the second time with a vivid sexual example, immediately after telling us he doesn't wear disguises and he is recognized. He tells a brief story of disguising Patsy in a wig, which leads him to talk about people seeing him with another woman, seeing him commit an infidelity with a blonde. But isn't this exactly what really happened? He got caught with a blonde, a blonde who looked like Patsy and was a substitute for Patsy, a blonde whom he was terribly unfaithful with. He is easily recognizable, and so is the blonde. He didn't have to tell us Patsy wore a blonde wig. It could have just been a wig or a red-haired wig or a hat. Secretly he was confessing to having sex with a blonde--a blonde named JonBenet.

    He further confirmed the story by linking the story of the blonde to JonBenet, to being JonBenet's dad, and to needing someone to lift him up when he is down. Once more he conveyed his great need for comfort and sympathy in the face of loss. John grieves the loss of his daughter, JonBenet, but he also grieves the loss of the comfort she gave him when he was consumed by grief over his other losses. JonBenet temporarily lifted him up. For John, JonBenet was Patsy in a blonde wig. John Ramsy's deeper intelligence sums up in one phrase the essence of the sexual abuse. Being threatened by the loss of Patsy, he reached out to the closest substitute on the face of the earth--little Patsy (JonBenet Patricia Ramsey), Patsy with a blonde wig. (Who Will Speak for JonBenet? pp 182-183)


    p.s. I added the * by Patsy's remark because, although it is not that way in Hodges' book, I vividly remember her saying that.
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    No offense IT, but it actually doesn't. We all have our own way of thinking. As for Hodges' book. I didn't finish it. It was a bit far out for me, but I appreciate you trying, thank you.
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