Extra golf clubs seen in Ramsey basement/train room video

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cherokee, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Did anyone else notice in the video (accompanying the Daily Beast article for Kolar's book) that in the second basement closet, the camera shows what looks like the rubber grips and metal shafts of a bunch of of golf clubs?
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    You mean these?

    Attached Files:

  3. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, THOSE!

    It made me think of John wanting his golf clubs the day sis Pam went and raided the house right after JonBenet was killed. That golf bag was SO important for John to have IMMEDIATELY even though it was the freezing dead of winter in Colorado and John had just lost his youngest child to an alleged murderer. I've always thought that was so odd.

    We've always speculated that the Ramseys hid something in that golf bag that pertained to the crime scene, and they wanted it snuck out of the house as soon as possible before LE had the chance to properly investigate it.

    What IF the head bash weapon was the end of a golf club?

    Certain golf club ends would fit the indentation in JonBenet's cracked skull. Even more than the Maglite, a golf club would give you more impact from downward thrust because of the extra length, so it wouldn't take a huge person to cause such a wound. We know that Burke had already hit JonBenet in the face with a golf club once, causing Patsy to panic that JonBenet might need plastic surgery to fix the wound on her face.

    What IF a golf club, like one of those pictured in the basement closet, was used to cause JonBenet's massive head wound? Maybe the person who did it ran back upstairs and told no one what they did, and someone else came down into the basement to get wrapping paper from the closet to wrap presents (for the next day in Charlevoix), and found JonBenet lying on the floor. Or maybe the basher told someone upstairs that JonBenet wouldn't get up.

    Either way, someone (the stager) took JonBenet's body from there to the carpet area next to Patsy's paintbox, and turned on her stomach for the strangulation staging, which was done with a ligature made of a broken paintbrush found in the paintbox, plus a section of leftover Stansport cord found in the basement.

    At that point, the stager did not know JonBenet was still alive but was near death. When JonBenet DID die, her bladder emptied, thus causing the urine stain on the carpet and also causing her clothing to be wet. The stager then cleaned JonBenet up and redressed her in the oversize Bloomie underwear (from a new package that was being stored in the basement as a present for a family member). JonBenet was then swaddled in the blanket before being placed on the cold floor, with the loose wrist bindings added (using all the string leftover from the ligature), as well as a piece of extra duct tape found in the basement. The "gentle molestation" could have also occured then in order to cover up prior sexual abuse that had been recently discovered in the preceding month.

    Next it was upstairs to practice and write the mother of all ransom notes.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  4. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    I've always been suspicious of why Liz wanted those golf clubs too, under the circumstances. I'm with you all the way Chero. One of those could have been the murder weapon.
  5. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I think so, Thor. I've never been a big fan of the Maglite theory, and a golf club makes so much more sense as far as the impact of JonBenet's head wound.

    I've always believed JonBenet's initial head wound was NOT premeditated but was inflicted in a moment of anger and passion. After reviewing ALL the evidence files, Kolar believes this, too. I can see someone, in a moment of rage, hitting JonBenet with a golf club that was handy near by in the basement. Perhaps, JonBenet was caught playing with someone's new toys or train set, and building anger over all the attention she received came to a head? Or was the anger somehow related to the revelation of JonBenet's prior sexual abuse?

    Everything is starting to make more sense; in particular, why Patsy got so angry during questioning about anything related to Burke being responsible for JonBenet's death, and why she claimed to know nothing about JonBenet's prior sexual abuse. ANYTHING that got too close to the truth was denied or never answered.

    I've always said Patsy would have only written that ransom note to cover up for one of two people; herself or her only remaining child, Burke.
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    The only thing about the golf club, girls, which troubles me, is the fact you have to hold a golf club in your two hands to really control it; plus really stand back a distance as one aims at the golf ball or whatever one is trying to hit; therefore I have trouble with this and I was still thinking along the lines of the lamp on the kitchen counter which had been wiped clean of fingerprints.

    Using the golf club would mean standing back and aiming at the top part of Jonbenét's head and allowing for the distance of swinging back before hitting. One would need a lot of room for this action! I can't see a golf club being used too close to the head making a strong enough impact (?). It would need to come swinging down with some force. I do golf, and I'm just imagining the impact etc.
  7. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    But Elle, you're not aiming for the accuracy of hitting a small ball off the tee. You're bringing the club down in a blind rage, trying to hit a person whose back is to you. JonBenet's head wound was to the top right side and rear of her skull. It wasn't neatly placed in the center. A six-year-old's skull isn't as hardened as an adult's. It wouldn't take swinging the golf club way back over your head to cause such a wound as JonBenet's. You'd only have to bring the club up, perhaps slightly more than perpendicular with the floor, then swing it down with speed; especially, if JonBenet was crouched down playing with a toy or trying to protect herself, and not standing at full height.

    Also, the club would not have to be gripped at the center of the rubber handle, but could have been been held "choked up," closer to the metal rod.
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    I hear you Cherokee, I was actually thinking of JonBenét's body lying on the floor half unconscious as a club was swung into her head to finish her off. I wasn't thinking of her standing up. I wasn't think of a full golf swing. Nothing like that! I was thinking there would be more of an impact with two hands. Just thoughts coming into my head. Can't stop thoughts which come into my head. Why were there no prints on that flashlight, which was the first thing I thought of truthfullly. I think Delmar England thought this too. I would need to to check this out.

    I just wish we could find out the truth! When it all boils down to it.
    If it was an adult, why would they even need a golf club to finish off a little six year old? Ridiculous! Good grief! I'm leaving!
  9. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Elle, I don't think they "finished" off JonBenet with the head injury. The head injury came first! I asked Kolar if he believed this as well, and without hesitation, he said yes, the head injury came before the strangulation part of the staging. Because Kolar has seen all the evidence files and worked the case for two years, his opinion carries a lot of weight with me.

    Also, I believe it may not have been an adult who used the golf club to inflict JonBenet's head injury.

    As for there being no prints on the Maglite, I believe the stager could have used it to help see in the darkness of the house where the lights were off, or to look for things needed in the basement. The ransom note could have been written by light from the Maglite. I believe the Maglite was used that night, but just not as a weapon. However, the stager made sure it was wiped free of prints.

    After 15 years, I share your frustration at just wanting to know the truth of what really happened that night!
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2012
  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    It was good you had the chance to ask Kolar this, Cherokee. It may have been Burke, with Patsy and John helping him to cover it up! (?). It must have been a wonderful feeling getting the chance to actually speak to James A. Kolar who appears to be quite a nice person. I still have to listen to the third hour of the first broadcast. It's good you and the others have the Hutspah to go on radio and chat so well with Important guests. This probably comes from you being a teacher, I'm thinking (?). :)

    Is Kolar free from retaliation from anyone like Mary Lacy, by any chance?
  11. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, the golf clubs found in the basement train room closet.

    Like a 5-iron or a 7-iron.

    The crack in JonBenet's skull matches the force outline of a golf club iron.


    Attached Files:

  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I've considered if either the golf club or a bat were possible weapons which caused the head injury. I think the skull photos match a golf club, too.

    I wondered about the bat because of the women's softball bat found outside. It's metal and the "metal sound" heard by the neighbor early that morning seemed to fit with it being tossed onto the cement platform where it was found. If the bat were the weapon, it would have been the end where you grip, with the mushroomed part causing the displaced skull--comminuted skull fracture, I think is the medical term used in the autopsy?

    I don't remember that Burke had new train parts during this time. I could have just missed it. I do know John said something about a toy garage they put together, but in his latest book he mentioned Legos or something like that? I know Legos has long sold various "buildings" and "enviroments" like farms with animals and garages, so I don't find that so much inconsistent, but I don't know for sure, of course.

    Then again, I may have mistaken some of this. As I said, I need to keep reading because I've forgotten lots, and I hope Kolar is going to clear a lot of this up. Maybe others already have this info?
  13. heymom

    heymom Member

    One problem with the wrong end of a baseball bat being used is that the grip end is not weighted like the hitting end, so is much lighter and the person swinging it would have had to use a lot more force to cause that kind of a head injury. Whereas a golf club would be the opposite, the heavy part is on the bottom.
  14. Karen

    Karen Member

    I'm starting to wonder if a hammer is really what was used after all.
    It fits all the criteria as far as I can see.
    Heavy, rounded surface, missing.
  15. heymom

    heymom Member

    Would the shape of the hole would be round, in that case? Or if the side of the hammer had been used, perhaps the shape would look more like the head of the hammer?

    My belief is that a hole that size and with that crack, basically splitting her skull in half, was made by someone with a lot of force and a heavy weapon.
  16. Karen

    Karen Member

    I don't know how those things work but I don't necessarily think the shape of the dislodged piece of skull has to match the shape of the object that hit it.
    If I had to count on that for some reason, I wouldn't.
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    I tried to find actual autopsy photos of a hammer attack but my blocking software wouldn't allow it. However, here is a news article that describes the autopsy of a murder victim who was struck multiple times with a hammer:

    Kalispell Murder Trial

    "At least one of the blows forced pieces of Collins’ skull into his brain, Kemp said, and that injury had a shape consistent with the round end of a hammer."
  18. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    As I said before, I think a golf club, maybe a putter or iron, could have been used to inflict JonBenet's head injury.


    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
  19. heymom

    heymom Member

    That photo shows an almost perfect match with that type of club, look at the top section of the fracture, where the stem of the club meets the bottom. It's the right shape, size and angle.
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, it is.
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