Extra golf clubs seen in Ramsey basement/train room video

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cherokee, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. heymom

    heymom Member

    How about this for a weapon?

    I was thinking that a putting wedge was just about the right shape.

  2. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    From Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet? by A. James Kolar:

    It had been stated repeatedly that there had been no prior
    recorded history / incidents of abuse that would have suggested
    parental involvement in JonBenét’s death. As I pointed out in the
    case analysis report and Power Point outline completed in the
    fall of 2006, Burke had already exhibited one prior incident of
    violence against JonBenét.

    The incident that involved a blow to the head with a golf club
    that took place in Michigan was claimed to be an “accident” by the
    Ramsey family, but it is interesting to note that this incident took
    place within a day or two of JonBenét’s birthday in August 1994.

    Below is Patsy Ramsey's version of the golf club incident. [Note: there is a transcription error on line 7. It should read "SHE was two or three" because if Burke was two or three, JonBenet was either not born yet or was a babe in arms.]

    Patsy says the incident happened in the summer of '93, when Burke would have been 6/12, and JonBenet was almost three. However, Kolar quotes from police records and says the incident happened a day or two before JonBenet's birthday (August 6th) 1994. Burke would have been 7 1/2, and JonBenet almost four. At 7 1/2, I don't think Burke would have been "just a little guy," as Patsy claims. Everything about this incident is minimized by the Ramseys.


    24 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was
    25 mention while we are talking about that, there
    1 was mention of a situation where he apparently
    2 hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

    4 THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us
    5 about that?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a
    7 practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was
    8 two or three, or two and a half, and he was --
    9 it was our first summer there, how young they
    10 were there.
    11 THOMAS HANEY: About what year
    12 would that have been?
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I
    14 believe. And he, you know, he was out there
    15 with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and
    16 she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her
    17 right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody
    18 murder.
    19 And I jumped down off the porch and
    20 grabbed her and, you know, slammed ice on it. I
    21 thought he got her in the eye, and went down
    22 there to the emergency room and, you know, the
    23 doctor looked and it was just, you know, that
    24 socket around your eye, protects your eye there,
    25 so she had a good old black eye for a while.

    1 She had a little, I don't remember which eye it
    2 was, little abrasion. I took her to a plastic
    3 surgeon just to see if there was anything to do
    4 to help there. He said it will go away. You
    5 know.
    6 THOMAS HANEY: So that was just an
    7 accidental --
    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. You know, he
    9 wasn't used to looking around and she walked
    10 right up behind him, so --
    11 THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
    12 TRIP DeMUTH: And who was the
    13 doctor?
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, somebody there
    15 at the emergency room in Charlevoix.

    From JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation by Steve Thomas:

    That evening, John Ramsey went to Crist Mortuary to discuss funeral arrangements. In addition to the usual rites, transportation was needed for burial in Atlanta.

    Patsy awoke while he was gone and staggered from the bedroom to a couch, barely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteenth Street.

    John was overheard to ask someone quietly, "Did you get my golf bag?"

    When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. Neither bag was collected by police. Moreover, it was winter in Colorado, Michigan, and Georgia, not exactly optimal golfing conditions. Why would a man whose daughter had just been murdered be wanting his golf clubs anyway?

    From Steve Thomas' 2001 deposition:

    12 Q. Page 48, the first full paragraph.
    13 "John was overheard to ask someone quietly,
    14 'Did you get my golf bag?'
    " Did I read that
    15 correctly?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Who overheard him ask that
    18 question?

    19 A. I believe that was either John or
    20 Barbara Fernie.
  3. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    A golf club was suspected as being the murder weapon--or at least one was the cause the head injury--very early on. But over time, the flashlight seemed to gain favor mainly because it was out on the kitchen table and shouldn't have been there given the recounting of events by the Ramseys. This goes to the heart of why this case will never be prosecuted. If we cannot even determine for sure what caused the massive head injury, how do you prove anything else?

    I have always believed that the flashlight was used to compose the ransom note and maneuver around the house in the dark. I think that Patsy left it on the table because she was freaked out and not thinking clearly. There is some debatable evidence that the light and batteries were washed--but that doesn't mean (for sure) it was the murder weapon.
  4. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Cherokee - I agree with your observations and analyses!

    I've long wondered if JB was hit with a golf club in the basement and that the broken window was connected to this. As in, the hitter swung the golf club, striking JB's head and then the window on the follow-through, or maybe there were multiple swings.

    This could be why the Ramseys tried to explain away and ignore the broken window.
  5. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Wow - good call, Heymom!
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    It seems more practical a flashlight would be in the kitchen as opposed to a golf club, Bob, don't you think (?).
  7. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Of course--that's what I'm saying. Steve Thomas and others have theorized that the mag flashlight was the murder weapon (not the only theory but one of them) but all I'm saying is that there could have had another reason for it being on that kitchen table. In fact, I would wager that the reason it was left out in plain sight, with Patsy claiming she never saw it before, is that:

    1. It wasn't the weapon that caused the head blow--instead it was incidental to the staging. Which is why they forgot to get rid of it, or at least put it somewhere where it wouldn't be obvious.


    2. After Patsy realized that she screwed up by leaving it on the table with other evidence, she had to act like she'd never seen it in her life. I mean who doesn't have a flashlight? The big deal that Patsy made at first about how she didn't have one set off a red flag for me.

    I now believe that a golf club was the weapon that struck the head blow. I believe the flashlight was used to give light to the person staging the crime scene.
  8. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, Britt. It's good to see you posting again!

    That's a very interesting idea you suggested about why the basement window was broken! As we've said, would the Ramseys have REALLY left that window broken for so long and during the winter? If the window WAS broken during the swing back of the club before contact with JonBenet's head, it would make sense why the Ramseys would concoct ANOTHER story about the window - that it happened when John tried to get in the house without a key.

    Did you see my post about JonBenet's neck bruise also possibly being caused by a swing with a golf club? If it was, it might have been be part of the multiple swings you mentioned that could have happened, especially if the wielder was swinging the golf club in anger while trying to hit JonBenet.

    From what I've heard, Kolar says LE believes from the evidence JonBenet was killed in the basement. At this point, so do I.
  9. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    Hi Cherokee:) Thanks so much to you and everyone else who've been posting the info from Kolar's book.

    Yes, I saw your post about JB's neck bruise and you could sure be right.

    I'm now thinking the whole scenario started and ended in the basement. It would also explain how the disgusting mess in JB's bedroom got overlooked/ignored. If the whole horrible event and subsequent staging were taking place in the basement, maybe there was simply no thought or time given to cleaning up the bedroom/bathroom upstairs.

    The basement scenario also fits with the train track "stun gun" marks. Is the train track just speculation or was that shown to match the marks?
  10. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I've always had to laugh that the Ramseys wouldn't claim ownership of the Maglite but said they had one just like it!

    Patsy says the Maglite they had, which looked exactly like the one left on the counter, was stored in the junk drawers in the bar area.

    I believe JonBenet was hit on the head in the basement, probably with a golf club. Patsy used the Maglite to write the ransom note so that she wouldn't have to turn on lights in the middle of the night. That might be too noticible to neighbors or any witnesses. Patsy was careful to clean the batteries and Maglite of fingerprints, just as she was careful to make sure there were no fingerprints on the ransom note!


    25 LOU SMIT: Does that look like flashlight


    1 that you have or does --

    2 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, it could be. It

    3 looks a little bigger than the one I had. But it

    4 could have been the same one.



    10 TOM HANEY: -- flashlight. Do you

    11 recognize that?

    12 PATSY RAMSEY: It looks similar to one that

    13 John Andrew gave John for Christmas, birthday or

    14 something.

    15 TOM HANEY: Okay. Do you recall when it

    16 was he gave it to him or...

    17 PATSY RAMSEY: Not exactly, unh-unh (no).

    18 Although it looks kind of dirty there. I mean,

    19 if I remember --

    20 TOM HANEY: It looks different?

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

    22 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Describe how it looks

    23 different.

    24 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the one that I

    25 remember John having was pretty slick black, you


    1 know, and that looks kind of smudgy or gray or

    2 something.

    3 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. That's been processed,

    4 so it has been changed.

    5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay.

    6 TRIP DeMUTH: Other than that, do you

    7 notice any differences from...

    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

    9 TRIP DeMUTH: That's similar to the one

    10 that John Andrew gave John?

    11 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, uh-huh (yes).

    12 TRIP DeMUTH: And I think last time when

    13 you were here on last April --

    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

    15 TRIP DeMUTH: -- you said where that was

    16 stored.

    17 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh (yes).

    18 TRIP DeMUTH: And I wanted to clarify that

    19 a little bit. Do you remember where it was

    20 stored?

    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, the best I recall it

    22 was in like one of those junk drawers there in

    23 the bar area.
  11. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    The train track marks were shown to match the marks exactly. It's not speculation. In Kolar's book, there is a photo that shows the exact one-on-one match that was done by investigators.
  12. heymom

    heymom Member

    Except that JonBenet was hit on TOP of her head so there would have been no follow-through, and the window did not seem to be freshly broken. However, John's lame story about having broken out the window long before that does argue that the actual truth was 180 from his tale. I always wondered why he made up that story since the broken window would add to the staging and argue for an intruder. That could have been the point of entry for the fictional intruder, if John had said, "No, that window was not broken before." Was he afraid his DNA and fibers would be found on it? Maybe that was why he insisted that he had actually removed his pants to go in through that window.

    If he was worried about evidence, why? Why would that window have John's DNA/fiber evidence on it, unless it was connected to the murder/staging of the crime?
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Whenever the Ramseys start denying the evidence, acting like they never saw it before, what paintbrush, what Maglight, what ransom note, what cord, what's duct tape?

    I pay close attention.

    Because that's evidence that they know exactly how it got there, how it plays into the murder, and they're all over it.
  14. heymom

    heymom Member

    Then that definitely applies to the window, and JR's ridiculous story of his half-naked break-in.
  15. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Several things:

    1. My main theory has always been BDI. Because of this, I wondered how a 9 y.o. could get enough power to depress a skull. I knew that a struggle, and subsequent fall against something like a toilet rim could produce the depression. I even performed a toilet rim experiment which convinced me it could have happened this way and any person could have been involved in such a scenario. But, since John asked for his golf bag, I also believed a 9 y.o. could depress a skull with an iron because of the leverage a golf club affords. To prove this (and I believe I posted this somewhere in one of these threads years back), I had my nine year old grandson strike a birch tree with a golf club iron. A birch tree has a smooth bark and I knew, if my grandson could depress the bark of this tree, BR could depress JBR's skull. Not surprisingly, he put a quarter inch depression in this hard bark. What is more, it was almost the exact dimension of the skull depression.

    2. I used to believe it was very possible that the basement window had been broken that night for staging. I was unclear about certain things and Kolar's book has cleared it up for me. I now know the basement window had been broken for some time because there is a cob web spun between the jagged edges of the broken window. I don't believe this would have been spun the night or day after the murder. I think the broken window afforded the Ramseys with a staging scenario and they did not have to break it that night.
  16. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Learnin, did you happen to take a photo of the quarter inch depression made by the golf club in the tree bark? If so, would you please post it for us?

    One of the things I think is important to remember is that at the time of JonBenet's death, Burke was closer to ten years old than nine years old! He was only three weeks away from his 10th birthday on January 27th!

    Ramsey apologists try to act like Burke was only a small, wimpy, little nine-year-old kid. Burke was a full head taller than JonBenet and almost ten. The ten year old boys I've known could DEFINITELY have cracked a six year old's skull with a golf club, especially if it was swung in anger.
  17. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Cherokee, to my recollection, I did not. I had cut out a piece of paper which was the exact dimension of the skull depression. It almost fit perfectly in the depression. My daughter no longer lives on the property where the birch tree stands but I've been thinking, since reading Kolar's book, that I ought to try and slip over there and take a picture of it if the tree has not "healed" it's wound. If I get this accomplished, I'll post a pic....here's hoping...
  18. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Okay, thanks.

    I don't doubt the tree wound made by the golf club fit the depression in JonBenet's cracked skull.
  19. Karen

    Karen Member

    I'd like to see a list of the Christmas presents Burke received that year.
    The only thing we've ever heard about is the Nintendo 64. We know he received more than one thing. I'd like to know what.
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, there was either a toy parking garage, or a robot, or Legos...depending on which story of the Ramseys you reference.

    Kolar includes a photo of the "presents" in the cellar room which are opened at the top, like someone peeking into them. There is also a large LEGO box in the group. Kolar points out that Patsy said she opened those packages to remind herself who they were for--in the '98 DA interview, I believe.

    Darn. My brain! My brain! I'm struggling to remember....
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice