Extra golf clubs seen in Ramsey basement/train room video

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cherokee, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. Karen

    Karen Member

    I thought those presents in that room that weren't meant for relatives in Atlanta were for Burkes birthday?

    You have a mind like a steel trap koldkase and a memory to match! Don't second guess yourself!
  2. cynic

    cynic Member

    1998 Interview

    I've got photographs of the wine cellar. And these were taken during the course of the crime scene investigation. And it shows various presents in the wine cellar. And I just had a couple questions on that. It's 263, 264, 265, 266, 267 -- I'm sorry. We'll eliminate those 266, 267 and 268. we'll just concentrate on the first three. And we'll just show that to the camera and that will make up somewhat of an image. Do you have any comments about that, or does anything that looks out of place? Because you're the one that knows basically your house.
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early December, some of which were for them were for Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't know they were in the closet exactly, But the cigar box -- I had some cigars that I kept in the basement because it was kind of humid. And that looks like (INAUDIBLE) like they where the tobacco (INAUDIBLE).
    LOU SMIT: And you (INAUDIBLE)?
    JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at least Monte Christo's were there.
    LOU SMIT: Can you remember if it was a full box (INAUDIBLE) cigars?
    JOHN RAMSEY: I had taken two out, so it should have been reasonably full. I can't quite tell. It's like it's upside down, maybe. Or dumped over.
    LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem to be partially opened. Can you explain this?
    JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.
    LOU SMIT: So Patsy had gone there and just kind looked to see what was (INAUDBILE)?

    JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean, you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box was sitting on a paint can, or something like that. And I believe it shouldn't have.
    “Grueling” (LOL) interview by Lou Smit – 1998

    17 TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just talk briefly about the packages, these were presents for whom, the ones that were left in there?
    PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, held some back for Burke's birthday which is in January.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
    TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what was in them.
    TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be opened?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift wrapping. So like right here it looks like I kind of peeled a little back to see what was in it because I couldn't remember what was in them.
    TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone partially, that was --
    PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done that to peek to see what was in there.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
  3. heymom

    heymom Member

    Lou Smit! He's feeding John answers in an interrogation! "Oh, here, John, let me tell you what Patsy said in HER interview..." OMG.

  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Aw, you're sweet. Sometimes it just gets so crammed with info, I have to go back and sort it out again.

    Which I did: Kolar said Patsy lied to LE when she said she opened those packages in the cellar room herself. He said he subsequently learned it was Burke who had opened them, and questioned why Patsy would feel the need to conceal that.

    The large LEGO box was indeed for Burke's birthday. Two other presents I can identify in the black and white photos--it's hard to tell exactly as they're a bit dark on the printed page--are in the fancy toy store wrappings from New York City, FAO Schwartz?

    That paper can be seen on presents under the Christmas tree with the children on Christmas morning.

    Remember there was some of that paper lying on the floor at the corner of one crime scene photo we have, as well. (See photo below.)

    The shot Kolar includes doesn't show that paper on the floor, however, just on a group shot of some upright packages in front of a large LEGO box.

    I'd like to have all his photos here in our library, but feel I should wait a bit--don't want to steal his thunder, so to speak. Or get arrested, "Pre-Crime" (movie Minority Report) style. :eek:

    Attached Files:

  5. cynic

    cynic Member

    You mean you don't think that Lou was trying to "crack" John and get to the truth??? :D
  6. Karen

    Karen Member

    Thank you koldkase. My book arrives tomorrow so I will be jumping on here with my thought s as I read. Thank you SO MUCH for giving me just enough to tide me over until my book came. You cherry picked well and didn't give away the farm, so to speak.
    I can't wait to see all the new photos he includes!
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Just FYI, Karen: we've seen most of the photos already. But some are very important that we haven't see, like the Maglight on the kitchen counter that morning.

    I found this FAO Schwarz (no "t" in that name, I found by googling) picture of their Christmas wrapping that year at ACandyRose.com .

    As ever, thanks ACR: without you we'd get nowhere fast! :star:

    Attached Files:

  8. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    One of the forensic specialists (don't recall whether it was Wecht or Spitz) tested the flashlight and it also made a depression that matched the hole in her skull. Either fit the theory- both were present at the crime scene. If the police had ever been able to determine WHERE she was struck, it might help solve what was used. The golf clubs are in the basement, and the flashlight, though found in the kitchen, may have been used in one of the kids' rooms or elsewhere in the house.
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    I believe Patsy at one time said they used the flashlight quite a bit around the house, DeeDee. So it could have been either one, the flashlight or the golf club? Thank you for posting this!
  10. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    It could've been several things, the flashlight, toilet rim, golf club. All three things were present in the house. The problem I have with the flashlight is I don't think it came out until after first blow was struck. If a Ramsey struck first blow, why would they have a flashlight in their hand?

    An intruder would have had a flashlight from the git go. If it was a Ramsey, I think first blow came before lights were turned out.

    My thinking could be off, but, I've always thought if the flashlight caused the head wound, it's more likely an intruder was involved. I don't see Patsy or John smashing JBR's head with a flashlight. Burke, maybe. But what was the flashlight doing out? I wonder. Could John have used a flashlight to cross the street and retrieve JBR's bicycle from the neighbors? If so, he might have left it in the kitchen and then it would have been present for BR to use if he got angry during the snack......
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    Or, Burke could have gotten the flashlight to sneak down to the basement and look at the rest of the presents....or lure his sister down there...That flashlight was the Ramsey's flashlight, not an intruder's. It could have been anywhere in the house, honestly. Look at the condition of the basement! And we've heard plenty about JonBenet's room actually having feces and urine-soaked bedsheets. So a flashlight being in one place or another wouldn't have been a big deal.
  12. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    The flashlight may have also been in the basement and was moved to the kitchen. If Burke snuck down there to play with some toys or open his birthday presents early, he could have used the Maglite to help see where he was going - especially if he didn't want to turn on lights and alert his parents he was out of bed. It could be that JonBenet went to sleep in the other twin bed in Burke's room after she accidentally wet her bed, and when she didn't find Burke there, she went downstairs and followed him to the basement. It's also possible JonBenet found Burke opening his birthday presents early, and threatened to tell, or they got into a fight about some of the toys. They were both most likely exhausted from getting up early for Christmas, and being on the go all day long, as well as excited about the trip to Charlevoix the next morning. Tempers may have frayed.

    It was Werner Spitz who was photographed with a flashlight against a styrofoam manikin head.

    The Ramsey's Maglite found on the kitchen counter was a 3-cell flashlight, black in color, all-aluminum body, and used D batteries.


    According to the Maglite product chart, the Ramsey flashlight was just over 12 inches long.

    Attached Files:

  13. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Heymom ... we were posting the same thing at the same time. :)

    I have a problem with Spitz's photo. He is holding the manikin head steady with his other hand as he supposedly inflicts a blow with the flashlight.

    The person who hit JonBenet with a flashlight would have had to do the exact same thing to keep the flashlight from glancing off her head as she moved with the force of the injury. For the flashlight to have made such a deep, rectangular gash in JonBenet's skull, the downward pressure would have had to crack JonBenet's skull while her head remained almost exactly stationary, as opposed to her being hit with a golf club from the back and above, as if someone where chasing her!

    Any possible Maglite injury would have to have been inflicted SIDEWAYS on an almost stationary JonBenet, not from behind.
  14. heymom

    heymom Member

    Yes, that photo should be captioned, "This is NOT how JonBenet's head injury happened!" LOL If someone had used the flashlight, the hole would have been 90 degrees turned, otherwise the person would have had to have been standing at her side. Somehow, I can't imagine that scenario very well in my mind...

    Could we say the same about the golf club? or could the club have come down from above her and caused the same pattern of damage?
  15. Elle

    Elle Member

    I think the pattern shown on the front of her neck is exactly the same shape as a flashlight head shown in Cherokee's post. It looks as if it was pressed against her throat to stop her from screaming.
  16. Britt

    Britt FFJ Senior Member

    I'm wondering about the nature of the fracture vs. what type of blow or collision (angle, velocity, etc) could cause it. (I'm not a medical person or a golfer so I apologize in advance for any wrong terms or misunderstandings.)

    I read that the hole portion of the fracture was on the back right side of her head, with the fracture running the length of the right side. The autopsy report says "right occipital to posteroparietal area forward to the right frontal area." Here's the skull photo (warning!) from acandyrose:


    Couldn't this have been caused by someone standing in front of JB, face to face, holding a golf club in both hands, swinging it back over his left shoulder (not necessarily straight up) and then swinging it at her head, hitting her on the right side, the club causing the hole and the shaft causing the fracture to run all the way across the right side?
  17. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    The skull depression is in one of the thickest parts of the skull bone. The temporal bone lies in front of this area and it forms the thinnest part of skull bone. She was struck in the area of the parietal bone and, the force sustained by this part, split the thinner part of the skull on that side, IMO.

    If you ever saw the gruesome Zapruder film, it might give some more understanding about this. Many people questioned why a shot, to the back of the president's head, would blow out the side of his skull. It's because the high powered projectile entered the back of the head and blew out the weaker part of the skull which was just above and in front of the right ear
  18. otg

    otg Member

    Hello, all. I’m new here at FFJ, but I’ve been around a while. I recognize a few of the hats here, so maybe some of you will remember me. I started posting at J7, then JW, and lately WS. Anyway, since I’m not really new, perhaps you won’t mind my just jumping right in here.

    I just don’t buy the whole idea that the flashlight could have caused the fracture to JonBenet’s skull. First off, I don’t know what access he had to the actual skull fracture evidence, but if he read the AR, he would know that the hole in her head was a good bit further back than what he is demonstrating. Of course, we know he was simply posing for a picture here, so maybe we should give him a pass on that.

    But as I recall, his theory that the maglight caused the head wound was based on his being able to “fit†it to the comminuted hole. But the end of a maglight is flat, and the hole in her skull is oval shaped (despite Dr. Meyer’s calling it “roughly rectangular shapedâ€). (I don’t think doctors are really very good in geometry.)

    Additionally, that end of a flashlight is the lightest portion because of the empty space around the bulb and reflector area. Because of where the batteries would be inside, he is shown holding the flashlight just behind the center of its weight which would allow too much bounce when striking anything with it to be very effective. If you intended to use a flashlight as a club, wouldn't you almost instinctively hold it at the lighter end for more weight in the handle from the batteries?

    One other thing worth mentioning about the maglight that was found on the Ramsey countertop: Had that been what was used to strike JonBenet and cause that kind of damage to her skull, shouldn’t it have sustained some damage itself? Shouldn’t it at least have broken the bulb inside the end that supposedly caused a hole that size?
  19. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I think your strongest point is about the flashlight sustaining damage if it inflicted the injury. I would think the lens would have been broken. I think if you dropped the rim of the darned thing on pavement, it would shatter the glass lens.
  20. heymom

    heymom Member

    EXCELLENT POINTS! Especially about the damage to the flashlight itself. It sure might have had some kind of dent in it, or as you say, the light bulb broken.

    I think if someone grabbed the bulb end with both hands, and brought the heavy end down on someone's head, you might be able to crack their skull. I think it wouldn't be a killing blow, however. Unless it would have been an adult male who smashed it down. A child, probably could have caused a skull fracture, maybe disabling, but not fatal.

    And yes, that photo is stupid. I agree.
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