Extra golf clubs seen in Ramsey basement/train room video

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cherokee, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I think I found one of the toys in the cellar room photo Kolar included in his book, one of Burke's birthday toys. It makes me wonder if JR was confused about the toy he said he helped Burke put together that might; he once called it a "garage" and then a "robot" toy. The photo in Kolar's book is dark, but here is a color photo of the original toy, released in 1994. It seems to have been a hot item and reading reviews or comments, people/kids seem to have really liked it. One said he got it about 15 years ago, cost was about $300.

    Here is the youtube video of this set--it hurts me just to watch it "built" as I have spent more than one Christmas all-nighter putting together these kinds of torturous toy kits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEnRYtAE2dA&feature=related But this was for Burke's birthday, remember, so I guess it can't have been the "garage" or "robot" JR worked on that night, if he worked on anything at all.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2012
  2. heymom

    heymom Member

    That's not a parking garage, it's a space base! Shows how little John really participated in Burke's world. Then again, maybe Burke didn't want this Lego set specifically and Patsy bought it because it was the biggest and most expensive one she could find.

    That set could take HOURS to assemble. There is no way Burke and John could finish it in half an hour.
  3. Karen

    Karen Member

    I'm not sure I even believe the whole story of John helping Burke with the toy. The lies started before that as we know so why should we believe that part of his events of the evening?

    If Kolars timeline is correct, at about the same time JR claimed to be helping BR with his toy is about the same time JB was getting her head bashed in by ???

    It makes sense to lie about Burke being occupied doing something at that time.
    That way his whereabouts and activities are fully accounted for, aren't they?
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    The part I DO believe about that scenario is that Burke wouldn't go to bed unless he had finished assembling the Lego. But it wasn't THIS set, because that box was found in the basement.

    People with Asperger's can be very rigid and have trouble with giving up their goals, despite any conflicts caused by their lack of flexibility.

    But in his interviews, Burke said he got home, brushed his teeth and got ready for bed, and went to bed. He doesn't mention any other activity such as putting together a Lego set or other toy, or getting a snack or a glass of tea.
  5. Karen

    Karen Member

    And Jonbenet walked up the stairs when they got home.

    No, I don't believe JR helped Burke assemble a toy, or anything else about that night. I don't really believe anything they say concerning Burke anymore.
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    I don't either. I think both of them protected Burke and lied on his behalf, and I suppose are still lying, but also to protect themselves because someone put that noose on JonBenet's neck.

    Do you suppose that Burke could have even done that?
  7. Karen

    Karen Member

    Yes I suppose he could have. I mean, I think he was fully capable. Too bad we'll never know.

    I'm to the part in the book where Kolar wanted to see Burkes "psychiatric records" but the family denied access. Bryan Morgan said the family deserved "an island of privacy". I'm not sure if Kolar is talking about Burkes psychiatric records from before the murder or after. I hope he makes it clear at some point soon.
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

    I think he was interested in ALL of the medical records - JonBenet's, and Burke's for sure, Patsy's and John's as well.
  9. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    It has always angered me that the Rs refused to allow access to JB's medical and school records. And the pediatrician swore he'd never allow access either. I mean, this is the MUDRER, not just the death, of their daughter and his patient. EVERY bit of information will help. There are a few things that scream "parental involvement and coverup" This is one of them. Unless there is something to hide, there is simply no excuse.
  10. brenk

    brenk Member

    Yes, I do think BR could have done that. She couldn't resist after her skull
    had been crushed.

    I think if PR would have found her just unconscious they would have called 911.

    But, seeing what BR had done ... that's when the cover up began.
    They had to figure out how to explain why she was found in that
    JMO, brenk
  11. heymom

    heymom Member

    I have had a very hard time believing that Patsy or John could have actually pulled that cord taught around their beloved daughter's neck...and managed to fake the kidnapping after that. I can see Burke doing the whole thing, including poking JonBenet with the train tracks to see if she would respond. The paintbrush could have been done by him as well, not to cover up, but to just hurt her more at the end. After all, she wasn't bleeding or anything, so for all he knew, she might recover. Well, the cord finished that.
  12. Scarifier

    Scarifier McHag The Third

    I find it hard to imagine too...but then I think it's possible that Patsy discovered what had happened, and in her grief and panic realised that she would lose not just one child, but both, if the truth came out. Perhaps she decided that no matter what, she would protect Burke so that she didn't lose him too. If that meant doing something awful to cover up his actions, perhaps she was prepared to do that, no matter how horrific it was. The alternative was to lose both children in one night.

    I know it seems unlikely, but then so does most of what happened :(
  13. heymom

    heymom Member

    Look, she couldn't even face seeing JonBenet's body when John brought her up from the basement! She waited as long as she could before coming out of the sunroom, and then she put on a major act in front of her audience. I just do not see how a mother who is not a sociopath could choke her child to death. And I do not believe Patsy was a sociopath. But that's just me, I know some here do think she was messed up emotionally and mentally.

    I do think a lot hinges upon who was doing the abusing and which parent(s) knew about it, though.

    But yes, you're right, the whole thing seems like the most unlikely outcome - how DID they get away with it???
  14. Elle

    Elle Member


    Can you really see ten year old Burke doing the whole thing - carrying 6 year old JonBenét to this windowless room making the garrote etc. I can't!
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I try very hard not to form a theory based on what I think someone could or could not do, emotionally or because of their character.

    The Ramseys have gotten away with this for all time because so many have believed their lies for those very reasons.

    So back to the evidence: Patsy is all over the garrote (fibers tied into knots); her fibers were on the duct tape in numbers more than expected as "transfer" from testing done by the CBI; the sexual assault (her paintbrush from her paint tray); her DNA on the gown next to the body (along with Burke's); her fingerprints on the pineapple bowl (along with Burke's); her pad, her pen, her handwriting, her language; her home; her pageant child who was being molested, who wet her bed constantly, who had feces all around her, and for some reason Patsy spent the last decade of her life denying this evidence even existed, all physical evidence found at autopsy, a scientific fact, to the contrary.

    There's also something else I think is important: Haney asked Patsy in detail in 1998 about when JB's bedsheets were changed. That's because JB's blood was found on the pillowcase on her bed. Haney asks Patsy if JB had nosebleeds, so I'm wondering if her DNA was blood which came from her nose.

    There was also a lot of frantic activity around JB's room that night: the drawers hanging open in her bedroom, her bathroom, JAR's bathroom; the diapers hanging out of the wash area cabinet; the paring knife left on the appliance in the washing area outside those two bedrooms; Patsy specifically said she first went to that area that morning...at least, in one version of events she told LE...to deal with some washing of clothes for JB; the note was left at the bottom of the spiral staircase, not at the bottom of the Ramsey's staircase to their bedroom, not the bottom of the main staircase near the front entrance, but the spiral staircase near JB's room.

    Those are some of the things I want to know the answers to: who was frantically running around looking for something in that area, retrieving a knife from the kitchen and abandoning it there, leaving drawers hanging open?

    Also, the blanket from JB's bed was removed at some point and Patsy denied knowing anything about that. She acted like it was all a great big mystery to her. Yet she said JB slept in Burke's room Christmas Eve, if memory serves, and I truly cannot imagine Burke taking the blanket off and making the bed up the night JB was killed.

    Patsy and Haney "pinned down" the last change of the sheets to within five days, possibly three, which Patsy had to consider what maid LHP would say, as LHP was the one Patsy said last changed the bed. Patsy was sticking to her story that LHP changed the bed, not Patsy--unless I'm misremembering, and please correct me if you have time to look it up, as right now, I have to run.

    My point is this: when did JB get an injury which left her blood DNA on the pillowcase? Was it from the head blow or from being molested? Who removed the blanket from her bed and remade it, and when?

    One thing I do believe, and I have no proof, but I'm going by my own experience with size and weight, when it comes to carrying sleeping children around as an adult--though in this case, it would be an unconscious and dying child, possibly: I doubt Burke could have carried JB down two flights of stairs to the basement. She weighed 45 lbs, I think, at autopsy. Burke was a lot larger than she was, as far as height goes, but he was still a slender little boy who did not appear to me to be stronger than normal kids his size and weight.

    So that's just something I wonder about when I'm trying to put the sequence of events into play.

    I have always felt that something happened in or near JB's room which caused the head injury, possibly a fight between the two children.

    Or maybe it happened at the table while eating pineapple and she was carried to her bed in a stunned reaction.

    Or maybe she was being molested in her bed and that's where it all started.

    Or maybe she wet her bed and got up and it went from there. Kolar said her bed reeked of urine, according to the crime scene techs who collected evidence.

    Turns out the PJ bottoms in JB's room with brown staining in the underwear was possibly Burke's, but that's odd because Burke would have had on boy's underwear, not panties, so seems to me that would be easy to determine, but Kolar isn't very specific on that.

    Then there's that...excretion...which Kolar told us about in his book, but didn't fully explain, so that leaves us with so many more questions.

    All I'm saying is the two people who seem to be all over this crime are Burke and Patsy. Maybe John didn't know as much as we suspect him of until it was too late. Maybe Patsy kept these things from John because in fact she was clearly not handling her children very well. Or maybe he helped once the head blow was struck.

    I don't know, but I'm not ruling anything out based on what I think someone was capable of doing. I don't know these people. I doubt many truly do.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2012
  16. heymom

    heymom Member

    I am thinking that the whole thing took place near where she died. He could have dragged her to that room, especially if she had fallen not far away. No, if the evidence were that she died somewhere else in the house, then I doubt if Burke could have put her in the basement. But she died in the basement. And she could have been smashed on the head in the basement.

    The cord around her neck and her "bindings?" Yes, they were not sophisticated in any way. In fact, quite amateurish and ineffective.
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    Given the way the house was kept normally, the state of the basement, can we completely assume that all of those drawers and cupboards were left open from activity that morning? I'm not going to assume that. Patsy was not the best housekeeper and it had been a hectic few days. If you came into my house at any given moment, you'd find cupboards open because my sons never seem to close them.

    But what if Burke did bash JonBenet on the head in her own bed? If that were the case, Patsy and/or John would have certainly heard the crack. Then all 3 of them were totally involved in the cover-up, and I can't find a reason for Burke to ask "But what DID you find?" as Patsy was calling 911.

    Oh, I don't know any more! I am getting so confused, and I suppose that is what the Ramseys wanted, more than anything. None of the puzzle pieces seem to fit 100%, so we can say, "Yes, that seems to make complete sense." It's all so tiring and sad.
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I beg to differ about the cord around her neck: it strangled her to death, so it was quite effective.

    The issue with Burke being the one who tied it on and pulled it from behind, which ended in her death: she was unconscious when that happened, as there are no defensive wounds on her hands, legs, arms, feet, etc. Also, her tongue was not protruding as it usually is when victims are strangled while conscious...those kinds of things imply to me that she was already unconscious when the ligature was tied on her neck and pulled. Kolar makes that case--you have the book, I think, so are you of another opinion on this?

    Also, I think the evidence is ample that the ligature was tied on the child's neck, or at least the handle was tied onto the cord by the paint tray where the paintbrush was broken, as splinters from it indicate; it was then pulled from behind and above the child as she lie on the carpet face down, causing her death, when her bladder released into her longjohns and onto the carpet outside the cellar door.

    Does this make sense? Of course, I'm still trying to put together this puzzle like everyone else, so I'm not saying this is what happened, just that this is how the evidence lays out in my mind when I'm following it around the house that night.
  19. sboyd

    sboyd Member

    KK - Does Kolar say there was urine outside the cellar door or is that old info and I am not remembering it. Sorry to inundate you with questions.
  20. heymom

    heymom Member

    I know what you mean, I didn't mean that the noose itself wasn't effective in that it killed her, only that it was not done in any professional or planned-out manner. It is not a garrotte, only a slip-knot in a cord with one end tied around a bit of a stick.

    What part of the scene do you not see Burke able to do? He could have put the cord around her neck, he could have broken the paintbrush, he could have pulled up on the cord. Look, she has markings from the end of a train track, on her neck and on her back! How did those marks get there? Someone had to poke that track into her hard enough to make a bruise. It's possible it had happened before that night but surely Patsy would have freaked out if JonBenet had been disfigured...Hey maybe that is why Patsy wanted her to wear the red turtleneck sweater! To hide the marks...:crosseyed

    I admit that there is no fiber evidence to tie Burke to the staging scene, but maybe Patsy found JonBenet like that and tried to get the cord OFF her neck instead of putting it on her. And then realized it was too late, and after that at some point, there was staging.

    Just trying to think out of the box, so to speak.
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