Extra golf clubs seen in Ramsey basement/train room video

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Cherokee, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, I'm assuming pretty much a heck of a lot, as I can only go on what other people are writing, saying, evidence reports, etc. JonBenet could be in Fiji with Kenneth Lay, for all I know, living it up.

    So I understand we can put many circumstances to each piece of evidence and as you say, therein lies the rub.

    I'm not sure J & P would have heard the skull crack, though, especially if JB's bedroom door were closed, if you mean after they'd gone to bed, and if the head blow happened in that room. It certainly would have been loud and clear to the person who hit her, but I think possibly what J & P would have heard--in this scenario--would have been if JB screamed at some point right before she was felled by that blow. JR even speculated--and of course he could have been lying as per usual--that she was hit on the head to keep her quiet.

    You know, Patsy once actually mentioned hearing JB scream, when answering a hypothetical question about that night. I'm struggling to remember exactly where it was she came up with that--was it in the LE interviews? I'll have to do a search, I guess. But it was discussed because she certainly implied she heard JB scream...was it in her "dreams" which she was mentioning, maybe?

    As for the drawers being half open: yes, Patsy was a careless housekeeper and she obviously wasn't worried about it, either. Was Burke the one who left the drawers open that night? Good question, but I have no answer for that.

    I think if other drawers were found open in the home, in other rooms, unrelated to anything but carelessness, maybe I can see the argument that those drawers had nothing to do with the events the night JB was killed. Opening and closing drawers and cabinet doors is a matter of habit, I think, reflexive for most of us. It's a safety issue, for one thing, and if one hasn't learned that the hard way, lots of news and informative segments on safety around the house bring this up.

    But I think the events of that night were so extraordinary--I mean, even the Ramseys only once had a dead child found in their basement--that these things have to take on more scrutiny because they are in the room of the victim and those adjacent areas.

    As Kolar said--red flags.

    Yes, it is very confusing. If leaving drawers open wasn't usual, in other rooms, in general, what happened to disrupt that common habit some time prior to the time when they were photographed that way by LE? Patsy was asked about those open drawers, as well. She owned opening the drawers in JB's rooms, but seemed to think there was something amiss in JAR's bathroom drawers being left open.

    See, that's another red flag to me.

    Right now, I'm seeing Burke and Patsy all over the crime scene, as per the evidence. I'm seeing Patsy and John orchestrating the cover up with every single fiber of their being, to this day.

    What I haven't decided is how far they went in the cover up, how much they participated in the events of that night. I'm fully convinced Patsy wrote the note, was there during the application of the ligature and strangulation, helped with the insertion of the paintbrush to cover up the prior molestation, and was there when the body was staged in the cellar room.

    I'm half convinced JR was there at the strangulation, as well, and the insertion of the paintbrush and staging in the cellar room, and the composing of the ransom note.

    In fact, I'm not sure about when JR first came into the cover up, but I can believe Burke was the one who was sexually assaulting his sister--statistically that's the most likely, after JAR, and JAR wasn't around JB as much as Burke, I'm thinking.

    But Kolar revealed a big clue: if those were Burke's pajama bottoms in JB's room, that is significant evidence to me about this topic.

    Then there was the physical abuse: remember the fingerprint bruise on her inner arm, photographed in a pageant; remember Patsy calling Dr. Beuf three times after hours on Dec. 17th? Burke's toy train tracks now appear convincingly to have been the source of the marks on her back and face. Those same tracks can be seen in a photo in his bedroom...didn't I read that?

    Another issue I can't forget is that Judith Phillips' daughter, who played with the Ramsey children and was only a few years older, wrote that very "telling" letter to JB, which was published in the National Enquirer. In the "letter to JB" she mentioned Burke chasing them into a bathroom, banging on the door, because they were teasing him and unplugged his videogame.

    It was an odd letter, to say the least. Judith's 2nd husband, Doc Miller, was prosecuted in a related trial, remember, accused of trying to buy a copy of the ransom note, with a tabloid editor, from a Ramsey attorney's "handwriting expert" hired to do his own analysis on it. Doc was found not guilty by the jury, but it cost him a lot of money to defend himself. He then bought the trial transcript and published on a cd; it was astonishing in that a Ramsey defense attorney actually testified, as did other witnesses, that they went after Miller and it was at their documented insistence the DA filed a case against Miller at all and took him to trial.

    It still stands as a perfect record of how injustice works in Boulder for the privileged rich and well-connected.

    All by way of bringing up the following: Miller wrote his own book on this case, as we all know because our forum member Cookie is Judith Phillips. The book was published in Japan, but never did they find a publisher here.

    From what I gathered, very subtly worded insinuations, I take it Miller's book implicates Burke, as well. It would make sense that Miller couldn't get it published here, if that is true.

    Now think about the Whites' behavior through the years. After fighting so long and so hard, after being targeted for special ruination by Team Ramsey, when it came down to telling what they know, what they saw, what they believe, under oath, White not only went to jail rather than testify under oath in that same Miller trial, but he also sandbagged in his deposition in the Wolf vs Ramsey lawsuit: White claimed not to remember much of anything. When he said that, repeatedly, he sufficiently removed himself from any credible testimony in any trial in this case, ever, other than the same--he doesn't remember.

    JR still implicates White in JR's holier-than-thou, self-righteous ***, 2nd volume of lies for money--I mean, in his latest book.

    Yet White bowed out by his own deposition in...what, 2002?

    Why would White do that after all the energy he and his wife exerted in this case for so long up to that point?

    I have often wondered if White finally accepted it was Burke all along, and being a man of character and faith, decided he didn't want to inflict any more strife on Burke by engaging in this futile case anymore.

    Of course, I'm speculating. Assuming things. And then backing out by saying maybe, possibly, IMO, theoretically, etc.

    What I do know is this: the child was being molested before that night; she was bludgeoned by one of the three people in the home with her that night; one or more of those people strangled her with a ligature and then staged the crime scene to appear as a pervert's kidnapping gone bad. To top it all off, Patsy wrote the note.

    Here's the final thing I'll say, as I know I'm writing too much, thinking too much, and finally, getting nowhere for the millionth time:

    JonBenet was molested and killed within the bosom of her own family.

    They then set about leaving red herrings by the dozen, so they would not have to answer to LE and abide by the laws of the land.

    They have many times blamed, devastated, and injured countless people in their successful bid to rise above being held responsible for what happened to JonBenet.

    They have no remorse and they are about as coldly calculating as anyone in this country's criminal history.

    I'm ready to let it go with this knowledge, because I only ever got so interested in this case to learn the truth: the family did it, their powerful connections helped them get away with it, and may god have mercy on their blackened souls because they will never have peace until they pay the balance on their sins against so many, not the least of which was JonBenet Ramsey.
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh, I have no problem believing Burke was fully capable of tying the ligature on her neck and pulling the cord.

    But if she was already unconscious by that point, how did he move her to the paint tray? If he'd "pulled" her there under the arms or by the arms, I'd expect there would have been bruising there, as well.

    That's my problem with Burke being the one who strangled her, if in fact that happened by the paint tray/cellar door, and I think the evidence suggests that's where she died from strangulation.

    Also, Patsy's fibers weren't just on the body, on the clothing, on the duct tape, but were in fact TIED INTO the knots of the ligature. That's a hard coincidence of "transfer" to believe.

    And I believe Patsy was a steel magnolia, who would have "garroted" all of us to save her own, if it came to it.
  3. heymom

    heymom Member

    Could Patsy's jacket fibers have been in JonBenet's hair, from earlier in the evening or the previous day?

    Does the scenario go that Patsy kept the jacket on while she was busy running through the house looking for something to kill her daughter with? Or would the jacket fibers have been shed all over her other clothing previously and then transferred to the cord when the staging/strangulation was going on?
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I've had that question myself, because when I get home from a party or social event, the first thing I do is undress, or at least take off my outer jacket, etc.

    If it were only her fibers, I'd probably be more open about how they got there, thinking okay, transference can explain them being all over the crime scene, weapon, and staging.

    But it's all the other elements that lead to Patsy that bring me to conclude those fibers weren't just coincidence from transference.

    As Kolar, Thomas, and many others who know much more than I, have said: it's the body of evidence, the preponderance, that convinces me Patsy was so involved in many elements of this crime.
  5. brenk

    brenk Member

    Yesssss! I agree! We think alike.
  6. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    The whole crime doesn't fit either parent, or Burke, does it? That is why this crime has never been officially "solved." Nobody in that home fits any kind of stereotype of a kid killer.

    That being said--"good parents" flip out and kill their kids every day. Siblings do too, but nowhere near as often.

    I have always been fascinated by this case because I knew on an instinctual level that no one has gotten it quite right. Me included.

    Pasty writing the ransom note is a given. If I die tomorrow, no one will ever convince that that is not true. But why did she write it? does that mean she killed JBR in some anger fit? Maybe. But I am not convinced.

    Now about John.
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    I beg to differ with you on this point, Bob. I think good parents do NOT flip out every day and kill their kids. Good parents realize when they are under stress and find some other way to handle it, rather than take it out on their children. Good parents might yell at their kids, but then they realize they are out of control, and remove themselves or their kids from the situation. Parents who are decent people do not kill their children. God created us to nurture our children, not kill them! The people who can overcome this nurturing instinct, or who are born without it, but have kids anyway, those people might kill their own kids, yes.

    People like Andrea Yates who seemed to be a good mom, but who may have been suffering from post-partum psychosis, are another subject entirely. Maybe Patsy had mental damage from her cancer treatment, and snapped that night. I know it's a theory a lot of people have. But with all this information about Burke that we now have, including the candy smeared with feces, I just wonder how much of that night belonged to Burke.

    I agree, we do know that Patsy wrote the ransom note. That's really about all we do know for sure.
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    By the way, I just remembered a point a very astute WS member mentioned not long ago which I read: Burke wasn't tall enough to turn the "block of wood" which rotated to secure the cellar door at the top. I would be surprised if he could have done that without help.

    Of course he could have stood on one of the chairs in the basement to do that, which in fact JR brought in that mysterious "chair in front of the train room door" in 1998 with his DA interview with Smit.

    But all that staging for a not yet 10 year old? I don't think so.

    It's an interesting point, at any rate. BPD Officer Reichenbach noticed the wood block was turned to "lock" the door and he was supposed to be the first person in the basement that morning...other than the killer(s), of course.
  9. sboyd

    sboyd Member

    Great point. So he hits her and they clean up the mess. Is what I am getting. But Jesus to defile her like that.
  10. sboyd

    sboyd Member


    I think John had to know what was going on that night. It had to be insane in that house. That is probably why he is so adament that he took Melatonin and passed out. Rigggggggggght. He has to say I heard nothing. He is now protecting his son and his wife who is writing the note and she herself takes some xanax or something - had to - because the writing gets better as it progresses. They all know. (The most bizarre thing is the defiling of JB). But then again look at Cindy Anthony and the lengths she has gone to protect Casey Anthony. Incredible.

    But then again, remember it was said that Burke came to them in the early hours when they were calling 911 and he asked what was going on and John said "were not talking to you". That was recorded I believe.

    That even lends more credence to Burke being involved. I always thought - well that was fairly cruel to talk to him like that, but if you knew this was his doing, one would talk to him like that.

    Patsy is all over the crime scene - so she knows for sure- now we are adding someone else into the mix due to more evidence. And it seems right. As far as John goes, he knows - there was too much going on. Way too much. And didn't a neighbor say something about the lights going on and off in the kitchen - so much time has passed I forget, but I seem to remember it. What the "f" happened that night.

    Maybe JB came down while Burke and Patsy were having tea and pineapple and Burke got jealous. Hey, it is plausible.
  11. sboyd

    sboyd Member

    I can see transference from her hair but I cannot see them being all over the crime scene. Now if they only found them on JB, I would say well she hugged her or combed her hair and that is how they got there, but they are all over the basement crime scene. Patsy was there.

    Oh, also, there was the greenery from the staircase found in JB's hair, if I remember correctly. Jesus, was she carried to the basement from upstairs - maybe something happened in the kitchen with that flashlight (it was found in the drawer right? and it fits her head yes?) and it was wiped clean ) and maybe she was brought upstairs - and there is no way, no way, that whoever brought her up did NOT feel that crack in her skull - it is 8 1/2 inches. Jesus.

    But the garrott is really hard wrapping my head around. and the rest is just vile. Would a parent do that to protect another child who did this by accident - Yes!
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yeah, well, I couldn't have done it.

    But remember how many people the Ramseys fingered as a child molester and killer in their books, TV interviews, public speaking; how many they sued, pocketing the money while knowing full well what happened to JonBenet and that they were responsible; how many careers they watched dissolve and how much hurt they caused knowingly, without so much as flinching on national TV, Patsy dry-crying to convince the public she was too good to do this.

    Marilyn Van Derbur once said about her parents (her father molested her from age five to eighteen and Derbur believed her mother knew and turned her eye deliberately) when describing what they would have done to cover up the incest: "They'd have killed me and then gone to lunch."

    I think in families with incest, covering it up at all costs is more common than people know.
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    I remember the chair being mentioned by John Ramsey, KK. More than likely the chair was probably in the basement, so he didn't need to carry that downstairs. So many things we forget. Only ten more days until my book arrives. Thank you again for all the time taken to print pages from "Foreign Faction". I would have been lost without them! Has Chief Kolar signed you up to work in his office yet? :)
  14. cynic

    cynic Member

    Not only is there a chair, but the stool would have probably also sufficed

    I'm not sure if this is the same chair or yet another chair.
    (This picture is from Kolar's book.)

  15. Karen

    Karen Member

    Patsy was a pig. That's all I have for now. Carryon.
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Sorry I just saw this, sboyd.

    I can't remember if Kolar mentioned urine on the carpet specifically outside the cellar door, but he did say LE believe JonBenet died there, where the garrote was constructed, by the paint tray.

    Lou Smit is the only source I've ever seen for that "urine on the carpet" info; he actually said that, probably in one of the Tracey crocs, but I honestly don't remember specifically. I do remember him saying it, though, because jams told everyone that, and when I heard Smit say it later, I knew her source had been Smit, as I had suspected, so I made note of it.

    Whether Smit was telling the truth, I can't say. But the urine on the front of her longjohns, the paintbrush splinters by the paint tray near that door, the ligature knot tied on the back of her neck, the green paint particle on her chin which matched that in the paint tray, a carpet fiber on her chin from the basement carpet, as well--these are things we've seen presented as evidence from various sources through the years. Now Kolar adds his inside information as a good source; so it does add up to that being the location of her death.
  17. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    We know the FAO Swartz wrapping paper was used for 1996 Christmas presents since we have a photo taken of JonBenet on Christmas morning next to a present wrapped in that paper. In a crime scene photo of the basement, the end of some FAO Swartz paper can be seen at the bottom of the pic. Thanks to ACandyRose's website, we know what the FAO Swartz paper looked like that year.

    In the photo provided by KoldKase from Kolar's book, we see a Lego System Space Station (possibly a birthday present for Burke) sitting in the basement floor against a wall. Or was that just an empty box, and Burke had already opened the Lego System on Christmas morning? Maybe the LEGO toy was assembled somewhere else in the basement or house, and the box was kept for instructions and later storage.

    Are there two more FAO Swartz-wrapped presents in front of the box, or is it wrapping paper that has been prematurely torn off the box before Burke's birthday? If the images are gifts, could one of them be the package of Bloomies underwear meant for JonBenet's older cousin, Jeny Davis?

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Good question, Cherokee. We might actually learn the answer to it except...oh, it was Team Ramsey's PI who found the alleged package of Bloomies in the packed boxes from the home, so guess we can't expect anything like the truth from that source ever coming to light.

    Since Kolar obviously never heard a peep about that package Lin Wood so infamously handed over to Lacy five years AFTER the crimes, apparently it just disappeared back into Team Ramsey's black hole of non-intruder evidence. No fingerprints on a plastic package? No DNA testing from the alleged original source of the Bloomies with that Holy Grail of "touch" DNA on them? Ah well, clearly it wasn't important to Team Ramsey Head Shill Lacy if there was--meaning no intruder evidence to be found, and anything leading back to the Ramseys simply never counted with her.

    Gosh, you don't suppose they destroyed that evidence, do you? I mean, that's even worse than withholding evidence, right?

    My heart's going pity pat! But never mind, la di da!

    We also have another photo of JB at the Christmas tree with lots of FAO Schwarz wrapped presents around her:

    From the cover of "Not the Ramseys" Whitson's self-published book:

    Attached Files:

  19. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    Random Thoughts

    Karen, I'm with you. The Ramsey home is kind of a metaphor for their lives. All glossy and "pretty" on the outside and an absolute filthy mess outside of the public eye.

    That's the first time I've seen the picture of JonBenet by the Christmas tree. Oh my! It absolutely breaks my heart to see her hamming it up on Christmas morning, surrounded by every child's dream of new toys and all the joy that day should bring. To think that she had only hours to live before her brutal murder is beyond comprehending.

    About the golf clubs - some have questioned whether Burke would've been able to wield a long, ungainly club and bring it down with such force on JonBenet's head. We are a family of golfers and have various clubs of different lengths and weights. Our children all had junior clubs - not toys but made to fit the shorter stature of children. I'm wondering if the Ramseys basement might've had some children's size clubs?

    I was never a BDI but, after reading Kolar's book and listening to some of the arguments here, I'm definitely seeing how putting Burke into the equation clears up some of the issues I've had with niggling pieces that didn't quite fit into any other theories.
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2012
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Ha ha, yeah, I can believe they destroyed evidence. They have certainly withheld and twisted evidence and refused to subpoena evidence ... anything to help their bosom-buddy Ramseys.

    Thanks for the pic. It's sad to see JonBenet so full of life and know she wouldn't live another 24 hours.
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