Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Tricia, Sep 1, 2006.
Well, you'd never get a job in Law Enforcement in Boulder!!!
ok...i'll bite ...lol..
why were they even given the option ...not to return to Colorado ?
Yes youre right...i'm not the most tactful...or that easily bought (takes two dates, a good bottle of red..and lots of sweet talk!! ) ...in fact Im an ogre of a bloke.( 6'2" and 200 ). its probably terribly naieve of me..but gutless bastards with lawyers dont particularly scare me !!....never get elected to a post !!
but I digress.
Such an amatuerish effort of policing ( in forst 48 ) i'd buy from a two horse 3 bars and a garage town....but I thought ( wrongly ) that Boulder was a little bit more with it !!
I've got to stop watchig the Halmark channel!!
Bob ... good news! I recently received permission to add Tom Miller's side-by-side analysis of Patsy's handwriting and the ransom note as an addendum to the (stickied) thread containing my linguistic and handwriting analysis of the ransom note. I also plan to post the Enquirer article as an addendum. That way, all of the handwriting comparisons are in one place for everyone to see.
But, you're right ... it would be good to have the Enquirer article posted on this thread as well ... especially since I don't have time to get it put on the analysis thread this morning. Hopefully, I'll have a chance to get it done by tonight or tomorrow.
Until then ... here's the link to the article:
And here's the link to Tom Miller's side-by-side analysis:
this has probably been covered many times...but as I cant find it quickly...and its late here ....and im prone to laziness at times..
I'll barrel on..
To this particular father ...the most damning piece of evidence is the behaviour of a certain one ..John Ramsey... father of the deceased.
The very fact he isnt upturning heaven and earth..and persuading hell it'd be in their favour to cough up the killer of his lovely girl...or more the point...going through the theatrics of doing so..is for mine the most incriminating aspect of this whole thing.
This would ( to me ) come in over and above all the material evidence.. his behaviour is reprohensible..
But this is an obvious fact of the matter, one that seems entirely lost on the vast majority .
This tells me a number of things.. that he is both intelligent and spineless..and yet at the same time able to call to task many to do his bidding. It also tells me he was a reactive in the affair, and that its his guilt inthis whole affair that imasculates him and prevent him from doing what any decent father would do...demand justice...irrespective of who it invioved.
The Karma Faeries will get him !!
"I think every talking head explains this fiber evidence away because it was Patsy's house so it would have been normal for her hair and clothing fibers to be found everywhere."
Except she claimed she never went near those objects or places while wearing that sweater. And that "whole body on her body" story would require magic!
"I know what you mean, Tricia. The Ramseys and their supporters always claimed that they (the Ramseys) were viciously targeted by the media. But I personally think that the police and the DA were fairly easy on them. The Ramseys called the shots, not the police. Any other parents who had this much fiber evidence on their murdered daughter would have been arrested!"
At this point, I think it's important we define Boulder LE as either BDA or BPD. Split it up into two camps because that's exactly what it was...two camps working one investigation in two different directions.
I see the MAJOR problem right from the start was the fact that the BDA moved right in and hovered over the investigation to ensure the Ramseys remained outside of suspicion. Keep in mind that Mike Bynum was a former prosecutor and had friends, like Trip DeMuth!, in the BDA's office. Bynum contacted the BDA/DeMuth immediately. The BDA showed up at the Ramseys and put a stop to anything and everything the police tried to do. Bynum also contacted Haddon's office and retained counsel for Ramsey.
As far as threats are concerned, consider the body-for-ransom fiasco. Who called it that? Mike Bynum. That's what made it to the press and it was just another nail of many in the BPD's coffin the BDA put there. The true story was that Eller asked Meyer if Meyer could hold the body longer for any reason so the BPD could do some more investigating, and Meyer said no, legally he couldn't hold the body if he didn't have a reason, and so the body was released. But no one knows that. All the know is the story perpetrated by the RST via Bynum via the BDA that the cops tried to hold the body!
What is also never mentioned is the targeting of the BPD for not bringing anyone in to help them. Of course, this is what teh BDA accuses the BPD of doing because the BPD would not bring in the BDA's friends from Denver!
First of all, prosecutors don't investigate...not while the body is still on the floor! The POLICE gather the evidence, hand it over to the prosecutors to prosecute! But here, the BDA placed itself between the BPD and the Ramseys, hindering the investigation and refusing to allow the police to do their job.
As far as bringing in help, the BPD brought in the best they could...the FBI. The FBI was there first thing in the morning setting telephone traps for when the "killer called" that morning. Also, while Arndt babysat the crowd at the Ramseys, the FBI were set up at the BPD and analyzing the ransom note!
Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the BDA claims the BPD wouldn't get help...because the help the BPD did get...the FBI...analyzed the note and the crimescene (from officers reports) and stated right out, this was an inside job.
Mike Bynum and Trip DeMuth had their work set out for them!
But WHY did the BDA want to put itself between the BPD and the Ramseys?
was there history of animosity between the BPD and BDA before this case..or indeed between individuals ??
Thanks for straightening that out for me. My head starts spinning with confusion when I try to remember who was on which side. It's like that old Abbott and Costello bit - "Who's On First?"
So if I understand correctly, you are saying that the DA's office got involved in a way that completely screwed things up for the PD, right? Have any of the cops that were at the house that day (besides Linda Arndt) ever talked about it?
Carol and Kanga -
The BDA was headed (at the time) by Alex Hunter who was in bed with the Ramsey's lawyer firm, Hal Haddon & Company. Hunter and Haddon had been business partners at one time. They also had mutual friends within the political structure of Colorado.
Alex Hunter always plea-bargained his cases. He never tried them in a court of law because then he might lose, and it would look bad on his record. So ... even though he knew the Ramseys were good for it, particularly Patsy ... he decided to play nicey-nice with the Ramseys and their lawyers hoping for a plea bargain. In other words, if they handed over evidence to the Ramsey lawyers (as asked) and gave the Ramseys everything they wanted, perhaps Patsy would spill the beans about what really happened, and Hunter could charge her with something less than murder, like "involuntary manslaughter."
Hunter believed what happened to JonBenet was accident covered up by the Ramseys, so if Patsy pleaded to "involuntary manslaughter" ... he could go lenient on her, ask for probation which she could complete in a few years, the case would be closed, and everyone goes home.
But that's not what happened. The Ramsey's attorneys strung Hunter along playing as if they might cooperate any minute, but they never had any intention of doing so. Finally, Hunter had given so much case evidence away to the Ramseys (and wouldn't subpoena records, etc.), Steve Thomas got fed up with the "investigation" and blew the whistle on what was happening. That's when the fur hit the fan. Steve resigned, and the investigation was stalled because Hunter wasn't willing to go after the Ramseys, but he couldn't clear them either.
Enter Mary Keenan (now Lacy) as the new Boulder DA, and enter Lin Wood, the Ramseys NEW attorney who threatened to sue the city of Boulder if the "investigation" wasn't taken away from the BPD and given to the BDA. Lacy capitulated, took the case away from the BPD, and began her blind and biased quest to find an intruder because she already believed the Ramseys were innocent.
According to John's interview with a pastor in Hawaii taped last April, they had been praying for a miracle, and Lacy called them up saying she was the new DA and believed they were innocent. John told Lacy she was the answer to their prayers, and she told him she believed in miracles. So, after the hugfest, they all tripped merrily down Intruder Lane ... ignoring evidence and trying to find someone, ANYONE, to pin JonBenet's death on except the Ramseys.
Everything was going well until Lacy trusted Lou Smit (a two-bit detective conned by Patsy's charm) and Michael Tracey (a CU scam artist) and their assertions that John Mark Karr knew case evidence not revealed to the public.
Apparently, Lacy never bothered to read the case file, or even official investigative interviews of the Ramseys. She didn't even listen to pro-Ramsey people like Trip DeMuth who said there was no case evidence that hadn't been made public. Lacy swallowed whole-hog Tracey's fingering of Karr, and never questioned it. Lacy wanted so badly to find an intruder for the Ramseys, she didn't use common sense or rational thinking.
And THAT is where the case stands today. The Ramseys have the BDA (and the media) in their hip pocket and no one can do a darn thing about it. Gee ... it's nice to be rich and well-connected, isn't it? You can, literally, get away with murder.
â€œYes, part of the problem was the Boulder LE's refusal to let anyone help with this case.â€
Excuse me, heymom, but I think you need to read the Boulder press releases that I have posted on several threads several times (they are also archived at ACRâ€™s.) The BPD was working with the FBI and investigated many, many people, not just the Ramseys. They worked with the BDA but that effort was disastrous. They also entertained one after another of Lou Smitâ€™s intruders. To claim BPD refused to let anyone else help with this case just does not stand up to the facts.
â€œI thought ( incorrectly it seems ) that if the Police wanted to talk to you..if you were a person of 'interest ' well you just bloody well turned up and answered the man!!â€
Absolutely not, Kangatruth! No one is obligated to talk to police about anything. Very few people know that which is why everyone always does which is what causes so much trouble for them in the end. Unless police have an arrest warrant or probable cause order to search, without your consent, they canâ€™t do squat.
â€œwhy were they even given the option ...not to return to Colorado?â€
Kanga, please letâ€™s not bash the BPD, k? The Ramseys were never officially named as suspects in this case. That means they are free not to talk, and to go anywhere they wish.
"To this particular father ...the most damning piece of evidence is the behaviour of a certain one ..John Ramsey... father of the deceased. The very fact he isnt upturning heaven and earth..and persuading hell it'd be in their favour to cough up the killer of his lovely girl...or more the point...going through the theatrics of doing so..is for mine the most incriminating aspect of this whole thing. This would ( to me ) come in over and above all the material evidence.. his behaviour is reprohensible..But this is an obvious fact of the matter, one that seems entirely lost on the vast majority .â€
Kanga, itâ€™s not lost on the vast majority of people. But JRâ€™s conduct cannot be used in any criminal prosecution as evidence.
â€œBut WHY did the BDA want to put itself between the BPD and the Ramseys?â€
Carol, I believe Lou Smit answered your question quite blatantly when he resigned from the BDA. His reason? Because after investigating more than 100 leads, including all of Smit's, BPD had ruled out EVERY other person of interest but the Ramseys! As long as Smit was THE BDA investigator, he made every effort to interfere with the police investigation trying to convince BPD of his intruder theory which they never bought because the evidence just doesnâ€™t support it. Frustrated that he couldnâ€™t turn the tide of that investigation, he quit, and sued the BDA to get his work product, the infamous Power Point presentation.
â€œwas there history of animosity between the BPD and BDA before this case..or indeed between individuals ??â€
Kanga, there is usually a tense relationship between any DAâ€™s office and the police. These are all colossal egos vying for power and control. In a perfect world, the police are supposed to investigate a crime and turn their case over to the DA who evaluates it for prosecution. If the DA feels he doesnâ€™t have sufficient evidence to successfully prosecute, he will send the cops back to the drawing board until they come up with it. Cops donâ€™t like attorneys telling them their investigation is deficient, attorneys donâ€™t like cops arguing with them. This is SOP in the world of criminal law. In this case, the profound notoriety and publicity of the case just magnified that tension and power/control, and when you add in Haddonâ€™s people and Smit, who was recommended to the AH by Haddon in the first place, trying to turn the cops off to the Ramseys, it was a true recipe for disaster.
Ginj and Cher, RIGHT ON!
Let's talk about that fiber evidence mentioned in the 2000 Atlanta interviews.
According to Meyer's autopsy report, there was evidence that JB's body had been wiped down. Apparently not thoroughly enough.
John Ramsey's black Israeli sweater, which he admitted he wore THAT NIGHT to the Whites' Christmas party, left fibers in JB's crotch and her panties. DESPITE the body having been wiped down.
Patsy Ramsey's infamous sweater jacket not only left fibers entwined in the "garotte," but all over the white blanket, the body, duct tape and paint tray. DESPITE the body having been wiped down.
Intruder theorists will tell you Patsy's sweater fibers got entwined in the "garotte" and all over the body because she draped herself on it, crying out for God to raise JB from the dead. Logical, but insufficient.
The duct tape, blanket and paint tray stayed in the basement according to JR. And PR told police that she was not in the basement at any time while wearing that jacket.
Intruder theorists have no explanation for how Patsy's sweater fibers got in the basement, nor John's sweater fibers got on JB's crotch and interior panties. To say that it was their home where they lived everyday as some explanation for how those very fibers and NONE OTHERS (including any intruder's) came to float down to the basement and just happen to land in very crucial areas of this crime scene is as nonsensical as the entire intruder theory itself. Even if we were to consider that explanation, please tell me how various crucial sweater fibers could float all the way down to the little wine room that was sealed so tight the door wouldn't open easily, only to come to rest on a body that was clothed and wrapped up in a blanket. Those fibers would have to be super-flyers with a purpose. More nonsense. Yet nonsense is just what intruder theorists rely on solely in their obsessed and frantic efforts to overcome the real and tangible evidence in this case of Ramsey involvement. This latest Karr Wreck stands as irrefutable proof.
Clearly whomever wiped the body down didn't do such a great job of it either.
The reason why most people aren't aware of this evidence is because it was disclosed only in those 2000 Atlanta interviews, and the transcripts of those interviews were not publicly released for quite some time. Once they were, and you would have read them here first at ACR/FFJ, the case had been taken over by Mary Lacy who hired Lou Smit then allowed the intruder theorists including Tracy, Smit, St Augustin, Gray and LimpWood to turn the public's attention to the intruder theory with one sensationalistic and fraudulent crockumentary after another, to say nothing of all the public statements made by those people over the last 5 years. Lacy cleared the way for the intruder theory to have its day in the media and courts, which I believe, was her agreement with Lin Wood in exchange for not suing Boulder and the state.
For those not in the law business, the greatest SOP defense when there IS no other reasonable one is SODDI (some other dude did it) and creating diversions to get the spotlight off your clients and inundated with the other dude. We have all witnessed that unfettered defense over the last 5 years in this case, and a failed attempt at it in the Scott Peterson case, among others. Lin Wood, like Patsy Ramsey, hates the media unless he can use it to spin the SODDI defense.
I'm glad to hear that Wendy Murphy and a few other talking heads are now giving this crucial evidence air time as it deserves.
Thank you so much, DejaNu, for clearing up the confusion for me! I am in the process of reading PMPT, but I have to admit that the Cast of Characters and their agendas is nothing if it's not confusing! And not knowing how the legal and law enforcement worlds work and fit together, I am at a further handicap. It's a world I really don't want to get to know in a personal way, either. But with this case, you do really have to understand the particular mix of elements that led to where we are now, don't you?
Ooops, I forgot to mention. Someone asked about Klonopin. The autopsy report included a full toxicology report as well and NO drugs were found in JB's system. You can read the full reports for yourself at ACR's.
Who cares if Patsy Ramsey was taking Klonopin? She admitted she was taking Benadryl which I highly doubt simply because no medical doctor in their right mind would prescribe Benadryl for extreme stress and trauma. But then, what was a pediatrician doing prescribing meds for this adult in crisis anyway?????
Heymom, if you are going to be an officiando of any true crime, you will need to get educated on the medical, psychological and legal processes. If you don't, you will be at a total loss, that's for sure! lol
:404: :duh: :lame: :computer: :book:
This might take a while...
Heymom the Big Dunce, but at least she knows she doesn't know!
Not a dunce, heymom, and certainly not naive for long. PMPT is a very complex book to start with on this case but if you take your time and digest all the facts, it's a good foundation. I would also suggest reading everything you can at ACR's. One of the best things about the FFJ community is that we are NOT all amateurs, many bringing years of professional experience to the case table. You can learn from many here as you continue to discuss the case. You will without doubt come away with far more than you probably ever wanted to learn about criminal law!
Kangatruth, You have tuned right into the crux of the matter. All of what you have said above, should have happened. It didn't! Too much leniency was granted to the Ramseys by Sergeant Larry Mason.
Steve Thomas "JonBenÃ©t" HB (Courtesy of Little -FFJ)
And, even if he admits he wore that sweater that night to the party, what are the fibers doing on clothing that was put on JB after she got home (and clothing that he said was not put on by him).
Some might get on JB's body from that contact, but not inside/entwined in a garotte, stuck to duct tape Patsy didn't touch and in a paint tray that she said she had never used when wearing that jacket. Even if she had said "Oh, yes, I was painting one time wearing that jacket" (she never said that, I'm just making that up), that might not be an explanation for the jacket fibers being in the tray - fibers might not be that easily shed.
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