Forensic evidence

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, Sep 21, 2006.

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  1. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Fibers from John's shirt were found inside JBS underpants - this is very damaging evidence.

    8-29-00 John Ramsey videotaped interview, Source:

    7 Q. (By Mr. Levin) I've got some
    8 questions, Mr. Ramsey, that deal with fiber
    9 evidence, and this is probably going to be
    10 questions that your lawyer is going to advise
    11 you not to answer, but I would like to pose
    12 them to you.
    21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is
    22 our belief based on forensic evidence that
    23 there are hairs that are associated, that the
    24 source is the collared black shirt that you
    25 sent us that are found in your daughter's
    1 underpants, and I wondered if you --
    2 A. Bull****. I don't believe that.
    3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to
    4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --
    5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to
    6 disgrace --
    7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I
    8 think you are. That's disgusting.

    I suppose that in line 23 this was a typo, and it should read 'fibers' and not 'hairs', for the question was about fiber evidence.

    Could you very well informed posters help me with a question: does there exist an official source on the internet aside from this interview where it says that the fibers found in JB's underwear matched those of John's black shirt?

    For an IDI on another forum claims that what was said in the interview was merely "a police ploy which didn't work", i. e. a trick used by Levin to corner John Ramsey.
    Since the best way in such discussions is to confront the other person with officially established facts (CBI lab reports for example), tia for your help here.
  2. heymom

    heymom Member

    I think it's in Steve Thomas' book but I don't know if you can access it on the internet. I'll give you page numbers shortly.

  3. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    "For an IDI on another forum claims that what was said in the interview was merely 'a police ploy which didn't work', i. e. a trick used by Levin to corner John Ramsey."

    That IDI is blowing it out their exhaust! The rules of the Colorado Bar clearly state that Levin could be disbarred if he did that!
  4. Spade

    Spade Member


    "That IDI is blowing it out their exhaust! The rules of the Colorado Bar clearly state that Levin could be disbarred if he did that!"

    LinWad tried that same BS on a talk show(can't remember which one) and got away with it. Too bad Punisher wasn't the host because he is absolutely right.
  5. Try Patsy's interview... she was interviewed before JR that day, and JR's testimony on the fibers was slim given that it was established during Patsy's interview that neither of them would be answering questions about fibers. From Patsy's 2000 interview...

    8 MR. LEVIN: I understand your
    9 position.
    10 In addition to those questions,
    11 there are some others that I would like you
    12 to think about whether or not we can have
    13 Mrs. Ramsey perhaps in the future answer. I
    14 understand you are advising her not to today,
    15 and those are there are black fibers that,
    16 according to our testing that was conducted,
    17 that match one of the two shirts that was
    18 provided to us by the Ramseys, black shirt.
    19 Those are located in the
    20 underpants of JonBenet Ramsey, were found in
    21 her crotch area
    , and I believe those are two
    22 other areas that we have intended to ask
    23 Mrs. Ramsey about if she could help us in
    24 explaining their presence in those locations.
  6. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    "LinWad tried that same BS on a talk show(can't remember which one) and got away with it."

    Larry King. Of course...

    "Too bad Punisher wasn't the host because he is absolutely right."

    There isn't a day that goes by that I don't dream of hosting a show like that! I'd have him quaking with fear!

    Even fight, I could take him!
  7. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    I've been ranting on every JB forum since the 2000 Atlanta interview transcripts became available about those Israeli sweater fibers and what damning evidence it is, too!

    And I have also been stating all along too that the Atlanta interviews were conducted by Michael Kane and Barry Levin, both licensed, practicing attorneys. They were NOT conducted by law enforcement, although LE members were present during questioning.

    While LE can fabricate such things to entice perps to confess, lawyers cannot. The interviews were conducted by lawyers in a deposition style forum, not a police interrogation. LimpWood and every IDI who claims this is fabricated evidence is full of BS!
  8. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Thanks to you all for your very informative answers! I see more clearly now re the facts about the fiber evidence.
    The knowledge you people have about the JBR case is simply awesome.
    So fibers from John's black shirt were found both in jB's underpants as well as in the crotch area. Now if that isn't totally incriminating evidence, what else is?
  9. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks for that info Deja Nu. You have now put a period where I had a question mark.
  10. Spade

    Spade Member

    Evidence list

    This list makes interesting reading:

    Ramsey Evidence List (partial)

    Item type Item Description/location Quantity ID # Initials

    Weapon brick 1 12 BAB
    Bedding Comforter from victim's bed 1 37 BAB
    Bedding sheet top 1 38 BAB
    Bedding sheet Bottom 1 39 BAB
    Bedding Pillowcase 1 40 BAB
    Clothing tights black 1 41 BAB
    Linens bath towel 1 42 BAB
    Clothing bath robe 1 43 BAB
    Clothing underwear 1 45 BAB
    Writing implement Marker black 1 46 BAB
    Clothing turtleneck velvet 1 47 BAB
    Weapon brick Red clay 1 48 BAB
    Christmas Christmas ornament w/string 1 49 BAB
    Weapon golf club cover 1 50 BAB
    Linens towel 1 51 BAB
    Toilet tissue 1 52 BAB
    Toilet liquid from toilet 1 53 BAB
    Toilet liquid from toilet 1 54 BAB
    Clothing tights black and white 1 56 BAB
    Clothing underwear childs 1 57 BAB
    Clothing underwear childs 1 58 BAB
    Clothing underwear childs 1 59 BAB
    Writing implement Sharpie 1 60 BAB
    Clothing tights black 1 62 BAB
    Clothing sweater black/red/green christmas 1 63 BAB
    Clothing pants black & gray, girls 1 64 BAB
    Clothing vest black, velvet 1 65 BAB
    Clothing shirt black 1 66 BAB
    Clothing trousers black 1 67 BAB
    Clothing Shoes 2 68 BAB
    Paper samples Notepad 1 69 BAB
    Christmas garland 71 BAB
    Christmas garland 1 72 BAB
    Weapon baseball bat 1 74 BAB
    Christmas Bag containing ornaments Santa Claus Swift 1 76 BAB
    Christmas Santa Claus suit 1 77 BAB
    Records Note 1 78 BAB
    Trace evidence Fingerprints of victim 79 BAB
    Trace evidence Finger prints -hand drawing 80 BAB
    records Birthday card 1 82 BAB
    Paper samples Legal pad white lined 1 83 BAB
    Christmas bow satin 1 86 BAB
    Christmas garland 34 1 through 34 BAB
    Bedding comforter Black 1 1 BAH
    Bedding sheet black, velvet 1 2 BAH
    Bedding bed sheet 1 3 BAH
    Bedding sheet bottom 1 4 BAH
    Wire Wire tied in knot 1 5 BAH
    Weapon hammer 1 6 BAH
    Hardware Laptop computer 1 7 BAH
    Writing implement markers black 3 8 BAH
    Writing implement pens 2 9 BAH
    Writing implement marker and pens One marker, two pens 3 10 BAH
    Writing implement markers large 3 11 BAH
    Writing implement pens 5 12 BAH
    Writing implement ball point pen 1 13 BAH
    Writing implement fountain pen 1 14 BAH
    Video video cassettes 2 15 BAH
    Audio audio tape 1 16 BAH
    Trace evidence paper brown 1 17 BAH
    Video video cassette 1 19 BAH
    Software computer discs 2 20 BAH
    Records Christmas card 1 21 BAH
    Video VHS video tape 1 22 BAH
    Software computer disc 1 23 BAH
    Video Betamax video tape 1 24 BAH
    Video video tape 1 25 BAH
    Video VHS tape 1 26 BAH
    Software NEC computer disc 1 27 BAH
    Software Macintosh computer disc 1 28 BAH
    Software Macintosh McWrite computer disc 1 29 BAH
    Video Betamax video tape 1 30 BAH
    Computer manual Compuserve book 1 31 BAH
    Computer manual I didn't know Compuserve book 1 32 BAH
    Computer manual Dave Berry Cyberspace book 1 33 BAH
    Clothing sweatpants blue 1 34 BAH
    Clothing Sweatshirt gray 1 35 BAH
    Hardware Computer hard drive 1 35 BAH
    Clothing underwear girls 1 36 BAH
    Records Notepad w/writing 1 37 BAH
    Computer manual Macintosh users guidebook 1 39 BAH
    Computer manual Apple Guide CD Roms Titles book 1 40 BAH
    Software NEC disc 1 41 BAH
    Software Supramodem disc 1 42 BAH
    Software hypercard disc 1 43 BAH
    Software NEC floppy disc 1 44 BAH
    Computer manual Red line users guide and disc 1 45 BAH
    Software Macintosh system discs 8 46 BAH
    Software Macintosh CD Rom discs 8 47 BAH
    Software Dyson discs 10 48 BAH
    Software various computer discs 38 49 BAH
    Video video cassette 1 50 BAH
    Writing implement pen black 1 51 BAH
    Computer manual computer book 1 52 BAH
    Clothing underwear mens 1 53 BAH
    Clothing pants mens 1 54 BAH
    Audio cassette tape 1 55 BAH
    Clothing underwear girls 1 56 BAH
    Writing implement pen black 1 57 BAH
    Trace evidence Cigarette butts, leaves & bag 58 BAH
    Software CD Rom discs and computer disc (2 discs and 1 disc) 3 59 BAH
    Software CD Rom discs and two computer discs 7 60 BAH
    Clothing Underwear girls 1 61 BAH
    Clothing Underwear girls 1 62 BAH
    software computer disc 1 63 BAH
    Publication Envelope w/prayer book 1 64 BAH
    software misc. floppy discs 8 65 BAH
    Software floppy discs 5.25" 3 66 BAH
    Video VHS tape 1 67 BAH
    Publication magazine articles 2 68 BAH
    Software Prodigy Parselwork 1 69 BAH
    Video video tapes 22 70 BAH
    Video video tapes 10 71 BAH
    Paper samples sheet of paper 1 72 BAH
    Records paper w/names and phones # 1 72 BAH
    Photography Camera with 3 rolls 35 mm film 4 74 BAH
    Writing implement black felt pens 2 75 BAH
    Clothing underwear Girls 5 76 BAH
    Clothing underwear Girls 2 77 BAH
    Video video tapes 20 78 BAH
    Weapon golf club 1 79 BAH
    Photos photo's 6 81 BAH
    Trace evidence hair blonde 2 GLI
    Weapon baseball bat 1 3 GLI
    Weapon golf clubs 2 4 GLI
    Misc. Window grate 1 GRV
    Clothing Blouse 1 7 JRB
    Clothing Underwear 1 8 JRB
    Clothing Underwear 1 9 JRB
    Video VHS tapes 15 9 JRB
    Video VHS tapes 9 10 JRB
    Video VHS tapes 17 11 JRB
    Video VHS tapes 13 12 JRB
    Video VHS tapes “4 (5)†4 13 JRB
    Video VHS tape 1 14 JRB
    Publication Newspaper article 1 15 JRB
    Writing implement magic marker 1 16 JRB
    Christmas gift box w/black velvet 1 17 JRB
    Records Phone and address book 1 18 JRB
    records Ramsey residence flier 1 19 JRB
    Weapon flashlight 1 20 JRB
    Video VCR tapes 2 21 JRB
    Records note Handwritten 1 1 12-31-96 JRB
    Writing implement Sharpie 1 1 1-29-96 JRB
    Video VHS videotape 1 2 12-31-96 JRB
    Writing implement Sharpie 1 2 1-29-96 JRB
    Video VHS videotape 1 3 12-31-96 JRB
    Paper samples Notepad 1 3 1-29-96 JRB
    Computer manual Outer disc users guide and papers 1 4 12-31-96 JRB
    Video VHS video tapes 2 5 12-31-96 JRB
    Video VHS videotapes 2 6 12-31-96 JRB
    Writing implement Marker 1 6 1-29-96 JRB
    Trace evidence Fibers from area by victim 1 KKY
    Trace evidence Fibers from wine cellar 2 KKY
    Clothing Sweatshirt Avalanche, covering body 1 4 KKY
    Bedding Blanket covering body 1 5 KKY
    Wire Wire near body 1 7 KKY
    Trace evidence Fibers from under body 9 KKY
    Bedding blanket White, in wine cellar 1 11 KKY
    Clothing Nightgown Pink, Barbie, from wine cellar 1 12 KKY
    Trace evidence Glass broken, from wine cellar 1 13 KKY
    Trace evidence Hair fibers from floor of wine cellar 14 KKY
    Trace evidence Wooden shards wooden, near paint tray 22 KKY
    Misc. Paint tray 1 25 KKY
    Trace evidence Paper blue, near rear south facing door 1 26 KKY
    Ligature Rope from backyard 1 32 KKY
    Ligature String white, from sled 1 33 KKY
    Clothing Earring found in street 1 34 KKY
    Misc. Canvas bag in crawlspace 1 37 KKY
    Misc. sheet metal black, in wine cellar 1 39 KKY
    Christmas ornament broken, purple, from basement 1 40 KKY
    Weapon pocket knife red, w/broken ornament 1 41 KKY
    Trace evidence fibers vacuumed 42 KKY
    Writing implement Felt tip pen 1 43 KKY
    Trace evidence Hair fibers from victim's pillow 44 KKY
    Trace evidence Fibers from victim's bed 46 KKY
    Trace evidence Fibers From victim's pillow 47 KKY
    Trace evidence Fibers vacuumed from victim's bed 48 KKY
    Trace evidence fibers Vacuumed from victim's pillow and bedspread 50 KKY
    Writing implement Sharpie marker 1 51 KKY
    Trace evidence Hair fibers from Mr. & Mrs. Ramsey's bed 52 KKY
    Trace evidence Hair found in brush in Mr. Ramsey's bathroom 53 KKY
    records Rolodex in Mr. Ramsey's desk 1 54 KKY
    Christmas FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 55 KKY
    Christmas FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 56 KKY
    Christmas FAO Schwartz Partially wrapped 1 57 KKY
    Writing implement Marker 1 58 KKY
    Writing implement Marker 1 59 KKY
    Records Note handwritten 1 61 KKY
    Records My Science Project" from Burke's bedroom 1 65 KKY
    Records Notepad yellow, w/writing 1 66 KKY
    Writing implement Pen 1 67 KKY
    Christmas evergreen needles Artificial 68 KKY
    Dining Bowl 1 71 KKY
    Computer manual Microsoft Word manuals and disc 1 76 KKY
    Video video tapes 10 77 KKY
    Video VHS tapes 7 78 KKY
    Records Letter to Santa 1 86 KKY
    Video VHS videotapes 7 88 KKY
    Video VHS tape 1 89 KKY
    Video VHS tapes 3 90 KKY
    photography rolls of film 35 mm 2 91 KKY
    records research paper and drawings Victims 3 92 KKY
    Photography Pentax camera and film 2 93 KKY
    Software CD Roms. floppy discs (2 & 3) 5 94 KKY
    Hardware Macintosh keyboard 1 95 KKY
    Hardware modem with power cord 1 96 KKY
    Hardware computer mouse 1 98 KKY
    Hardware Macintosh computer 1 99 KKY
    Hardware computer monitor 1 100 KKY
    Misc. sleeping mask 1 101 KKY
    Photos picture framed, of JonBenet 1 102 KKY
    Trace evidence window broken 1 104 KKY
    Photos picture framed, of Burke and JonBenet 1 105 KKY
    Weapon paint brush Broken 1 PI KKY
    Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 5 KRV
    Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 6 KRV
    Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 7 KRV
    Trace evidence Piece of window broken 1 8 KRV
    Misc. Door from basement 1 14 KRV
    Paper samples legal pad 1 15 KRV
    Paper samples legal notepads 2 16 KRV
    Video video cassette tape 1 17 KRV
    Paper samples legal notepad 1 18 KRV
    Software 3 1/2" computer discs 2 19 KRV
    Records envelope w/carpet samples 1 9 MTE
    Writing implement felt pen 1 11 MTE
    records bike registration 1 12 MTE
    Video Video from Hallway 1 13 MTE
    Writing implement felt tip pen 1 15 MTE
    Bedding bed sheet 1 16 MTE
    Trace evidence carpet 8 1 through 8 MTE
    Dining Spoon 1 5 PP
    Trace evidence Glass 1 6 PP
    Trace evidence Cotton from cellar room 7 PP
    Christmas Angel from Christmas tree 1 8 PP
    Toilet toilet tissue 1 10 PP
    publication book USN OCS Seachest 801 1 11 PP
    Lock Lock 1 12 PP
    Toilet Toilet seat lid 1 13 PP
    Publication Booklet how to use total one security control 1 14 PP
    Publication AD booklet and 2 newspapers 1 15 PP
    Software computer discs 2 16 PP
    Lock door lock 1 17 PP
    Lock door lock 1 18 PP
    Bedding Blanket black and gold 1 19 PP
    photos photos of victim 3 20 PP
    Misc. suitcase blue 1 21 PP
    Ligature Rope 1 81 RAH
    Paper samples Notepad 1 1 RAW
    Paper samples notepad 1 2 RAW
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2006
  11. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    A poster on the CourtTV board wrote:
    I am no legal expert, which is why your help here would be much appreciated.
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Maybe this is what DejaNu is talking about. This is from the Colorado Rules of Professional Conduct.
  13. heymom

    heymom Member

  14. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Colorado has rules???????????? :eek:

    Quick, call Boulder and tell them!
  15. Tril

    Tril Member

    I don't remember hearing if LE found anything incriminating on the Rs' computers. Were any computers taken into evidence? I recall hearing that some tabloid or another announced that Burke had sent an email to someone late on the 25th, but I don't think it was ever confirmed to be true.

    I've always wondered if the Rs tried to look up information on the Internet during the staging.
  16. tylin

    tylin Banned

    Thanks for posting the list of items taken from the home. Interesting that there were several items listed as weapons, such as a hammer, golf club, baseball bat and flash light.
  17. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Questioning the toilet rage theory

    Both the size 12 panties and the longjohns were stained with urine, the amount being big enough to stain the anterior legs too.
    But if toileting issues had been the cause of Patsy's rage, then wouldn't the Ramseys have made sure in their staging that JB was wearing dry underwear?

    And if the urine was from post-mortem release, wouldn't the Ramseys have noticed this too?

    If the urine was from post-mortem release, suppose JB had had a wetting/soiling accident before being attacked, then why was there so much urine in her bladder left that it would even stain the legs of her longjohns?

    Something doesn't add up here, and I'd be interested in others' thoughts on it.
  18. Good Question

    Good question Rashomon. I wondered the same thing. If they went through so much trouble to stage the crime scene why would they not change her clothes? However, if this happened after death, they likely would not have noticed. The urine would not have been soak and wet. Her body had been down there for at least 7 to 9 hours, and John Ramsey did not carry her body close to his...

    Also there was no urine in her bladder according to the autopsy report. "The bladder is contracted and contains no urine (Wecht, 348)."
  19. Spade

    Spade Member

    I agree that it is a good question SeekingJustice and Rashomon but I think the answer is simple. The Ramsey family were not sophisticated baby killers or ransom note writers.
  20. True, and had they had been anywhere other than Boulder they would have likely been charged. If the first responders would have done their job we would probably not be sitting here today. Cross-contamination would have been prevented and one of two things would have happened... Ramseys would have gone to jail for the murder of their daughter or other evidence that was possibly destroyed during the cross-contamination process would have been preserved and pointed to someone outside of the house. Clearly, we will never know if evidence was destroyed or if it was simply complicated by a massive attempt on the Ramsey's part to cover up their crime.
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