Handwriting analysis

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, May 26, 2007.

  1. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    We are having a controversial discussion on the Crimelibrary JBR forum as to the scale which was used in the testing of the Ramseys' handwriting

    On Larry King Live (March 28, 2000), Patsy said: .

    In the same interview, John says:
    Compare this with SteveThomas' statement on
    Larry Ling Live (April 14, 2000)


    (Pastsy's and John' statements are in this transcript too, inserted as videoclips).

    It would interest me which scale Chet Ubowski and his colleagues used.
    Was it the same scale which Patsy mentioned? If it was, did Patsy give a correct interpretation of the result?

    Why can this scale (where "5" allegedly equals 'elimination') not be found anywhere on official websites?

    According to Steve Thomas, out of 73 people whose handwriting was analyzed, only one showed evidence of authorship, and that was Patsy.

    John's story is that "they have looked at leads whose handwriting showed scored much highter than Patsy"? Team Ramsey had hired "their own" handwriting experts I supose ...

    TIA to anyone who could shed light on which scale was used and where.
  2. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member


    I can't help on the handwriting scale but I can tell you that JR must be blind as a bat if he looked at the note and didn't think the handwriting resembled PR's. After all, Aunty Pam apparently noticed it.
  3. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Not only that, but many RST will tell you they "copied" Patsy's writing to assist in FRAMING them, so for JR to deny it had any resemblance at all is pretty telling IMO
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    The Ramseys were using the "Anything I Say Must Be the Truth" scale. Also known as the BS scale. They were totally L-Y-I-N-G!! There is no scale that lets Patsy off the hook, so how could it be documented??

    Why can this scale (where "5" allegedly equals 'elimination') not be found anywhere on official websites?

    Answer: Because it doesn't exist and never has.
  5. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    There definitely is a scale. It can be found here:-


    There is actually a standard for handwriting analysis! However, it's a nine-point scale, not a 5-point scale:-

    1 Identification
    2 Highly probable did write - 90-95%
    3 Probably did write
    4 Indications did write
    5 No conclusion
    6 Indications did not write
    7 Probably did not write
    8 Highly probable did not write
    9 Elimination

    It's not simply enough to say that scale 5 in the above standard is equivalent to scale 3 in a 5-point scale because we don't know what methodologies have been applied in analysing the handwriting. The methodology is IMO most important. Consider weather forecasting. There's me, Farmer Giles and Michael Fish. I say there's an 80% chance it will rain tomorrow. Farmer Giles says 70% chance it will rain and Michael Fish says 20%. Folks might conclude from this that it's probably more likely to rain than not since two out of the three of us reckon high probability. However, our methods of weather forecasting are unknown at this point and when it transpires that I predict the weather from the pain in my knee, Farmer Giles predicts the weather from the behaviour of his cattle whereas Michael Fish is a meteorologist...... folks might change their minds!
  6. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Now I'm going to have a little go at the wiki.

    The wiki is packed with information which is commendable - but the section on handwriting analysis is certainly not without bias.

    Note that the section about Patsy NOT being the RN author gives a brief description of the finding and states the professional affiliations of the experts. Whereas the section about Patsy BEING the author of the RN goes into much more personal detail about the experts (often negative). The latter critiques the methods used and even goes so far as to list previous professional errors of the experts. Now I'm not saying that this is irrelevant - it is. However, it appears that the two camps of expert have not been compared on an equal footing and that the criteria used has been selected with the express purpose of discrediting the Patsy wrote the note camp.

    Clearly the owner of the wiki has a favoured outcome. Quite unprofessional IMO.
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    Jay, I didn't mean there was no scale for handwriting analysis, but that the Ramsey's scale was fictitious. They couldn't use the real scale because it would incriminate Patsy.

    They just said what they thought would get them off the hook. And it did.

  8. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    I absolutely agree with you that there is a scale. However, the officially recognised scale (as acredited by the ASTM) is a nine-point scale which would tend to make any reference to 1-5 rather meaningless.
  9. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    Well, it seems like every so often, the Rs make that claim. But they've never put their money where their mouths are. And it's not like they haven't had chances to do so. Even during the depositions, neither they nor Alex Hunter nor anyone else ever named names. Darnay Hoffman, fool he may be, has it right: all they have to do is pony up and he'll go away. Same here.

    Because it was whipped out of thin air. Like I keep saying, I talked to a handwriting analyst, He's never heard of such a thing.

    They did, and they're the ones who came up with that cockamamie story. And even THEY couldn't eliminate her; what does that tell you?

    Yeah, either it looks like hers or not. Can't be both. Her sisters, even her mother couldn't deny it.

    That's one way of putting it.

    Much as I legitimately like the owner, no BS, I have to agree in good conscience.
  10. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The owner of the Wiki is a very intelligent (and quite entertaining I must say) poster (currently active on the CL forum), but however 'objectively' he presents his site, listing the pros and cons, he is a die-hard IDI. jmo
  11. Little

    Little Member

    If I've learned one thing in the past 10+ years following this case it's to save anything that might "disappear" later. I feel so sure that I read that Patsy's sister said someone was trying to set up Patsy when she (Patsy's sister) saw the ransom note. Of course, I didn't save the source so that is purely my recollection, which just ain't what it used to be LOL.

  12. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    In fairness, it's entirely possible that the owner of the wiki didn't create the page about the handwriting as there are several other contributors that I'm aware of. Nonetheless, the particular bias of this page did strike me when I read it in detail.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    As far as I know, have ever seen, and understand it after 10 years of following this case much closer than the actual detectives who claim to have been working it all along--I use the Karr debacle as my proof of that, Alex Hunter came up with that "1 to 5" scale on LKL one night, talking off the top of his head about the expert opinions on the ransom note. I've never seen any official or unofficial documentation of any examiner using that scale on this ransom note. If anyone else has, they've never said so nor given a source for it OTHER THAN HUNTER. If you read the Epstein deposition conducted by Wood and Hoffman in the Wolf suit, you will see that EVEN LIN WOOD USES HUNTER AS THE SOURCE OF THE "1 TO 5" SCALE, and nowhere does Epstein, and UNDISPUTED HANDWRITING EXPERT, say that scale is valid nor that he or any other expert used it.



    Also, you can find a lot of good reference material on Cherokee's handwriting analysis thread at the top of the JB forum page.

    Here is ACR's page of the NE handwriting samples and analysis, compliments of JAMS, of course:

  14. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    I remember that too. Didn't she say it was a 'criminal mastermind'? Add to the list of something that will be found while looking for something else.
  15. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    It's also entirely misleading to say that Patsy scored 4.5/.50 (and that is apart from the fact that the 5-point scale doesn't seem to exist in any official capacity). It would only be accurate to say the above IF all experts who have been cited agreed with this scoring. Since we don't know what the original source of the 4.5/5.0 is, there is no way of knowing if this was one expert's opinion... or two... or if any expert who rated her more of a match's rating was included or discarded... or if it was an average....or if it was Alex Hunter's word and not that of an expert at all!

    Without more information, it's meaningless.
  16. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    Regardless of the score, Patsy cannot be ruled out. I do not believe there was anyone else who they tested which fit into this category, CANNOT BE RULED OUT.
  17. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    This is significant because it's not just a straightforward case of matching two sets of handwriting because there is every indication that the handwriting on the ransom note was disguised. This attempt to disguise the handwriting may have had the effect of effectively altering certain aspects of the handwriting - enough to cast reasonable doubt for experts.
  18. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    Yet, it looks like the higher the score, the less likely it is for the subject to have written the note.

  19. Little

    Little Member

    Which is why, IMO, they asked Patsy to write the note with both her right hand and her left hand.

  20. heymom

    heymom Member

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