Help Stop This Fraud. Now is the Time to Speak Up.

Discussion in 'Mystery Woman/Lee Hill/Alex Hunter' started by Tricia, Aug 20, 2003.

  1. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    I posted this in the first "Lee Hill" thread toward the end. However I feel this message needs a place of its own.
    I want you to read a quote from a poster long ago. The poster is referring to someone she admired quite a bit it seems. The poster is Mame.

    "It's all about a thing called INFORMATION! Mr.. Thomas and I both believe the road to truth and justice depends on fair minds and a free flow of information. No secrecy. No closed doors. No sacred cows."

    I would implore anyone who knows anything about this miscarriage of justice to step forth. Whether you know where Lee Hill is, whether you know how the Nancy Krebs story REALLY happened, if someone was behind the story, any information at all, please come forward.

    There is a private forum. I don't know if it's still open but I do know the Krebs/White issue was the topic. I do know that even though others have left they still keep their loyalty and will not reveal what was discussed. I would like to address those people.

    If anyone of you has enough of a conscience to step forward and tell how this whole saga started and went down then please do so. Do so for your own good. As your friend Mary stated,
    “Mr.. Thomas and I both believe the road to truth and justice depends on fair minds and a free flow of information. No secrecy. No closed doors. No sacred cows."

    No Secrecy. Secrets only harm people. Especially innocent people.

    Fleet White Sr. did not kill JonBenet Ramsey. Fleet White Jr did not kill JonBenet Ramsey.

    John Ramsey, Fleet White Jr., Sr., and others do not belong to a pedophile sex ring that operates in Boulder or anywhere else.

    I would appeal to your conscience to do the right thing.

    Lee Hill needs help. He is apparently out of control.

    The Whites are an innocent family tainted forever by this miscarriage of justice.

    I know someone out there knows something. Feel free to email

    If you have any information on Lee Hill's whereabouts contact the Boulder Police at

    Remember if it hadn’t been for the low paid, very young, typist who finally spilled the beans the Martha Moxley case would not have been solved.

    One person saw the miscarriage of justice in the Moxley case. That’s all it takes is one person. One person to speak the truth.

    Secrets, especially involving this story, only protect those who have attempted to harm an innocent family. Please don't be a part of that
  2. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Just a little bit more from the "grass roots" reporter on keeping secrets.

    "I despise secrecy. I have sought to fight secrecy in grand juries, government, friendships and life. The egos fueled in this case by knowledge that "they know something" other's don't, has been poison"

    Thanks to RiverRat for finding this golden oldie of a post.

    You can read the whole post on the thread called, "The Krebs File and the short verson of the Mystery Woman."

    Remember if you are one of those who are keeping secrets all you are doing is harming innocent people.

    Feel free to email me at
  3. zapata

    zapata Senior Member

    What I know about the Nancy Krebs Lies

    This post is Zapata's constitutionally protected opinion.
    (edited by Tricia to help Zapata with a couple of spelling errors)

    I have been very sick and have been away from the forums for several months. I did not know that all this had come out. I would love to tell what I know, which is not much about the Nancy Krebs, Digerati, Lee Hill, Mame, Holly, Chris Wheeler and others who were helping Nancy Krebs defame Mr. and Mrs. Fleet White and their little children by way of their names being White.

    I first heard about the Lee Hill-Nancy Krebs story from Mame. When she got wind of the story that Nancy was telling, she went to Lee Hill's office, met Nancy, and offered Nancy a place in her home to stay. She even let Nancy borrow her skirt to wear to the doctor.

    Nancy was at Mame's home the day Mame missed her doggy court appearance, and Krebs called Lee Hill to met Mame at the BPD to bail Mame out.

    Mame told me things that led me to believe that Nancy knew things about Fleet White Jr, and Sr that were not appropriate actions. Mame did not come out and say what she knew, but her inference was so close. She did say that what "Mystery Witness" as she called her, had to say, did not clear the Ramsey's in anyway. Mame also told me via email and via phone that she had seen documents that backed up Nancy Krebs story. She did not tell me what the documents consisted of.

    Mame had Holly to write me to see if I wanted to join their secret forum to gather evidence against Fleet White. I did do research, but I never entered the forum. I did research on Fleet White, but I came up with nothing derogatory against him in his personal life or in his business dealings. I got to the door of the so-called Ceramic forum, or some name like that, saw there were 7 registered members, but never went in. You might say I found my senses, since I believed Fleet White, Jr. to be a hero and still do.

    I was told to look for a Contra Costa Blueprint Co. which supposedly sold for millions of dollars, and was told that a Jeff Christoff owned the company before it was sold. I was lead to believe that this was the company that did the porno film. I did not find a Contra Costra Blueprint Co. that ever existed in the records of Contra Costa. I did find one Jeff Cristoff in CA, but he did not live anywhere near Contra Costa. Just do a search of the white pages at yahoo or at for a Jeff Christoff.

    I do not know how he was involved unless Krebs had something against the man.

    I called Mame when this Krebs woman first appeared to warn her of how a nut had come into my office several years ago saying she was going to file charges against some lady in Chicago, and wanted the Democrats to know that the woman had had her b--t f----d. She had seen my husbands name on the outside of our office and claimed he was her brother-in-law, and that he was in a wheel chair, and that he was the one that had committed the vile act against her. My husband is neither her brother-in-law, nor is he in a wheel chair. She also told me she was driving down Butter Field 8 when the evildoers hypnotized her and caused her to have a wreck. She also claimed to be a psychiatrist, much like Krebs friend in CA, who is not a psychiatrist, nor is she a psychologist. She is a Counselor. What training she has is unknown. I have forgotten her name, but if someone would remind me of her name I will gladly do research on her. I did not know it at the time, but when I called Mame to warn her that Krebs maybe a nut case, Krebs answered the phone and told me that Mame was in the shower and would call me back. I thought I was talking to one of Mame's daughters. Mame did not tell me that she had Krebs at her home, and that I had just talked to her. I realized I had spoken to Krebs when I heard the interview tapes that Mame did with Krebs on the Internet. I recognized Krebs voice. So innocent, so sweet. Yea! Not!

    If you ask me, Mame was the ringleader of “Lets get Fleet White and family". I could not see how they could turn on such a brave man so quickly. After I blew up at Holly and exposed their secret forum I was locked out of Justice Watch immediately. I mean like in two seconds. I was never allowed in again. No sweat, I didn't need to be there in a place run by the like of Chris Wheeler.

    It is my deepest feelings that Fleet White should sue Mame and Chris Wheeler for slander. Chris was the owner of Justice Watch and she allowed all this slander of Mr. White and his family to be posted in an open forum for the world to see.

    Please someone; give Tricia the links to where they are still defaming the Whites so I may read there. I did not know that this was still going on. Tricia can email them to me if I can't make it back to this forum from time to time. I will try my best to be here until I am too weak to carry on. I apologize to the Whites for even considering anything Nancy Krebs, Chris Wheeler, Mame, Holly and others had to say. May God forgive me too. We all know Patsy killed JonBenet, but this was another diversionary tactic to throw us off the true murderers trail. I almost feel for it, but one thing I have never doubted is that Patsy killed JonBenet because she was angry at John for not ever being there for her through her bout of cancer, and even left and spent Christmas at the airport with all Patsy had to do to get ready for Charlevoix and the Big Disney Boat trip, plus the local Little Miss Hawaii pageant JonBenet was to be in the 6th of January.

    We also know that John was going to be fired from Access Graphics in May of 97. Can you imagine how embarrassing the Ramseys would have been when their friends found out that the high-powered Ramseys were out of a job. No man takes off a year when he is an employee of a company, even though he had the title of CEO, he had no stock in the company, and no pull. Just look at the only two GE fired when they purchased Access Graphics. GE, Access Graphics, and the company John had the contract with to resale the computer equipment were all owned by the parent company of Lockheed, who owned Access Graphics. There is no way that John would be coming back to Access Graphics after taking a year off. He was not that important to Lockheed, and it is with all my heart that I believe the reason Lockheed sold Access to GE is to find a graceful way of getting rid of John Ramsey. John Ramsey was not an honest employee, nor was he ever a success in business. It is my firm believe that John Ramsey is and was a very lazy person.

    I cannot always make it to the boards due to my health problem, so please get Tricia to email me with any info you want me to try and check out. I will be slow, but I promise I will do all I can to help clear the White's good name.

    I was almost trapped, but I did not cross the line.

    I may think of other things since this all hit me so fast tonight, and will bring them here to post or send them to Tricia to post for me.

    If I do not live long enough to help clear Fleet's family name, please consider this my deathbed statement. I swear every word I have written is true as I know it.

    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2003
  4. zapata

    zapata Senior Member

    Excuse my mis-spellings

    Please excuse my mis-spellings of fill or fell for feel, or vice versa, and though for throw, and other words I meant to write for the correct words.

  5. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    You know Zapata it is so nice to see someone who intially believed the Krebs story just come out and say "okay--I was wrong." I really appreciate the candor, which is rare in this tawdry story. There's no shame in wanting to believe a person who claims to be victimized. Krebs has conned some very bright people with her I'm-40-but-talk-like-a-six-year-old-to-get-more-sympathy routine.

    I hope you feel better and sure hope this isn't a "deathbed confession."
  6. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Zapata I know I speak for everyone when I say you are in our thoughts and prayers. Please take care.

    Zapata I remember hearing something about John Ramsey and the possibility of his upcoming firing. After reading your post it's easy to come to that conclusion. I was wondering is there any other research or facts to back this up? Although I have to admit what you wrote is very compelling concerning his employment.

    Zapata since you were there from the beginning I would love to know your opinion on some questions.


    Why did they do this to Fleet White? Who was behind it? How did Mame, Singular and Hill all come together? Do you really think Nancy "saw" Hill on T.V and decided he was the man?

    Zapata once again we all appreciate you taking the time to post. Please take care and let us know if there is anything we can do.

  7. AK

    AK Member

    Wow, now that's something

    Zapata, you have always been a keen researcher and thinker.

    Now I see you're also a hero.

    Bless you!
  8. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

    How Far?

    Does anyone else realize how far the krebscam could have gone had Zapata NOT come forward with The Ugly Truth that laid behind our sweet forum in The Secret Forum?!

    The Ceramic Forum better known as the Cracked Pots forum.

    Seven of them. Chris, Digeratti/Denver, maME, Holly, Morgan, Darby and who????? Brady or Janphi?

    Betty, don't you Ever underestimate your importance in preventing this scam of setting up an innocent man to take someone else's life sentence from taking place.

  9. zapata

    zapata Senior Member

    Let me try

    Let me try to put together the reason I believe John Ramsey was destined to be fired in May of 97.

    In the Ramsey's disgusting book, I believe in the chapter entitled, "Back To Work", or Same Train, Same Track chapters, John writes that he and Patsy had talked about his taking a year off beginning in May 97.

    Prior to reading their book I found in the October 1996 issue of the Denver Business Journal an article stating that Microsystems South, which maybe the wrong name of the company. I would have to go back and read the Rammer's disgusting book to make sure of the name. The Journal stated that Microsystems were opening up a huge plant near Denver soon. They were going to employ 3500 people verses the 450-650 people Access Graphics employed.

    John had talked about how much the contract with Microsystems meant to Access Graphics in their disgusting book. Access' fate was doomed had they not gotten the contract with Microsystems. They it struck me since Microsystems was based in CA, (I did know the name of the town, but just can't remember it now) and with them building a plant in Denver why would they need Access Graphics as a resaler. Remember John wrote that when GE purchased Access Graphics that they wanted to take the company in a different direction. He then goes on to complain that he and his father in law were the only two people that GE did not keep, and complained about the small severence package that both received.

    In order to get the contract with Microsystems, Access had to borrow something like 15-million dollars from Lockheed, putting up the remaining 75% of Accesses stock as collateral. John writes in the
    Back to Work" chapter that he did not own any stock in Access nor did he own any stock in Lockheed. Didn't you ever wonder why a millionaire had to get an approval for an advance of 118,000 on his Visa card in order to make an appearance of trying to raise the ransom amount? Any millionaire should have at least $118,000 laying in a CD or a checking account. Evidently John did not.

    I contend that John was not an employee that was important enough to a company like Lockheed to be allowed to take a years vacation. I contend that John knew as early as October that by May 97 he would be unemployed. I contend that if John knew, Patsy knew too. I feel that information was another weight bearing on Patsy's mind. John was determined to keep up the big-shot appearance by flying his own plan to Michigan, with the help of his co-pilot, he was determined to take the Big Red Disney Boat trip to show the world that they had money, when I believe that they were spending far more than he made.

    The Ramsey's had assets, but they were not liquid. I posted a long time ago the retirement plan that John had put the $118,000 bonus in for 95. Note that nothing is ever mentioned about any previous bonuses John might have received.

    John and Access Graphics defaulted on the 15-million dollar note they had with Lockheed, and that is the only way that Lockheed came to own 100% of Access Graphics. Access had previously borrowed money from Lockheed to stay afloat, they put up 25% of the stock of Access at that time. They must have also defaulted on that note to Lockheed, Lockheed then foreclosed, thus becoming 25% owners of Access.

    Let's look at the important business John claimed to have in Atlanta 20-30- minutes after he carried his dead daughter up the stairs. Was he trying to get the $118,000 back into his Visa account. Remember when you get cash advances on your credit card the interest rate starts immediately. Interest rates on cash advances are very high. Not that John was worried about money, but I think he desperately wanted to get that money back to Westmoreland. I also have considered that he wanted to talk to Don Paugh about his stand-by flight back to GA the day before. Paugh had always bailed John out when John found himself in financial trouble. I simply can't imagine what was so important in Atlanta that you would leave the body of your precious child behind.

    When I posted John's deferred retirement plan, it read that in order to draw the money out early that there had to be a vote by the Lockheed board of directors. I don't think Patsy counted on that. I believe she thought that due to an emergency situation they would be able to draw the $118,000 out of the deferred retirement plan with no questions asked.

    I also find it strange that even though Patsy had promised to leave a check for a loan to Linda Pugh, she never wrote the check. Don't you think if you were leaving so early in the morning that you would take care of things like that the night before.

    Let's look at John's work history according to his own words in their disgusting book, plus the words of Steve Thomas in his wonderful, fact-based book. John writes that he first went to work for AT&T. After the first year he claims that they came to a mutual agreement that he was not managerial material. John flopped out of that job.

    Then Steve discovers that John-Boy is really not an honest employee. John tried to expense off his business account repairs on his porché, and airplane expenses. John's company did not like the idea of paying for those expenses, so we don't know if he was fired from that company or not, just that he tried to make off with $5,000. (Remember he had that porché when he and Patsy met.)

    Then John's little basement company was failing until Patsy called daddy Paugh to come to the rescue. John Ramsey was given credit for Don Paugh's hard work. Paugh has been so quiet, boy do I wish he would speak up. The things we could learn about John Ramsey. Why do I get the idea that Don and John are on the outs?

    According to John, Don Paugh sent John to Las Vegas to that convention where he met the owner of Cad. According to John, Don Paugh suggested that John and Patsy go to Boulder and met with the owner of the company that was to become Access Graphics. We also have to remember that John had only been with Access Graphics for 5 years. One half that time Access was on the verge of going under. 5-years does not make for a successful retirement.

    By the way, Microsystems was located in Mountain View, CA. I finally demembered. The d is no mistake in spelling.

    Geesh, I have gotten off the subject so many times, and I am sure that there are questions I meant to try to answer as to why I came to believe John Ramsey was going to be unemployed by May 97, but when and if I remember them I will post them here.

    Mr. is wanting me to go with him to get him a puter for his office since one of his exploded over the week-end. If I am not too tired when I come back I will try to reread all of your questions and get back on the subject of Mame and Nancy Krebs.

    Thanks for being here for me all you guys. Your kindness is so heart warming. I do appreciate each and everyone of you.

  10. zapata

    zapata Senior Member

    I do recall

    I do recall that the secret Ceremic forum was located on an Easy Board or EZ Board. Does anyone remember where those boards were located?

    They were free boards if I am not mistaken.

    I believe Acandyrose and several others opened up forums there as a joke, and they posted the link to those forums. They may have opened those forums prior to the Krebs bunch opening up the secret "lets get Fleet" forum.

    To answer one question on how I think the "Lets get Fleet" crap started, I think that Mame was just so gung ho to be the, "be all and know all" of the case that when she heard about Krebs that she just made it her business to meet with Hill and Krebs.

    She was fed a bunch of bull, she ate it all up, became a fool and invited her so called Mystery Witness to move in with her.

    She told me via phone at the time that her husband did not say a word about her bringing Nancy Krebs into their home. I am wondering if that is true now. Didn't she and her husband divorce?

    I was going to post something else Mame told me about her husbands health, but decided it was too cruel, and too personal. His health is just fine as far as I know now, but for a time they thought he might have a serious health problem. I pray that he is fine. I would not wish a serious illness on my worst enemy, nor would I wish it on any of their loved ones.

    As far as the others falling for Nancy Krebs delusions, I believe that it is the same as someone yelling FIRE in a crowded theatre. They just went bazooka. I feel they did not Stop, Look or Listen, nor did they try to weigh the truth verses the lies, and what truly makes sense.

    Why did Nancy Krebs wait 3 years to come forward with her tales of woe? I think Nancy just decided she needed a little excitement, so she decided to come to CO and stir up chit. I bet the delussional Nancy got a big kick out of being the center of attention, wearing Mame's clothes, yuk, having a venereal (sp)disease. Did we ever hear how she got the disease?

    It is my belief that Chris Wheeler ran the secret forum. I received an email from Chris giving me the link to the secret forum, telling me how to enter the forum, and telling me to make sure I wanted to join before I entered, that I was to keep my mouth shut about the secret board.

    That summer someone kept taking my computer out. I lost everything I had, including my email 3 or 4 times. I had to run my factory re-install disc over and over. I was totally fed up with whoever got their jollys by taking my computer out.

    I don't know that it was the "Our Gang Secret Forum" bunch that kept taking my computer down, but felt it was done to destroy all the emails I had received to prove that their was a secret forum.

    I do remember that when Mame first told me of the so called danger Nancy Krebs was in I was so stupid I even invited Mame to send her to my house in TX. How stupid can anyone get? I don't think I knew of the sexually transmitted disease at that time. I hope I didn't.

  11. zapata

    zapata Senior Member

    We have a confirmation!

    I spoke with Rita Johnson who tells me she met the Ramseys at Home Depot in 2001 if I am not mistaken about the year.

    She told me that Jane Stobie and other people that worked with John told her that John was suppose to be leaving Access Graphics in May of 97. I had asked her if she knew John was going to be leaving Access in May 97, and her reply was Yes! I asked her how she knew, and she told me that she had interviewed over 200 people for her book she has written or is writing. That is when she told me that Jane Stobie and other people that had worked with John told her that Access was getting rid of John in May 97.

    One thing that bothers me is I don't know if Jane Stobie was still working at Access Graphics in 97. If anyone knows if she was still at the company at that time period will you post the info so I will know if my suspicions were true or not.

  12. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    I'd take anything Jane Stobie says with a huge grain of salt.
  13. Ginja

    Ginja Member

    Coming together

    Zapata, it's all coming together from what I 'vaguely' remember from way back then.

    John couldn't hack it in the employment world. As you noted, he was either fired or quit and just couldn't cut it. He was a womanizer and wound up being divorced by Lucinda.

    But I remember the 'rumors' back then of the Ramseys being in financial difficulty. People poo-pooed it, coming out with statements of how much the Rams were worth and that they owned boats, planes, expensive cars, lived in "mansions" and traveled alot.

    Someone posted an article on pageants at Purg but because of copyright laws it was taken down yesterday (it went up yesterday, too). It talked about how the pageant dresses are so expensive, so a lot of pageant mothers will buy contestants' dresses second hand to save costs. The article noted that in November, 96, Patsy was at a pageant and asking around about buying JonBenet a second hand pageant dress. She bought one. It was the one JonBenet was buried in!!!

    I wouldn't go so far as to suggest JonBenet was murdered for money....but I think (and if the rumors about John losing his job in a few months was known) there's a pretty good argument to be made that Patsy's world -- as she knew it -- was tumbling down around her. She liked the good life -- being at the top of the social ladder was very important to her. I'm sure they had discussions that they had to start curbing expenses. Buying a second hand dress for JonBenet blew my mind -- imagine how Patsy felt!!!!!

    There are theorists who believe that John Ramsey was behind bringing Krebs in. But I don't believe that's possible. He hasn't had a job since the the murder and I bet with some digging, we'll find he didn't have much to begin with. He wound up selling his big luxury items and as we've seen, he didn't have any stock with Access...which is amazing seeing as how it was his company and he was CEO.

    I also don't think he's making much at all with these libel suits.

    Besides, what little money he probably has, I doubt he'd give it to Krebs or any of her cohorts to come to Boulder and make outrageous accusations against him.

    As far as Mame's concerned, I don't think there was any payoff for her...I think her ego got in the way and she thought she'd get "paid off" when she was heralded for breaking the case, writing a book, and winning a Pulitzer. It's a laughable statement, but I think Mame believed it!

    When did Mame first start veering away from Fleet White? By that I mean, when did her animosity against him first show its ugly head? Krebs was the vehicle that Mame rode ... but why did she want to jump onto that bandwagon in the first place?

    I vaguely remember her "reporting" posts at JW...remember how she used to go to the court house and then "report" about it? I remember she went to the court house one time where Fleet was present and she made somewhat derogatory remarks about him -- trying to paint him as a mean person with a temper who pushed his weight around. That was long before Krebs was on the scene. When did she first turn against White? and why?

    Steve Singular teamed up with another Boulderite and tried to get an investigation going into pornography (again, in high places in Boulder). There was an investigation, but no charges were brought. There was a local guy who worked at the court house or in city hall who got caught with some porn on his pc....he was sanctioned and had to go to therapy, I think, but he didn't lose his job.

    So Singular already had one foot in Boulder's door with the "porn/sex ring" theories, so I'm sure he's going to be found getting involved very early in this Krebs scandal. As we've seen, he was included in that meeting with Hunter, Hill and Hartman. He had no business being there. And since that was the very first meetig to bring Krebs out and to the attention of Boulder LE, he had to have some involvement prior to that meeting.

    Is it possible he "found" Krebs in another attempt to open yet another sex scandal case in Boulder? Perhaps Krebs never saw Hill on TV...perhaps Singular simply told her that Hill was the guy to call to get the ball rolling.

    Singular was also involved with the forums beginning with his first sex investigation in Boulder. Were the posters who got involved with Krebs the same posters that pushed Singular's theory of sex in Boulder the first time? He was on the Boyle's show and whatnot back then. There was another angle, I can't remember. Wasn't he trying to link Ramsey to the first scandal?

    Anyway, fwiw, I never got any invitations to any of these secret forums. :-(
  14. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    I agree with BobC...

    I don't know much about John Ramsey's work history, but I've been told that his boss at Lockheed Martin, Gary Mann, thought he was a "valuable employee" and wanted to keep him with the company. The fact that he left LM could have been because there was nothing for him to do in the Atlanta area or that JR lost his "rabbi" when Mann took over another division of the company.
  15. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Yeah Shadow, I hate to criticize anybody who's better in business than I'd ever be! I'm just a COMMON ARTIST!

    However, the hi-tech business field is so damn squirrely these days I'd believe anything.
  16. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    A couple of posters

    at another forum are saying a new hat there, maddie, is mame. After reading maddie's posts, I will say without hesitation that they are right. Mame is stupid to think she can hide behind a different hat. Can't hide that condescending attitude nor that hatred toward anything FFJ, can you, mame. You should have lost the !!!!!, too, mame.
  17. 1000 Sparks

    1000 Sparks Active Member

    what is wrong with you women

    bringing up posts from last September.

    You probably got mame crying now.
  18. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    She's too mean

    to cry.
  19. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef



    After year,

    after year, after year.


    After Scam,

    after Scam, after Scam.
  20. RiverRat

    RiverRat FFJ Sr. Member Extraordinaire (Pictured at Lef

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