How were the ligature cords cut and the paintbrush handle broken?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. Elle

    Elle Member

    I think a random choice. KK. Once the cover-up started, they couldn't stop and the more confusion they could add to scene, all the better for them!

    It worked, didn't it, KK? They were never arrested!

    I wonder if there was a metal door leading to the garage in the Ramsey basement. No dents would show if this was how the brush was broken, KK.. I'm sure the house was renovated before the Ramseys moved in. Our house is now 37 years old, and I was quite amazed to see the front door was a steel door with another door in front with a screen. So Patsy may have changed the entrance door to the garage or had a steel door at the front (?). I'm sure we have all seen most of the TV programs showing the inside of the Ramsey home, but you wouldn't know at a glance if a door was wooden or steel, not unless the host of one of the TV shows mentions it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2012
  2. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you, cynic! See, your last quote I totally didn't remember. As we've recently seen the crumbling clay feet of Dr. Spitz (disastrously, if successfully, testifying like a camp caricature of himself in the Anthony trial), I'm going to put a thought out there that I have been alluding to:

    If the paintbrush had been used on the child PRIOR to the night she was murdered, maybe THAT'S why it was incorporated into the murder weapon. The killer knew it was already linked to prior sexual abuse and feared that would be discovered at autopsy, so used it in a way to blame the "intruder."

    I've often wondered if the "tip" of the brush was spirited away because it had blood/tissue/DNA on it from the sexual abuse.

    It's hard to imagine what actually happened to this poor child, I admit, as this all seems so contrived on so many levels. But we know from chronic vaginal injuries the child was being sexually abused prior to that night, and probably for some time, if the injuries to the hymen are any indication.

    I use the term sexually abused because I personally think whatever the motivation was--i.e. some sick obsession with cleanliness (douching or some form of violent cleansing) or actual sexual molestation, the assault on the child's reproductive system was by definition "abuse" and that it was enacted on the sexual organs makes it sexual abuse, IMO.

    So with the quote in mind that other medical opinions presented were that the birefringent material had been in the vagina for some amount of time prior to the night of the murder, that would explain A LOT.

    It would explain the repeated calls to the pediatrician on Dec. 17th after hours. It would explain an angry attack on JonBenet on Dec. 25th/26th. It would explain why someone felt the need to use a paintbrush as part of a strangulation device when it wasn't needed.

    I may be making too much out of this. Maybe it's like you say, Elle, just a random choice. But I have been thinking about that paint tray and where it was found by LE--outside the cellar door. I've been looking at crime scene photos of it, and it seems so out of place. I know there were paintings near it, if I've read the '98 LE interview with Patsy right--which is hard to say because we don't have all the photos with numbers as they go through them.

    I also know the maid is said by Patsy--REPEATEDLY--to have put the paint tray in the basement. Which, now that I think of it, is a huge red flag: did Patsy move that tray herself the night of the murder? Her clothing fibers from what she wore to the White's party were found in it. The same fibers that were found by LE tied into the knots of the ligature.

    Poor cynic, I'm abusing you badly: do you remember what Thomas wrote about LHPugh putting the paint tray in the basement? If you don't have time, I'll hunt for it. You're a doll, by the way, for going to so much trouble here. :heart:

    I'm going to ponder this--though it's like being stabbed in the gut repeatedly to think of the suffering of JonBenet.
     
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Lou Smit also shared that little bit of Ramsey spin about the "cord fibers in the bed" with dear old Judge "Opinion" Carnes. Unless I'm mis-remembering, Carnes cited that in her "opinion"--wow, it just occurred to me that she and Lacy were actually soul mates, weren't they, abusing their exaggerated legal powers to fudge a legal case without actually having to take it to trial.

    Dayum...that just made me want to scream.... :burnedup:
     
  4. Elle

    Elle Member


    Thank you again Cynic for this wonderful list. You are well organized. BJ's site ACandyRose is incredible. The amount of work BJ has done is amazing. I used her site all the time when researching way back.

    I'm trying to find a good techie to pay me a visit and check this pc out, because the links won't open for me.
     
  5. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    KK, I had never before thought about the possibility of that particular paintbrush having been used in a prior assault. That would certainly explain why it was used in the staging. It really wasn't a necessary part of the garrote- it could have strangled her without use of a "handle".
    As to whether it had been in her vagina up to a week before her death- I would imagine there might be some "healing" or tissue growth around wood splinters if they were there that long- the same way your skin will close over a splinter in your finger or hand. This happens over days, and not hours, and it doesn't happen after death. I would think the two medical examiners present (Mayer and a female medical examiner) would have been able to tell if this occurred.
     
  6. cynic

    cynic Member

    :whipit: :whipit: :whipit:
    I neglected to mention this in my previous post:

    Finally, the detectives turned to the microscopic splinter of cellulose found in JonBenét’s vagina, which looked like wood. The broken paintbrush that had been tied to the stick was splintered into shards.
    Logic suggested that a splinter of wood might have stuck to the perpetrator’s finger before he or she penetrated JonBenét vaginally.
    It could also have broken off the end of the paintbrush if the stick, rather than a finger, was used to penetrate her.

    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, 559


    Here is the info with respect to the paint tray:

    Before leaving questions about the basement, we locked her into saying that the housekeeper had moved the painting and art supplies down there before the holidays. That made me think how odd it would be for a total stranger, presumably working in the dark, to know where to find the paintbrush that became part of the garrote.
    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 189

    Patsy started to take a painting class, and JonBenét drew a lot with crayons and markers. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenét painted on a card table in the butler’s kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement when she was having some kind of party. That’s what she’d say about everything, any kind of clutter: “Just take it down to the basement. I don’t want to see it.†On the day of the Ramseys’ Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs.
    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 237

    PR: I took painting class this fall, and she would paint with me. Again, we kind of turned our lower kitchen into a little are kind of studio, and she would paint.
    TT: OK. For the tape, by the lower kitchen, is that where the sink is right outside by the bathroom there?
    PR: That black and white tile from our den.
    TT: Back towards the back?
    PR: Low, way low. Behind the kitchen and the den.
    TT: The bar (inaudible).
    PR: There’s a kitchen there.
    TT: So, you took painting classes in the fall.
    PR: Right.
    TT: What kind of classes?
    PR: Down at CUTT: Water color or oil, or…
    PR: I think you could do either one, acrylic or oils.
    TT: OK. Which did you do?
    PR: I started out with oil, but then I changed to acrylic because it got on my car when I (inaudible). It smelled real bad, so I switched.
    TT: Do you normally keep the painting supplies in that (inaudible) area where the checkered board stuff is?
    PR: Yeah, we had it there for a long time, and then around the holidays, I moved all that to the basement.
    TT: OK.
    PR: Ah, cause we put coat racks and things in there for parties.
    TT: OK. What part of the basement do you recall moving the painting supplies to?
    PR: I don’t remember. I think Linda took all that own there. I think it was kind of, I don’t remember. (Inaudible) was storing everything, I don’t remember where she put it.
    TT: Is that a (inaudible), how much stuff are you talking about?
    PR: Well, I had a bunch of big canvasses; had a Santa by the lawn, and a big easel, a big tall easel; and then like a white caddy kind of thing, like a plastic thing that I had a bunch of paint in. It would have been a lot of stuff to flip over.
    TT: So some place in the basement is where (inaudible) all that?
    PR: Yeah.
    1997 Interview

    TRIP DEMUTH: I want to ask a question before we go off the butler area, as long as you are looking at 69 there.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TRIP DEMUTH: You used to have your painting materials in the butler kitchen; right?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Where were they?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right here. Right in this area.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Just in the central area or was it off to the side?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this wasn't a real big space. So it had the easel kind of set up right there and the sink was there to wash, and the (inaudible) area.
    TRIP DEMUTH: You had a paint tree also, a tray, or I don't know what you call --
    PATSY RAMSEY: It was like a little utility carrier with paint in it and stuff.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Do you remember when you moved those items?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right. Linda did. I asked her to take them to the bedroom.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. And do you remember when she did that?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she did it prior to the party on the 23rd because we wanted to hang coats here. I don't know exactly the day she did it, but –
    TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know where she moved them to?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Down here in the basement, I think, you know, kind of like sort of in this area.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
    TOM HANEY: Well, there is a -- I think maybe a quick little look at the tray with some brushes in it in a minute. In that tray of brushes what would you have had in there?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Paint and brushes and probably -- I don't know. I don't know exactly what was in there. Supplies, you know, paint supplies.
    TOM HANEY: What kind of painting were you doing? What kind of paint would you have had in there?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, oil or acrylic. I signed up for a class where you could use both, and I started out using oil and it got over my car, so I switched to acrylic, but there was a mishmash in there.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. Out of the brushes you would have had in there, would you have had any that were broken or damaged or would you –
    PATSY RAMSEY: No, they were all pretty new.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. So any broken or damaged ones?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Throw it away.
    TOM HANEY: So –
    TRIP DEMUTH: Take a minute, Patsy, and think about the paint tree. Were there any broken paint brushes that you recall?
    PATSY RAMSEY: No, not that I recall. They were all pretty new when -- they had a list of things to buy for the class.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
    TOM HANEY: Did you follow their advice? Sometimes, you know, you get the list from school and you think do you need all of this.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, pretty close, yeah.
    TOM HANEY: What is available. Do you recall where you would have made the purchase before this?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Art Hardware in Boulder.

    [SNIP]

    TOM HANEY: Photograph, I think is 178, that is that tray of paint brushes that we talked about earlier.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    TOM HANEY: Is that where it is located?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Well, like I said, Linda took all of the paint stuff out of the butler kitchen there when she took it to the basement. And to tell you the truth, I never really paid too much attention where she put it.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. I can't tell.
    TRIP DEMUTH: Here is the wine cellar.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, okay. It could have been. I don't know.
    TOM HANEY: Do you recognize what that is behind it there?
    PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. That is a painting I did.
    TOM HANEY: Okay. Pretty much the painting supplies, the materials were together.
    PATSY RAMSEY: Right, all together.
    1998 Interview


    Q. And you have told investigators before that, as the holiday season began, that the painting equipment which is normally kept in the butler's pantry was transferred to the basement by Ms. Hoffman Pugh. Do you remember that?
    MR. WOOD: Why don't you give her the statement so she can look at that. You now are directly asking her to reaffirm something she's already apparently said.
    MR. LEVIN: I didn't think it was a matter of discussion. Let me ask a second question.
    MR. WOOD: I don't know whether it is or not, Bruce, but I mean, it is not, apparently by the nature of your question, something new. You already have gotten the information from a question, so --
    Q. (By Mr. Levin) Let me just, let me just ask another question. We will just drop that one.
    At the time of JonBenet's death, your painting supplies were found in the basement. Did you ever paint in the basement?
    A. No.
    Q. When you were helping JonBenet get ready for bed, were you still wearing the red coat -- excuse me, the red, black, and gray coat?
    MR. WOOD: Well, from what I saw, it looked like the red and black jacket.
    THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
    MR. WOOD: The one we have been discussing that Mr. Kane had a picture of.
    THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
    MR. WOOD: Did you get your answer?
    MR. LEVIN: Yes, I did.
    Q. (By Mr. Levin) I believe you said you don't remember.
    Was that the outer coat that you were wearing Christmas, or did you have a heavier coat that you wore on top of that?
    MR. WOOD: For outdoors?
    MR. LEVIN: For outdoors.
    THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I think, I think that was the only one I wore. Because we were in the car and out, but I don't remember exactly.
    MR. MORRISSEY: Mrs. Ramsey, I am sorry to interrupt you. Before you get going too far, when was the last time you remember using the paint set?
    THE WITNESS: Oh, god. Oh, you know, probably that fall sometime, I --
    MR. WOOD: Do you remember that, Patsy? Be sure of your answer.
    THE WITNESS: No, I don't remember the last time I used it.
    Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) Right. I am not asking for a date.
    A. Yeah.
    Q. A season.
    A. Yeah.
    Q. And you indicate the fall? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
    A. Well, the last time I used it was in conjunction with this art class that I signed up to, and I can't remember when that was exactly from CU. And all of my stuff was there in the butler's pantry. But then the holidays came, we needed that space, and we moved all of the junk to the basement.
    Q. Once it was moved to the basement, you never hauled it up and painted or anything? You never used it again?
    A. No.

    [SNIP]

    Q. (By Mr. Levin) Now, Mrs. Ramsey, you -- are you aware, I should say, that your paint kit was found very close to the wine cellar door?
    A. I have heard that.
    Q. Did you recall at any time that you were shown photographs in that regard?
    A. No.
    Q. We have found, and I want you to help us, maybe you can offer an explanation for this. We have found fibers in the paint tray that appear to come off of the coat in the photograph we showed you.
    A. In the paint tray?
    Q. Yes.
    A. What's a paint --
    MR. WOOD: Hold on. Let him ask you his question and then answer his question. What is your question?
    MR. LEVIN: I did.
    MR. WOOD: You got your answer?
    MR. LEVIN: Well, I got, she said what's a paint tray.
    MR. WOOD: No, she didn't. She was following your question, in the paint tray because you said we have found, and I want you to help us, maybe you can offer an explanation for this. We have found fibers in the paint tray that appear to come off of the coat in the photograph we showed you.
    What is the question?
    Q. (By Mr. Levin) Can you explain for us how the fibers from the coat got in the paint tray?
    MR. WOOD: Are you stipulating as a fact that the fibers that you say are in the paint tray, in fact, came from that coat that we earlier discussed, or is it simply a matter that you say they may have? Because I am not going to let her answer argumentative, hypothetical opinions. I will let her answer if you are going to state it as a matter of fact that that fiber came from that jacket.
    MR. LEVIN: I can state to you, Mr. Wood, that, given the current state of the scientific examination of fibers, that, based on the state of the art technology, that I believe, based on testing, that fibers from your client's coat are in the paint tray.
    MR. WOOD: Are you stating as a fact that they are from the coat or is it consistent with? What is the test result terminology? Is it conclusive? I mean, I think she is entitled to know that when you ask her to explain something.
    MR. KANE: It is identical in all scientific respects.
    MR. WOOD: What does that mean? Are you telling me it is conclusive?
    MR. KANE: It is identical.
    MR. WOOD: Are you saying it is a conclusive match?
    MR. KANE: You can draw your own conclusions.
    MR. WOOD: I am not going to draw my own conclusions.
    MR. KANE: I am saying it is identical.
    2000 Interview
     
  7. cynic

    cynic Member

    If true it would point stongly to the Ramseys because an intruder-pedophile is not going to be using a paintbrush he finds in a home to get hia "work" done. I'm pretty sure it would be a far more intimate experience that he would be after.
     
  8. cynic

    cynic Member

    It makes perfect sense that there would be some "healing" over that length of time.
     
  9. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member



    Good gosh, this makes me mad with frustration! Fibers from Patsy's red jacket, the one she wore Christmas night, were found in the paint tray in the basement near the wine cellar door, and Patsy is acting stupid and saying things like, "What's a paint tray?" Arrrggggh! :banghead:

    Then Lin Wood interrupts and lies and says Patsy DIDN'T say "what is a paint tray," as he tries to derail Mike Kane's questioning with his relentless badgering. What part of "IT IS IDENTICAL" does Lin Wood not understand?!! Obviously, the part that incriminates his client, PATSY RAMSEY!!!
     
  10. cynic

    cynic Member

    It is brutal isn't it?
    Old Woody was on top of his game.
     
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    cynic,

    Note how Patsy tries to distance herself away from her own painting supplies, throwing suspicion immediately on to Linda, her housekeeper, who was interviewed by the police, while she, Patsy Ramsey, wasn't! Something far wrong with this scene(?).

     
  12. heymom

    heymom Member

    A quick question

    This has probably been gone over many times in the past, but if so, I don't remember....LOL aging you know!

    That paint brush was OLD, very well used, it looks as though it needed throwing away. Were the broken ends fresh or were they old breaks, from a previous time? I can see Patsy breaking it and then not throwing it away. She obviously didn't care for her brushes or all the paint wouldn't be off of it like that.

    I'm just thinking that whoever did the strangling just really grabbed the first thing he had at hand, and that stick of the brush made it look as if the strangler had some kind of tool, instead of just a cord. The brush end was probably already long gone, maybe it had been left with paint on it and dried up, so it was thrown away while the rest of the brush wasn't.

    I just know that the brush was quite old, and were the ends already broken before that night?
     
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I haven't gotten to anything Kolar said about this other than what we already know.

    But I believe there are some indications at least part of the brush was broken that night: the splinters by the paint tray on the carpet; a dry green paint particle which ended up on JB's chin, along with a carpet fiber, could have come from breaking the brush that night since JB was strangled by the paint tray. That green particle was matched to paint in the paint tray, so it seems to indicate it came from the well-used paintbrush, which had various paints dried on it, from the picture we have.

    Dried paint doesn't just jump off of things on its own, I'm thinking. Since JB's urine was on the carpet there, she was strangled from behind, and the ligature was tied on her from behind--her hair at the back of her scalp was tied into the knot on her neck, I find it very likely at least one portion of the paintbrush was broken by that tray that night.

    I've seen it suggested the end tip of the brush was already broken off before that night, but I don't think there is any way of proving that unless you have credible evidence of where it went.

    As for me, with the photos we have which we worked with on this thread, I can only say the breaks look fresh to me.

    Since Patsy was hardly able to identify her own house, to hear her tell it, much less her own paintbrush, she did little to clear anything up on this issue--as usual.
     
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    To put a fine point on this thread, as we did speculate quite a bit in our amateur experimentation:

    From Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet Ramsey?; by A. James Kolar:

    Page 48-49:

    Pages 54-55, on the autopsy:

    Pages 57-58, continuing with the autopsy:


    Pages 66-67, finally we hear what Van Tassel thought:

    These are the most important details of the paintbrush and cord that I can find. Maybe someone else remembers more?
     
  15. Karen

    Karen Member

    Thank you koldkase! Does he say anywhere what might have been used to cut the nylon cord? Other than something very sharp.
     
  16. cynic

    cynic Member

    He doesn't say anything else about it, unfortunately.
    I actually don't think that it was something particularly sharp that did it, at least according to my experiments.
    Especially look at this crime scene photo http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=189196&postcount=19
    and compare it to what I did in the first post of the following thread
    http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10093
     
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