I have questions....

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, May 19, 2012.

  1. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Koldkase, is it a given that in this demo the grate outside is already open? Because that's the way he/she/it came in or is it supposed to be closed and the person's head would open it on the way out? That person in the photo is sort of wide to fit through the window isn't he?
  2. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I don't see how one could come in that window the way John said he did. Must've been a contortionist.

    What is more intriguing to me is: Why would someone want to enter the house through that obstacle course when friends had keys or when it would have been much easier to break a window somewhere else?

    Was he hiding something?
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Good question, Zoomama. I honestly can't remember watching this particular video, so I don't know which program it was on. For some reason, I am having trouble saying that is Lou Smit. The hair is dark and fuller than Smit's, as well as this guy seems a bit stockier?

    Maybe Why Nut has it on his/her website. I'll see if I can find out.
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Another good question, Learnin. I think he had some agenda when he came up with that story. Maybe he was protecting someone else?

    I'm going to post the other set we have here of Lou in yet another RST propaganda program, crawling through the basement window in different clothing. One in particular has him on his knees in that well; see what you think about someone backing in after looking at it.


    Oops, sorry I blew the margins, Chero. Thanks for fixing them. I forgot to look. :blush:
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  5. cynic

    cynic Member

    It was from:
    Court TV, The Elite, "JonBenet: A Second Look" November 7, 2002
    Transcript here: http://www.acandyrose.com/11072002courttv-secondlook.htm

    Here are a few excerpts:

    Alex Hunter's search ended here.
    After looking at over 80 detectives he chose Lou Smit - who, like his Delorean sports car, had become an American legend.

    LOU SMIT - When you're not on a crime scene, you do miss out on quite a bit of the feelings that you get during the initial investigation. That's where photographs really do come in. Boulder Police Department did take great photographs. I did spend a great deal of time inspecting each and every one of those photographs and they did tell me a story.

    NARRATOR - Much of the house had been disturbed by friends who had gone to help the Ramseys. This made one police photograph particularly significant.

    LOU SMIT - JonBenét's body was right behind that door when this photograph was taken. If that door would have been opened at that time, this case would have taken an entirely different turn. Everyone in the house would have been cleared out - nothing would have been disturbed.

    It really wasn't that difficult coming in that window. And often a burglar or an intruder - if they find a safe way in they also figure it'll be a safe way out. And if you remember, there was a suitcase that was right underneath this window. And if he figures that he has to go out this window he may think it would be much easier if he has something to stand on.

    The Boulder police rejected his advice. Lead detective Steve Thomas, later publicly described the idea of an intruder as "far-fetched" and "ridiculous".

    NARRATOR - For her parents the agony of her death continues. They remain outcasts. They are broke and broken, and its likely to stay that way.

    Producers - David Mills and Michael Chrisman
    Executive Producer for Mills Productions - Michael Tracey
  6. cynic

    cynic Member

    Steve Thomas' response:

    Downstairs in the basement, another technician examined the broken window. Three windows, each eighteen-by-thirty-inch rectangles, were in a row. The top left pane in the center window was broken, and the screen was off. The tech noticed pieces of glass outside the window and a scuff mark on the wall. The dust, film, and debris on the windowsill were undisturbed.
    Outside, a detective examined the steel grate that covered the window well and found undisturbed cobwebs still attached from the grate to the bricks. The foliage around the grate also appeared undisturbed.

    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 40

    Elizabeth Vargas: You've actually done this... you and another detective tried to crawl through this window...
    Steve Thomas: Yes, several of us have. What's interesting is that the dirt and debris on the sill is absolutely undisturbed so unless we have a flying Spiderman who came through this window, I don't know how anyone could enter this window without coming across the sill.

    Good Morning America, Elizabeth Vargus, Interview with Steve Thomas

  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I was reading at ACR's today and she has a disclaimer about the alleged "crime scene" photos that made me back up.

    So before I discuss some more photos I have to say caveat emptor: because if these weren't taken the day the body was found, or by the crime scene techs or BPD before the house was turned back over to the Ramseys, then the questions I'm asking may be based on something that wasn't even there when the Ramseys were.

    Here's my short version of a disclaimer: FYI, the printing on these photos says crime scene photos, but we really have no way of knowing if these were taken by the Ramsey private investigators after the home was turned over to the Ramseys or if they came from the case evidence file. Smit created the "PowerPoint Presentation" as work product using the actual case files, for which he was handsomely paid under contract with DA Hunter. I have assumed when he shared these with the media they were solely from that PowerPoint Presentation and were copies of original crime scene photos he had access to while he worked for the DA. Many of our copies are screen captures taken from that media.

    But I have never had a copy of the PowerPoint collection in my possession, so I can't vouch for where these originated.

    Team Ramsey took their own photo collection when the BPD released the house back to them. Some were even staged rather convincingly and ended up in tabloids. So I have no way of knowing if these are from authentic crime scene photos, and I have been nearly fooled by staged pictures in the past. Just saying.

    Now you may see why I had to say all that: this is what the Ramsey basement window well looked like photographed from above--at some point, by someone. I've noticed the cord with the loop in it and four cord tails before, but I think it's worth considering that SOMEONE was playing with cords and knots not far from where JonBenet was strangled. If these photos are authentic, of course....

    Also, notice there appear to be other framed windows on the OPPOSITE SIDE of the window well--screens? Storm windows? This would make the window well even more narrow and difficult to enter without knocking those over and making noise, don't you think?

    Thoughts, anyone?




  8. zoomama

    zoomama Active Member

    Yes, KoldKase, I have a thought. Now that I look at these photos carefully I notice that in the first one not only is there a second window just leaning there but it isn't attached to any part of a building. There is no frame around it where it could fit into framework. I would think that side of the well would be concrete or cement wall. (I get the two confused)

    And then the really big thing that I notice is the 3 distinct brush marks that looks like the dirt and leaves and debris is purposefully brushed towards the real window. The first brush marks next to the solid wall side there on the left actually looks like a shoe tip has left it's indentation...3 times. Do you see what I'm seeing there. This is a staged scene. The 3rd window isn't brushed at all and the window has a screen on it.

    In Cynic's photo of the debris on the window ledge circled there is just dirt and heavy dust with no leaves at all.

    Photos are fake! Those marked crime scene just aren't what they are supposed to be.
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, cynic. Clearly I'd blocked this from memory for a reason. :puke:

    Smit a legend? In his own mind. Oh, they loved to pump him up, didn't they, full of hot air. He might have been a good detective once--I'll never know because all I ever saw was him shilling for the Ramseys with a level of nonsensical deductions that wouldn't pass muster in a group of average middle schoolers. Good detectives all across America work as hard, are smarter, and don't take the case evidence to work for the prime suspects. He became a legend, alright, like a corrupted version of Don Quixote.

    The Ramseys: broke and broken? Michael Tracey wrote bad fiction. How many azzes he kissed to make his way into being called a "journalism professor" I don't even want to know. Clearly he couldn't be bothered to find out what the reality of the Ramseys was: Patsy said in a CBN interview a few years after the murder, before this propaganda crap aired, with a big smile, "We're just fine." At their most broke they have always maintained boats, a private airplane, and expensive homes.

    But I digress....

    So the crime scene techs were there early that morning and at least two police officers; then the detectives began arriving not too long after the 911 call. There were the Whites and the Fernies who got there before the police; all were there before the "kidnappers" were supposed to call between 8 and 10 am. At some point that morning, though I can't remember exactly when, the Reverend and two victims' advocates showed up.

    See, this is what has always confused me: I know the house was over run with people, cars everywhere, all in spite of the "ransom note" threats, but LE was already processing the crime scene, taking photos, walking around outside checking for footprints in the snow--yea, there WAS snow outside, though Team Ramsey Smit did his best to make everyone believe there wasn't.

    It just makes NO SENSE. These might not have been the brightest bulbs, but come on! If you don't believe the child has been kidnapped, why would you NOT check EVERY ROOM with a fine tooth comb? You can't say, Oh, I didn't look in there because I saw the latch and figured no kidnapper could latch the door from the inside; and then turn around and say, Oh, there's no footprints in the snow, the ransom note is clearly fake, so we're not worried about alerting the kidnappers with the major traffic and cops everywhere because there are none.

    You can't have it both ways.

    So who was running this three ring circus? It might have gone off track at first, but it was 1996. Even small town cops can use phones and call for back up. Which they did, as the CBI was at the BPD fairly soon. Also, where was the FBI? A child kidnapping in a Lockheed Martin CEO's home? With a ransom note from terrorists?

    See, it makes NO SENSE.

    It was like LE already knew there were no kidnappers by 6 am and started processing the crime scene; but why bother if you're going to bury the case from the outset? It can't be for show, because what LE agency processes a crime scene when kidnappers might be watching and a child's life hangs in the balance? They were taking photos of the property, setting up what had to be sad equipment in a small town like Boulder. The FBI could have truly done a high tec job, but...someone told them to stand down though child kidnapping was their jurisdiction.

    See, that's why I cannot get the idea that it took Lockheed Martin level power to intervene in this investigation that early: who has the power call off the FBI?

    When was Arndt left alone at the house with the Kidnap Party? Before JR went into the basement around 10 am. It's simply hard to understand LE ran into a kidnapping crime scene, did a quick processing, ran back out, leaving her with 9 wild card adults and ignoring her calls when she tried to get back up.

    I'm sorry. I'm back at my conspiracy theory. It's all that makes sense.
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, I see what you're talking about.

    See, until I read that disclaimer at ACR's today, I'd never questioned that these photos were taken by the crime scene techs who worked for the BPD.

    But she made a point I'd never thought about: crime scene photos don't have "crime scene photos not for publication" printed on them.

    ACR said that means those words were added. I'm thinking probably by computer, to use outside of LE. Who did that? Smit was the one who got that PowerPoint composed and burned onto cds he then walked away with for his private collection. He also handed out the cds with those pictures to the media and chosen propaganda shills.

    Smit worked with Ollie and San Agustin in the DA's Office, as well. Hunter hired all three. We didn't know that, did we, until San Agustin got overzealous and bragged about it for credibility on Nancy Grace's show one night over the "touch" DNA scam. The three shills-for-hire were in it together all along. Ha!

    So think about all the lies, the disinformation, always chasing that old intruder--yet never getting closer than sub-particle artifact.

    Would these azz clowns shove a little debris here and there, take some photos, and sell it as proof an intruder went through that window?

    I wouldn't put it past them. Look at them squeezing in and out of the window like that proves something other than they barely can make it.

    Who else do we have photos of screwing around that window well?
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here's a video at Why Nut's youtube channel showing Smit doing his basement window demo for the Tracey program aired on Court TV. Smit dragging his butt in the well and over the sill is cut short, edited to his slide onto the floor.


    Of course they manipulate the truth. Team Ramsey has done that since the beginning--starting on Dec. 25th, 1996.
    Last edited: May 23, 2012
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So not knowing how authentic these "crime scene" photos are, I'm left pondering if this little "string doll" was in the window well the night JonBenet was murdered, or was it something that got inside there later?

    If it was in there the night JonBenet was killed, then was it something that came from the Ramseys? Or did it just blow in off the street?

    And man, would I love to see that cord close up to compare to the cord used on JonBenet.

  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    cynic appears to be a pro when it comes to close-ups KK, maybe he can enlarge it for you (?). To me I almost see a very fine thread entwined around the string about an 1/8th of an inch apart. Can you see this?
    Not unless it is the actual twisting of the string itself which gives this illusion (?).
  14. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    This doesn't really look like cord. It is too rigid. It looks more like some kind of vinyl coated wire.
    As far as the window photos- there seem to be two different kind of basement windows in the house. One type opened awning-style and the other was a smaller style that had a wood grill or muntin separating the panes of glass and opened casement-style. I don't know which was in the train room, but the awning type would be almost impossible for an adult to get under. I seem to recall reading long ago that some of the basement windows had been replaced at some point. The problem with some of the photos is that some of the interior shots were obviously taken that day and some were taken after the Rs house had been emptied and whitewashed. I would hope that police did take photos of the window wells that day, but again- we don't know for sure.
  15. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    When you look at the narrow entrance to that window, one thing is for certain. Police would have been able to determine if someone had entered through there, just a few hours earlier, within seconds. You have to literally sit down in that space before entering the window ala Smit's demonstration. The intruder would have disrupted the dirt with his or hers hands, butt and legs. There is no nimble way to enter because it's so narrow. You, literally, would have to rest much of your lower half in the well and then scoot through the window thereby disrupting the debris resting there.

    Obviously, the police were looking for an entrance since they noted the intact cobweb. ST notes the dirt was undisturbed so that should end the discussion. That dirt would have been strewn all over the place. Smit had to know this and, yet, he pushed the window theory.
  16. Elle

    Elle Member

    Could be DeeDee. It does look rigid. For sure, I can see a few sections quite clearly. A biege colour wound around whatever!(?).
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Here is a graphic of the layout of the basement with teensy photos pointing to this and that. You'll notice in the upper right is a photo of that window which raises horizontally. I should have it somewhere in the original, larger version, but until/if I can find it, this is in our case library.

  18. cynic

    cynic Member

    There is a picture over at ACR:
  19. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    There's another consideration, Learnin: it was winter, snowing that night. If an intruder went to the Ramseys with a pre-planned attempt at whatever wild story Team Ramsey can conjure up, he still would have had some kind of coat on, or at least a jacket or outer vest. He would need pockets, would he not, to bring in tape, cord, and the "stun gun" Smit coveted so. Don't forget the ROPE! And the paper bag...oh, lord, what didn't that intruder bring? Other than a ransom note, flashlight, garrote, and a plan on how to get the child out one of the half dozen doors he passed going in and out (all unlocked, by the time the Ramseys finished changing their stories.)

    My point is he would hardly have ventured to the crime scene without layered clothing. So add some kind of outer, cold weather apparel with pockets full of stuff...and squeezing through that window is without leaving plenty of fibers and other evidence he'd been there is even less believable.

    If that string/wire/whatever figure in the well was there that morning, I can't believe LE wouldn't have collected it. Maybe it's in the search warrants?
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thank you! You da MAN, cynic!
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