If Patsy is the killer....

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Mar 1, 2007.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    (Pardon if we've discussed this before, but not much we haven't....)

    Last night they had the very interesting show on the Discover Channel/Learning Channel. It was one of a series called "Most Evil" featuring various killers who are analysed on a scale created by Dr. Michael Stone. I've seen this scale before on other shows, but this one was called "Murderous Women."

    Some of the women's names were hard for me to catch/spell correctly, but a couple I already knew: Susan Smith (10 on the scale) and Aileen Wuornos (higher up but missed the actual number). So I looked up Dr. Stone's scale online because I wondered if Patsy in fact straight out struck and/or garroted JonBenet--after an accident, to hide prior molestation, out of rage, name your theory, where do you think she'd be on this scale?

    (I can't post the scale here, so maybe some of you handy computer whizzes will do it for this discussion, and thanks if you can/do.)

  2. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    <table class="wikitable"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#cccccc"> <th>Category</th> <th>Criteria</th> </tr> <tr> <td>01</td> <td>Those who kill in self defense and do not show psychopathic tendencies</td> </tr> <tr> <td>02</td> <td>Jealous lovers who, though egocentric or immature, are not psychopathic</td> </tr> <tr> <td>03</td> <td>Willing companions of killers: aberrant personality—probably impulse-ridden, with antisocial traits</td> </tr> <tr> <td>04</td> <td>Killed in self-defense, but had been extremely provocative towards the victim</td> </tr> <tr> <td>05</td> <td>Traumatized, desperate people who kill abusive relatives and others.(like to support a drug habit)" but lack significant traits. Genuinely remorseful</td> </tr> <tr> <td>06</td> <td>Impetuous, hotheaded murderers, yet without marked psychopathic features</td> </tr> <tr> <td>07</td> <td>Highly narcissistic not distinctly psychopathic people with a psychotic core who kill people close to them (jealously an underlying motive)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>08</td> <td>Non psychopathic people with smoldering rage who kill when rage is ignited</td> </tr> <tr> <td>09</td> <td>Jealous lovers with psychopathic features</td> </tr> <tr> <td>10</td> <td>Killers of people who were "in the way" or who killed, for example, witnesses (egocentric but not distinctly psychopathic)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>11</td> <td>Psychopathic killers of people "in the way"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>12</td> <td>Power-hungry psychopaths who killed when they were "cornered"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>13</td> <td>Killers with inadequate, rage-full personalities who "snapped"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>14</td> <td>Ruthlessly self-centered psychopathic schemers</td> </tr> <tr> <td>15</td> <td>Psychopathic "cold-blooded" spree or multiple murders</td> </tr> <tr> <td>16</td> <td>Psychopaths committing multiple vicious acts</td> </tr> <tr> <td>17</td> <td>Sexually perverse serial murderers torture-murderers (among the males rape is the primary motive with murder to hide the evidence; Systematic torture is not a primary factor)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>18</td> <td>Torture-murderers with murder the primary motive</td> </tr> <tr> <td>19</td> <td>Psychopaths driven to terrorism, subjugation, intimidation and rape, (short of murder)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>20</td> <td>Torture murderers with torture as the primary motive but in psychotic personalities</td> </tr> <tr> <td>21</td> <td>Psychopaths preoccupied with torture in the extreme, but not known to have committed murder</td> </tr> <tr> <td>22</td> <td>Psychopathic torture-murderers, with torture their primary motive</td></tr></tbody></table>
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Awwww...what a sweet matey you are, Moab. And after I called you an old pyrate, too! :beats:
  4. icedtea4me

    icedtea4me Member

    I think Patsy fits #8 and #10.

    08 Non psychopathic people with smoldering rage who kill when rage is ignited

    It is rather telling that she brought up Susan Smith during the Jan 1, 1997 CNN interview for Smith killed her children because they stood in the way of her being with Finley.

  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Number 8 and 10 are certainly in line with the theory that she lost it with JonBenet for one or another reason: bedwetting; JonBenet threatened to "tell" someone about being molested and blow their social and professional standing; an argument over something when Patsy was under a lot of stress; etc.

    But I can see different scenarios/theories going from number 6 to number 14.
  6. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    Lucky seven.
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    Mostly 7 but could be 8, but this also describes John.

    Very interesting scale of murderers. Is the male scale the same thing?
  8. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    seven, eight and thirteen
  9. tylin

    tylin Banned

    seven, eight, fourteen
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, it's the same scale for males and females.

    So sevens and eights seem to be favored.

    Now, what theory of the murder is leading you to your choices?
  11. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    My study of psychosis, art and religion, led me to the sacrifice theory and the Seraph report. Investigating Patsy's artistic nature led me to read about what she performed on stage, where I found commonalities between the crime and literature Patsy was involved with. Myth, dreams and murder, that's human history, not just theory.
  12. heymom

    heymom Member

    I vacillate between:

    the unintentional but anger-related head injury and cover-up by both, but directed by John, or

    the loss of temper by John and cover-up mainly by him with the RN written by Patsy. John had more to lose in the situation, frankly, assuming he was the one abusing JonBenet.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    OK, I get that you are married to your...history. And before you throw a punch, you should know I've been in a few fights myself --->>>:fight:

    But I guess I was actually asking for a quick correlation--or a not so quick one, if you like--between what you think Patsy did and the rating on the scale you chose to describe her. IOW, match the actions to the scale.

    Since I THINK you believe Patsy had some heavy mental issues going on involving her sexuality and that of JonBenet's, but I'm not sure exactly how you think that led to the murder in specifics, I just wondered if you might be so kind as to use the scale to clear that up for us crack ho's who have trouble keeping up with your deep, Jungian, psychological, artistic, religious analysis...if you know what I mean.

    See, Paradox, some of us have only a few brain cells left running the store, so to speak...and any one of the three issues you so deftly weave together is enough to give us migraines. Capice? No? :runaway:
  14. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So this would go with #7 or #8?

    So for Patsy, this would go more with #3? "03 Willing companions of killers: aberrant personality—probably impulse-ridden, with antisocial traits."
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2007
  15. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm not placing a number, because there's nothing on this list which relates to accidental killing, is there? I do not think this murder was premeditated.
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I understand, Elle. Not everyone does. Personally, I can't imagine the garrote being accidental, and since strangulation is listed as the COD, the only way I can see an argument that it wasn't intentional is if someone believes the killer didn't know JonBenet was still alive when strangling her. That argument has been made. I consider it possible, if the head injury was so severe she somehow appeared dead and had no involuntary physical reaction to being strangled, but I find that very unlikely.

    Then again, I've never strangled anyone who was having major brain trauma...or at all, really, so what do I know? :winkaway:
  17. heymom

    heymom Member

    It's confusing - I think I'm stretching the categories to fit my theories. Like Elle says, the under-stress-patience-gone parent being too rough with her and causing an accidental head injury doesn't really fit anywhere.

    As for John, I think he is fully capable of being an abuser, so Patsy would be an unwilling but passive and fearful accomplice. In that scenario, John would have been attempting something with JonBenet, she resisted, he struck her and then set up the strangling, bringing Patsy in to write the ransom note, after threatening her if she said anything.

    I don't know if anyone else here holds that as a possibility. Maybe I'm just :nuts:
  18. Elle

    Elle Member

    This is what I believe, KK, that it was an accident; that Patsy thought JonBenét was already dead from the injury, but she had to make it look like a murder. She was up the whole night concocting the staging. I think JonBenét was probably close to death when Patsy thought she was already dead, and she finished her off with strangling her, not by the garrote, because that has been proved as a useless tool by Delmar England, but strangled her maybe with a scarf, and then proceeded to create the garrotte, to make it look like a sexual pervert had entered the scene.

    Strangulation is not listed by itself as COD, according to the extract from the autopsy below. It is associated with the head injury.


  19. Little

    Little Member

    I don't think Patsy purposely caused the death of JonBenet, so I will have to go with #1. I think in her mind she was acting in self defense with the staging (which may have been what finished off JonBenet) because she could never allow anyone to know she had caused JonBenet's death, accident or not. IMO Patsy would have done anything she had to when she thought JohBenet was dead. The only people in the house that night were the four of them, so she had to create a fifth person.

  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    I also think Patsy Ramsey knew her little girl could never have survived the head injury. She was the cause of it and witnessed JonBenét being practically knocked out cold from having been thrown around in a rage, with her head striking a solid object like a bathtub. Therefore Patsy had to look after "Patsy" and make it look like an accident.
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