In-Depth Discussion of Kolar's Book "Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet?"

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by koldkase, Jul 20, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, maybe. But go back and look at my finished post. I put in the broken glass shard outside the window.

    I guess I'm thinking this might explain why Patsy and John wanted to conceal the actual way that window got broken. It's been a mystery for a very long time. What difference does it make?

    I've seen so many ideas and theories, and none of them seem to make sense, including a few of my own.

    But if "someone" threw something from inside that broke that window, maybe the Ramseys wanted to conceal that because rage is what began the death of JonBenet.

    All along we've looked at the window as being broken from OUTSIDE the window, from the window well.

    What if JR truly was concealing what was in his left hand by getting us to look in his right?

    And in his left hand...was a window pane broken FROM INSIDE the basement.

    No big deal, right? Windows get broken. Children even break them, especially ball players, golfers, etc.

    So why go to such lengths to hide it?

    We've often wondered why JR would "stage" the broken window and then tell LE four months later he broke it?

    First he told White that he had broken the window himself, or that's what JR told LE. He led White to that window right before they "found" the body. Did White confirm their conversation about John breaking the window? I'm drawing a blank.

    If that's true, JR wanted to take credit for breaking the window early on. Four months passed before JR shared that with LE in the '97 interview.

    It never made sense, even as we were distracted with the Smit/intruder through the window theory.

    Unless John and Patsy knew that window was broken in a rage by someone who tended to lose control, someone they wanted to protect. Someone who played in that area a lot.

    Okay, it's more speculation, but as you said, wombat, a chemical test could have proven what was on that wall.

    I just wish I could even hope they did that test.
  2. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    koldkase, I'm following you loud and clear on this. I think you're on to something now that I've read all your posts and how you show that John was making things up on the run. I don't believe John broke that window or ever went into the house that way. I laid tape out on my kitchen floor tonight which is the exact dimension of the window well given to us by Kolar. There's only one way to get in that window and it's the way Smit slid in.

    I used to be fooled by Patsy's testimony where she says she and Linda cleaned up the broken glass. I used to think, "well, I guess it was broken earlier in the year." But I read, recently, and you pointed out, that Linda denied knowing about the broken window! If that's true, wow!

    I'm trying to answer your question. Why would John make up a story about that window? I wonder. Some of us think BR wielded a golf club that night. Could he have broken the window when he reared the club behind him to strike down at JBR? This would explain their need to come up with a story of an earlier break.....
  3. wombat

    wombat Member

    I agree that the window is a "center" of the lying that began that day.

    But the stain on the wall looks to me like long-term water infiltration from the exterior of the home to the interior. I know I need to give everyone a detailed analysis of how the wall below the window looked that way, but I am on the way to a business trip and won't be able to, for a couple of days.

    In regard to whether the glass was hit from the inside or the outside - that's easy: the shards would tell how they were hit - take a dish you don't like much and hit it with a hammer at its center; gather up the shards and try to reassemble - you will see that on the "hit side" the plate is crushed, but on the "away side" the shards are longer, more fine. This would have been routine failure analysis in 1996.

    Sorry, truly. If will post if I get time.
  4. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Because of the cobwebs on the glass spikes in the broken area of the window, I'm thinking the window had been broken for some time.

    But maybe the issue wasn't that Burke broke it that night, but that he broke it, period, in a rage of some kind.

    Maybe he used a golf club or a bat to break it, which would be even more damning to admit if that's similar to or directly what was used to bludgeon his sister.

    As you said in your thread, maybe it's that simple. Maybe they were covering up Burke's past violent behavior which would be a direct clue to who cracked JB's skull in half that night.

    I still wonder about that stain on the wall, though. It certainly can be what wombat is thinking, but we really don't know. If I look at it closely, I can see a pattern that does appear to me to resemble a liquid running down the wall.

    It's directly under the location of the broken window pane, as well.

    I guess I'm wondering if either of the kids threw a glass full of liquid and hit the window. Maybe Burke threw it at another kid, or at JB? Or vice versa? That would be evidence of them fighting rather hard, as well, even if it weren't directly a hit with a golf club.
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I think we get the gist of the idea, wombat, so don't worry about us while you're working. We'll manage to have lots of things for you to explain to us when you get back? :square:

    You are following my train of thought, though. I was about to ask you to give us the deets on how to determine if the window was broken from the inside or outside.

    We don't really have those glass shards to figure it out, I'm afraid, because the Ramseys had already cleaned them up, hadn't they?

    We do have the one on the sill, from the crime scene video of the basement. But it's hard to get a good screen capture of it that shows the edges that well. It's glass, after all, and the camera used by LE wasn't very good that night, in the dark, in 1996, with only a flashlight to wash out close-ups they tried to shoot.

    But that one large shard was on the outside of the window sill, not inside. Unless someone moved it there, or I should say if it fell there when the window broke, would that indicate it was broken from the inside, or would there be some pieces which fell back towards the blow for some reason?

    Okay, hope you have a good trip. We'll work hard to make sure you feel needed when you get back. :idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea::idea:
  6. Karen

    Karen Member

    I've read somewhere that LE removed that window and took it in. They can tell from which side it was broke. Since Kolar doesn't seem to dispute the window in his book I have to assume that he is buying the explanation. He would have the test results from the lab that tested it for all kinds of things the least of which is from which side was it broken.

    I get what you're saying koldkase since now we know so much about Burke. One of my first thoughts were of a train car that could have been thrown, but there was so much junk down there it could have been anything. But I keep coming back to Kolars book and he doesn't dispute the window. I, however, don't believe for a minute John Ramsey did what he says he did. I'm with Elle, I'm not buying that story, but if Kolar believes that it was broken from the outside I tend to lean that direction.

    About that "scuff mark", it isn't in the right place to be a scuff mark from a grown man. Perhaps a child. It's too high up. It looks like it would be at a mans thigh or knee if he were coming in backwards. Maybe someone can use the Lou Smit photo to see if it matches up? I don't know how to do it. I understand it may not be a scuff mark at all but let's just say we are debunking John Ramseys story and go from there. I don't think it's in the right place on the wall.
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I'm searching JR's first LE interview, with Steve Thomas and TTrujillo (can't remember how to spell that), in April, 1997, four months after the murder.

    JR only allowed 2 hours for LE to question him that day, so the detectives had to try to run through as much as they could. Consequently, JR's "broken window" story was short on details this time around. But there are some interesting things I notice.

    For one thing, parts of the story had changed by June, 1998. Of course there was much more time to get into more detail, but still things stick out.

    In 1997, JR seemed to remember much less about breaking the window and going through that than he did much later, in 1998.

    [This transcript differs a lot from the later ones, as it's typed up in prose. I'm trying to remember if this was from the National Enquirer book, made from the videos jams sold?]

    So we have time issues, which Kolar brings up in his book: did JR go downstairs to the basement before 10, which would have been strange since the kidnappers hadn't called yet? Or was he confused about that?

    But JR seems to stumble a lot at the beginning of his story of him and Fleet going into the train room and checking out the window. He's hardly coherent. He points out the train room window is the only point of entry available to an intruder, indicating that was why he checked on it. But then he finds it open, latches it back, doesn't tell LE for four months, and makes excuses for why it was open.

    Thomas later asks for more detail about breaking the window. Notice the equivocation. Remember this is less than a year after JR says he broke the window. The June, 1998, LE interview was nearly 2 years after JR said he broke the window, but he seemed to remember details more in 1998.

    One observation: In four months time after the murder, seems like a distraught father looking for his child's killer might just find out if the broken window had actually been fixed by the handyman. Especially since that's the same family JR clearly says in this interview they suspected early on.

    So after dropping a dime on the cleaning lady...again...JR gives his theory about the intruder coming in that basement window...and says he checked ALL the doors that morning and they were ALL locked. So it's the basement window or nothing...right?

    Oh, and here's some trivia I didn't remember: the Samsonite suitcase under the window, that belonged to JAR, which he used and then stored at his father's home? BRAND NEW.

    And again, the detectives are all over that window-breaking story. JR almost gets tongue-tied at one point.

    When Thomas asked John very specific questions about how he entered the window, JR choked. Flat out stuttered.

    And those shoes...they always get me. He took off his jacket and pants, maybe or maybe not his shirt...but put his shoes back on. Of course he did. He had to kick in the basement window!

    I'm sorry, I just cannot see it. I may be wrong, but this story is very fishy.
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    There are many things Kolar didn't specifically address, of course. He'd have to have written five books to answer all our questions.

    But I do still have those questions, and without a definite answer, I can't dismiss the question as answered by default. Irritating, I know, but that's me. :yes:

    For example: Kolar had no idea the Ramseys had turned a package of Bloomies over to Lacy in 2002, claiming they were the original pack from which those found on JB came. That's some pretty darn important evidence...and so far, not one of the people who so loved to share case evidence with the public when it could be spun in favor of the Ramseys has ever mentioned any results from testing that package.

    And Kolar never heard of it.

    So with 60K pages of case file, I'm thinking Kolar might have missed this. Or maybe he does know the window was broken from the inside, but that's one of those case secrets he's holding back because it's so important?

    Or maybe it was broken from the outside window well...though I'm still not buying JR was the person who broke it like he claims.

    I have no answers, obviously, but anyway, just some thoughts.

    And thanks for playing "Another Wild Goose Chase With Koldkase!" :wave:
  9. otg

    otg Member

    Ewwwwwwwwww........ I just had another thought.



    Scuff marks, or skid marks? :booty:

  10. heymom

    heymom Member

    This part of the story has never made any sense to me. As much as I try, I just cannot tie any part of the story together with any other part.

    Was JR trying to say that someone HAD broken in from the window that night? And if that was the case, why didn't he simply leave the window alone and say, "Look! That window was broken!" Why would he ever tell LE that HE had broken the window a year ago? Was he trying to say that the window was previously broken by HIM, and then that break was USED by the intruder to get into the house? If so, why did he touch the window and move glass around, etc.? Why not just call it to LE's attention, "I broke that window a year ago, Patsy was supposed to have it fixed, I guess she didn't, it was still broken and that is how the intruder got into the house!"

    But he never suggests that - all the balderdash about the glass, the suitcase, the window well, the semi-naked break in - it just connects JOHN with the window, not the intruder.

    I just can't make any of the pieces fit in my mind. But I agree with Elle - the idea that John Ramsey would break into his own house through a basement window well, having stripped down to his jockey shorts, but still with dress shoes and socks on, is ABSURD. The only reason I can see him doing this (and he says he did it more than once, correct?) is that Patsy would have had his head if he'd broken any window pane within sight of the neighbors or the street.

    They had an alarm, right? But they never armed it? So he wouldn't have been setting off an alarm to break into the house.

    I can see JR b*tching at Patsy for locking him out and not being there...

    The whole window story seems like a giant red herring to me. Am I crazy??
  11. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    First of all, IF JR went through that window he would most certainly remember how he did it. That is simply the kind of thing you'd remember.
    I don't believe he did it, and I agree that the mark on the wall doesn't look like a scuff mark at all- it looks like water infiltration. I had a basement with walls like that - and there were some areas with exactly that kind of mark. It is pretty common with below-grade basement walls made out of porous material like cinderblocks, stucco, cement, concrete.
    There would have been one certain way to prove Smit wrong...swab the mark. Then it could have been tested to see if it was made by the sole of a shoe. Of course, it could also have been tested against any shoes JR owned that he would have worn with a suit- (he claims to have been wearing a suit at the time which he removed to go through the window).
    I already know what he would have said if asked to provide the shoes..he "couldn't remember" which ones they were or.they were discarded/lost. Just like Patsy's fur-trimmed boots. And BR's He-Tec shoes/sneakers. This family seems to have some memory lapses regarding their footwear the night of the murder.
  12. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Well, reading the transcripts that kk brought to our attention, I have to agree with DeeDee that John would've remembered how he went through that window well. That's a tight fit and you would have to experiment as to how you could get in there and you could only go in there like Smit showed.
    You would remember this. According to the transcripts, John wouldn't even commit to how he actually broke the window!!! He thought probably with his foot. You would know this!

    Now. Koldkase was right when she reminded me of the cobweb spun between the broken glass remaining in the window pane. This means the basement window had been broken for a while before the murder.

    I, also, agree with those who have put forth the notion that the mark, on the wall, is a watermark.

    And. Koldkase, also, pointed out how important LE thought this broken window story was because they belabored the point while questioning John. Why did they think John might be lying about breaking that window? Evidently, they thought he might be since they wanted to hear exactly how he got down there.

    So. Why did John concoct the story about his breaking the window??? If we could come up with the reason, then, we might be well on our way. The only reason I could think of right away was because it was broken during the commission of the head blow. But, as koldkase reminded me, the cobweb seems to negate that line of reasoning. Why, then, did John say he broke the window trying to get into the house if the window really had been broken well before Christmas night????

    I'm going to be thinking about this for the next few days, as time permits, and I hope some of you can do the same.

    I'll throw out a thought to start things rolling. John and Patsy were aware that another person, or persons, were aware the basement window was broken before Christmas night. Maybe LHP did help clean up the glass. At any rate, they would know that LE was going to ask about that broken window, and since other people knew, they couldn't say, "well, the perp must've broken it." They had to come up with a reason for the window being broken (as LE was bound to ask at some point) and they came up with this one. Why not tell the truth? Is it, as kk mentioned, that it was broken in another rage attack? But why not just say it was broken by a ball being thrown?
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2012
  13. Karen

    Karen Member

    John Andrew was living there off and on during his college days and I could see someone like him doing what John Ramsey claimed to have done. He was younger and nimbler and skinnier and I think he could pull it off. I can also see someone like him losing his key or just not having one at the time and not knowing where or who had extra keys. BUT why would John lie for John Andrew and say he did it himself? Of course we aren't altogether sure it was broken from the outside. I've been thinking since Kolar bought the story about John he must know. But he wrote his book in such a way that if it was in GJ testimony he wouldn't tell us one way or another. So this may be an important piece of evidence he didn't get all the way in to because of the GJ restrictions. So I'm going to consider the window having been broken from either way.

    In the video did anyone else notice the white wired basket tray that was pulled out? When that caught my eye I looked to see what was in it and it seems to be Patsys craft stuff. Maybe the cord or tape was in there? She didn't seem to be capable of closing any drawers she happened to open as evidenced by all the drawers in John Andrews bathroom and the cupboard with the pull ups.
    Speaking of that, I remember in DOI I think Patsy said she stayed in John Andrews bedroom when she had cancer. I wonder if medical supplies were stored in JA's bathroom that she was using? With all those drawers in there left open I wonder if she was trying to find something to help Jonbenet that night after the head blow?
  14. cynic

    cynic Member

    OTG, Is this some sort of smear campaign? :D
  15. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I cannot imagine how the window could have gotten broken during the head bash. The window was behind the furnace, wasn't it? And it was high up on the wall. That would be an awkward place to be standing while bashing her. I also assume, IMO, that she was bashed because she screamed and she screamed because she was being molested and it hurt. I suppose this could have taken place in the train room (the room with the broken window) - the suitcase with the semen-stained comforter and child's book was also there.
    Part of the problem is that it has never been determined where the different aspects of the crime took place. The only thing that seems to have been concluded is that the garrote was made right on her body, as she lay on her stomach right outside the wineceller door- the paint tote right next to her. As for the rest of it- molestation, head bash, scream, etc. we really don't know for sure, and neither do the investigators. Had the house not been released to the family so soon, we might have had those answers. Because as soon as they got back into the house, they had it painted and all the carpets pulled up.
    Patsy had only redecorated that house three years previous- they moved there when JB was three years old, so nothing was so old that it needed replacing or painting. That was a whitewash, literally and figuratively.
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    DeeDee, I'm confused about your mention of the window behind the furnace. I thought you were thinking that was the broken window being discussed, but then you say that was in the train room, so I'm not sure what you mean.

    I've believed for a long time Patsy and JR were covering for someone with their story of how JR broke and crawled in that window. It's obvious to me they're both lying.

    The story Patsy tells about this window is classic Patsy lying to LE: too much detail, rambling on and on. She does the exact same thing when she tells the "lost cell phone" story. If you read those two together, you may see what I mean.

    I wondered for many years if they were covering up for JAR, who, I speculated, broke it under circumstances they didn't want to reveal for some reason. He got pinched for under age drinking earlier in '96, I think it was, and was scheduled to take some kind of classes as part of his probation or some such, but then the murder happened and I have no idea if he ever did.

    So I thought maybe the Ramseys were trying to cover for him, so he wouldn't get into more trouble. But there was no way to prove he'd been drinking unless someone was with him and they didn't want that person questioned, too, because he/she might tell the truth, I pondered.

    But now I'm thinking their daughter's murder is a tad more important than JAR's little drinking under age problem. If JAR had a buddy with him, for example, or even a girlfriend, that person would know about the broken window, right? SUSPECT! Why lie about it, then, when suspects are at a premium? Even knowing there was no intruder, the Ramseys still needed all the red herrings they could get. But, I thought, JAR has always been on my suspect list at least for the prior molestation. He had means and opportunity, of course. So maybe the Ramseys just didn't want him on LE radar for more questions, innocent or not--IF this were the case. But there are other possibilities, perhaps more incriminating.

    One reason Thomas and Trujillo questioned JR about that window so thoroughly is before that interview they had no idea JR claimed to have broken the window. Thomas wrote in his book they were quite astonished when John told them that, because of course they'd been pursuing that as an entry point for an intruder. (All Ramsey spin to the contrary....)

    When John told them he broke it, they realized they'd wasted a lot of time on that window. WASTED. Time in any criminal investigation is critical, and JR just told them they'd wasted a lot because the Ramseys refused to come in and simply talk to them, without multiple conditions, for four months.

    But JR never telling them about it before April raised a huge red flag for them, as well. Why on earth would he not tell LE that long before 4 months into the investigation? Hello?

    This discussion about that mark under the window...even if it's not related to the broken window...triggered the thought for me that the window could have been broken from the inside, not the outside. That would change a lot.

    Clearly that would mean the Ramseys lied about it. Shocker. :rolleyes:

    And the only reason I can think of is because they don't want the person who broke it known.

    Only one reason for that: it's incriminating.

    We know JB was bludgeoned. I personally feel it was a blow struck in rage, not planned.

    While I can look at the evidence on and around the body and at the point of strangulation and death, plus the staging, and conclude that Patsy was all over that, I still can't say for certain who struck the head blow, based in any physical evidence. We don't actually know for certain what weapon was used to do that, in fact.

    But if the window was broken from the inside, that could change things.

    As you've questioned, if it were something as innocuous as a ball accidently going through the window, why lie about that? It simply isn't necessary, since JR was admitting it wasn't broken by an intruder anyway.

    But if the maid is truthful and not just forgetting, if she had no knowledge of the broken window, I'm going to speculate she simply hadn't spent any time in that area of the basement: look at it. Nobody was cleaning that area up.

    So who cleaned up the glass, whenever it happened? Linda H-Pugh said Patsy would have made her clean it up. But she only worked a few days a week, part time. So maybe it happened when she wasn't coming in for a few days, or had a vacation and wasn't going to be there for a week or so. Patsy does elaborate on the safety issue with the children playing down there. Maybe that part of what Patsy said was true, so she cleaned it up herself.

    Maybe it's that simple.

    Or maybe it was such a shocking incident, Patsy and JR didn't want to tell the truth about how it happened. Maybe it was an act of rage, violence, and they knew it would be incriminating for the person who committed it. So maybe Patsy cleaned it up and never mentioned it to the maid, who seldom went into that area anyway, obviously.

    The Ramseys and the maid said the Christmas decor was stored in the cellar room. There was another room downstairs, behind the laundry room, where a lot of stuff was stored, as well. So I think it's likely the maid never did see the broken window, though it clearly had been broken for some amount of time with old cobwebs still on the broken glass shards in the window on Dec. 26th.

    So I have to ask, did the BPD got that window examined by some engineering experts, CBI, FBI...someone who could determine if it had been broken from the inside or outside? Kolar really doesn't tell us, so we could assume it was broken from the outside because he questions a lot of what John said.

    But as you pointed out, maybe that was a grand jury issue investigated and so Kolar didn't feel comfortable revealing it.

    Or maybe nobody thought about it. It's not like JR's "intruder" didn't leave a lot of misleading evidence all over the place.

    Ha. I think I do now believe the Ramseys spent all night staging this mess of a crime scene.

    They could not fix the window that night. Since they were staging a kidnapping, the intruder had to get in somehow. The broken window was clearly opportune; JR even insisted he'd checked all the doors that morning on the first floor and they were all locked.

    Of course, the maid had a key, and she and her family were the first post-murder Ramsey victims. (Really Christian of the Ramseys, wasn't it? Sacrifice the poor because they're not important anyway.)

    Well, I'm rambling now. But I am finding the idea that the window was broken from the inside, in a room which is associated with Burke and his trains, fits as motive for John and Patsy to lie about how it was broken, if Burke was having rage issues which resulted in JB's death.

    That makes me think of the books Patsy's parents bought, the ones Kolar brought up:

    The one about "growing up too fast" or something like that? JB was dressed and painted like a grown woman, taught to flirt and strut on stage like one, as well. Patsy told her friend Pam Archuleta JB was "flirting" and Patsy was clearly concerned. Maybe the Paughs knew something about how that was causing problems.

    Then there's the book about why "Johnny" doesn't know right from I getting that right?

    Can't remember the third one. I know you posted the links, OTG, so have you studied this? Any thoughts you can share? Or anyone?
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I have to say, though you all seem certain it's from some kind of water leaching into the basement wall, we do not have proof of that. I don't see it anywhere else on the wall, for instance.

    I understand it could be just what you think it is.

    I also understand that many times I've been certain of something in this case, only to find out eventually I was totally wrong.

    Having said this, I will tell you I've seen liquid dried on a wall where it had run down, and it looked much like that.

    And here's the thing that gives me that kind of hair-standing-up-on-the-back-of-my-neck feeling...that gut thing:

    The moment that thought came into my head, I knew the broken window frame would line up with that mark.

    That's why I made up the graphic, using the photo we've long studied of that wall of windows. It's not perfect, of course, but the proportions and placement I was able to manage are pretty close to how that window would have been positioned when closed.

    It lines up to the dark stain on the wall, if say a heavy-bottomed glass with tea were thrown and broke the window, the liquid falling downward out of the glass, with gravity, and splashing against the wall from the forward momentum? Or maybe a soda bottle of some kind?

    Of course, just speculation and I could be totally wrong. Wouldn't be the first...even the hundredth...time. But LE could know, because they could have tested the marks on the wall.

    If not, I'm thinking we need to petition the CO governor just to turn the darn investigation over to us: by god we at least have ideas that could get some answers.

    And put Kolar and Thomas in charge. :yes: :justice:
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I think someone said her medical supplies were in that bathroom...maybe an LE interview?
  19. Karen

    Karen Member

    This is the photo that has the tray pulled out that I was referring to in an earlier post.

    If you watch the video and pause it when you get to the mark on the wall you can see clearly it splits into two fat streaks at the top, (where it begins on the wall). As liquid of some sort would do. It's either seepage or a stain from some kind of liquid as kk is exploring. It is definitely NOT a scuff mark. Unless whatever made it was a fish and that was a fin. :winko:
  20. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Who broke the window?

    I suppose that the cobweb spun between between the broken glass was among the things which led Kolar to conclude that the window pane had been broken for a while before the homicide.
    But if this was the case (but John's story about having broken the window himself was a lie) - who could have broken it? Maybe Burke, when he had been playing in the train room at a time when the spiders had not yet been in hibernation?
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