In which room do you think the head blow occurred?

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Learnin, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I think we've made some headway since Kolar's book has opened up some new evidence for us to consider. For instance, I think it's safe to say that many of us are reaching a concensus that a golf club is the most likely cause of the head wound. It would be interesting to see if we can narrow a few more things down.

    I would like for us to approach this topic from the following standpoint. None of us may know 100% for sure exactly where JBR was when she was struck over the head. That's okay. Let's do it this way. Let's pretend your life depends on it. There's only so many rooms in the house. Your odds are about, what, 1 in however many rooms there were in the house? We all have sifted through a mountain of evidence....the blood on the pillow.....the wadded up red sweater on JBR's bathroom vanity....the golf clubs in the basement....take an educated guess...with everything you have sifted through, pick a room as if you're life depended on it. Let's see if we can, at least, obtain a majority. Explain, as best you can, the things which make you stake your life on this room.

    Lastly, I don't want to make this out to be a game because a game it is not. I'd just like to believe that Kolar's book gave us a little more hope that, someday, the truth will be known if not prosecuted. I'd like to think it might help us to get closer to the truth.

    I'll begin. Please understand that my educated guess is just that. The thing I'm most convinced about is that JBR was standing, or sitting, in a room without carpet when she was felled. But since I'm asking for an educated guess, I'm going to say she was in the basement laundry room. If the room was carpeted, then, I withdraw my pick. If someone knows, or has a picture of that room, please set me straight one way or another. Here's why I pick the basement laundry room.

    1. The golf clubs were in the basement.

    2. The dust and lint, on JBR's feet, indicates to me that the last floor she stood on was linoleum, tile or wood and it was dirty. The basement was messy and filthy with one broken window. Laundry rooms are dusty and linty especially if they are not cleaned and, from what I've seen, that basement was filthy. I have every reason to believe that basement laundry room had a dirty floor.

    3. I read somewhere, and can't remember (please someone enlighten me) that LE found pictures in that laundry room basement...and quizzed Patsy about why they would be seemed to me that there was something not quite right about these pictures. It makes me think that maybe this was a place where the kids might've hid to do things they wouldn't want adults to see.

    4. We know for sure that train tracks were in the basement.

    This is the best I can do right now with the information I have in my mind. If there were golf clubs upstairs, or if the basement laundry was carpeted, I would probably pick another room.
  2. heymom

    heymom Member

    Great thread idea, Learnin.

    I wonder if she wasn't struck right there in the room in which she was eventually placed, dead, wrapped in a blanket.

    There were wrapped Christmas presents in that room, some of which had been partially unwrapped. The motive for the strike?

    It was a dirty room, so that may be where the dust and lint came from (have we verified that the autopsy report mentioned that?).

    The golf clubs were nearby. So were pieces of the train track.

    I wondered before if she had been dragged to where the paint brush tote was, but maybe she was dragged OUT or carried out of the wine cellar and placed on the carpet just outside. And then when the staging or torturing was finished, she was put back into that room.

    I do believe that most of what happened to JonBenet happened that night in the basement, apart from eating the pineapple.
  3. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I believe the evidence says JonBenet was struck in the basement where there was not only a bag of golf clubs, but also loose golf clubs that were handy.

    The train tracks, that she was apparently prodded with to see if she were dead or alive, are in the basement.

    The lint and dust on JonBenet's feet would have most probably come from an uncarpeted floor, such as the basement that was filthy and a disorganized mess. Golf clubs would not have been in other uncarpeted areas such as an upstairs bathroom or the kitchen, and since LHP cleaned those areas every week, but not the basement, they wouldn't have had the greater amount of lint and dust in the basement. Even the tiny piece of green plastic that looked like Christmas garland, which was taken from JonBenet's hair at autopsy, could have easily come from the basement floor because all theRamsey Christmas trees and decorations were stored down there.

    If the pillow and white blanket were retrieved to lay JonBenet's head on and cover her up, respectively, during the 90-minute gap between the head blow and the ligature strangulation, then that explains the tiny bit of blood of JonBenet's blood on her pillow. The Barbie-doll nightgown may have been in the dryer with the white blanket (because it does not look like it came off the bed that night), and that may be how the small amount of JonBenet's blood also got on it.

    When it was decided to use the ligature, JonBenet was put on her stomach, and the pillow was removed. It was probably taken back upstairs and tossed onto the foot of her bed where it remained until photographed by the BPD. The blanket was placed on the floor of the "wine celler", and JonBenet was placed on it after the ligature strangulation on the carpet outside the door of the "wine cellar." It was then wrapped around JonBenet's lower body, papoose-like.

    Except for the writing of the ransom note, I believe the initial head injury, the ligature strangulation and the staging of the crime scene all happened in the basement.
  4. Karen

    Karen Member

    I think she was hit in the basement train room or in close proximity of the wine cellar where the gifts were, but in the basement.

    I'm considering the idea that when she was found or shown to Patsy by Burke, Patsy then summoned John and he may have tried to revive her somehow , shaking her?, and when he could not then picked her up and carried her up to her bedroom and laid her on her bed. Perhaps at that time a decision was made that she couldn't be saved and Burke had to be protected. Maybe on her bed is where the cleaning up and redressing was done.(Have we ever figured that one out?)
    ( Patsy did say she put those longjohns on her while she was asleep on her bed. Could that be a "Patsy half-truth?" I also think the size 12s were in Jonbenets drawer at that time and John probably reached in and just grabbed a pair of underwear. Maybe that they were Wednesday's could just be coincidence or maybe that was part of the staging and he purposely sought those out.(??) )
    Perhaps at that time the white blanket was removed from the dryer and she was wrapped up in it and carried back down to the basement. Then at the entrance to the wine cellar on the carpet the blanket was removed and she was laid down on her stomach, the cord around her neck was applied. After that she may have been moved into the wine cellar to conceal her. The cord around her wrists was obviously done when she was face up so I think that was applied after she was laid in the wine cellar.
    I don't think Patsy applied the cords but I do think she was the one who went and retrieved it from where ever she kept it and she may have even put it in her pocket because her hands were full with something else.
    Of course all of this is just running scenarios through my mind and trying to put myself there in Patsys place that night. There has to be a reason her jacket fibers were entwined in that garrote and since I don't think she's the one who applied it they must have gotten there during some kind of transfer/handoff of the cord.
    Is there a picture of the sweater jacket she was wearing that night? Seems like I've seen one and it had little pockets.
  5. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I don't believe those oversized, size 12 panties were in JonBenet's bedroom drawer for the simple reason they were supposed to be a gift for JonBenet's older cousin, Jennifer Davis (Polly's daughter). Patsy mentions buying some Bloomies for Jennifer while in NYC, and since Jennifer was several years older than JonBenet, it makes sense she would wear a size 12. JonBenet's normal size at that age and weight would have been a size 6. There is no way on earth JonBenet could have worn those huge size 12s because they wouldn't have stayed up, and worse, they would have "bunched up" in her pants or long-johns.

    This is another reason I believe the staging happened in the basement. There were wrapped and unwrapped gifts in the basement, and Jennifer's present of Bloomies underwear could have been one of them. We KNOW the oversized Bloomies were unwashed, straight out of the package. They wouldn't have been some of the laundered panties located in JonBenet's bathroom drawer where Patsy said JonBenet's underwear was kept.

  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm still torn between the flashlight and the golf club. I still have a picture of JonBenét eating pineapple at the kitchen table. Yes cynic and otg's contribution relating to the golf club is quite an eye opener, but I'm still seeing these two children at the table arguing about anything. It had been a tiring day for them. Burke knew where the flashlight was and he picks it up and whacks JonBenét still sitting at the table - right on the Frankfurt plane as otg just stated.

    I do remember seeing golf clubs in a box as a Christmas gift recently; therefore they may still have been upstairs, and John and Burke could have been playing with the club on the carpet, and this was still close at hand and knowing where it was he went for it and came up behind her at the table and because she is still sitting, he hits her right on the Frankfurt plane.

    I have to eliminate one, and before your thread is finished Learnin, I shall try and come to terms with this.
  7. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Good thoughts, everyone. At the present, there seems to be a concensus that the blow was struck in the basement.
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm still thinking the children's gifts were still where the Christmas tree was, upstairs, Learnin! Still holding their attention and then they went for the pineapple (?).
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2012
  9. heymom

    heymom Member

    There were other gifts wrapped in the room where JonBenet was found, Elle. They had the paper peeled away from them. Now, granted, that was likely also where the Bloomies package was, and whoever looked for the panties may have unwrapped a couple of other packages before the Bloomies were found, but I'm thinking the lure of unwrapped presents is what drew the 2 kids down to the cellar in the first place. Maybe Burke went down first and started unwrapping the presents, and then JonBenet found him and said she would tell. She turned around, started to leave - he runs after her - maybe grabs her shirt from behind, picks up a golf club and WHACK - hits her on the head. She falls. He waits to see if she gets back up. She doesn't. He gets a train track piece, pokes her with it. Pokes her in another spot. She still doesn't move. He goes and gets Mommy and the night is spent both mourning for their lost child and working to protect the still living one.
  10. Nickii

    Nickii Member

    I also believe that the blow to the head happened in the basement. And I also think that maybe the door to the Wine Cellar was open for whatever reason. I do not believe that the R’s were so neat in closing doors in that filthy basement. I am scratching my head and think to whom the partially wrapped presents belong. Maybe there were for Melinda, Melindas boyfriend and JAR for the Christmas in Charlevoix and they had not been retrieved upstairs! Maybe Burke an JB were in that room because they were curious and then the drama happened….
  11. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    This is what I see happening, too. I'm not sure if Burke went to get Patsy or she happened to still be up and heard enough of a commotion that she came downstairs. Actually, I do think Patsy was still up - no doubt, getting things ready for the trip then next day. I don't think she ever went to bed that night.
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    Maybe this is where the new golf clubs were (?). Koldkase posted the photos. Maybe they were for his birthday on the 27th January. I think KK mentioned this too. Can you confirm this KK if you're reading this post?

    I know like the rest of you, I was impressed with cynic's photos of the two different impressions of the golf club and the flashlight, plus the Frankfurt plane explanation of otg's and I do want to think it through carefully, but I'm not ready yet!
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    No way could Patsy have gone to bed and be a big part of this crime cover-up Pearlsim! She needed all those hours for the writing of the ransom note etc. etc. etc.

    Were the new golf clubs ever checked out, I wonder (?).
  14. Karen

    Karen Member

    1. I don't see nor have I heard about any fully unwrapped present that was suppose to go to Jenny in Atlanta. All I see and hear about are partially unwrapped presents in the basement, maybe some for Burkes birthday, maybe some going to Atlanta. A partially unwrapped present is not going to yeild forth a package of panties .In order to have gotten into a present meant for Jenny in Atlanta there would have to be a fully unwrapped and opened up box in the wine cellar. And we've never heard of one.

    2. Something happened either in conjunction with the head blow for Patsy to think it and treat it as not merely an accident. I believe an accident she would have called 911 over. There is a reason 911 wasn't called and it has to be because of something Patsy witnessed at the time of the accident. I don't believe she would not have called 911 because she knew of sexual abuse. She took Jonbenet to the doctor way too many times for me to believe that. And yes, I know JB was never examined "down there", but what would Patsy have said or done faced with that prospect? Would she have said no because she wouldn't want eveidence of abuse found? That could be easily done. So IMO there is some reason Patsy didn't call 911 when Jonebent was found or shown to her and instead did a 180 and staged a murder. What did she see at that time?
  15. heymom

    heymom Member

    Patsy knew where the the Bloomies were, so she could have either handed them to John or opened the package and taken out the correct day's underwear and then slipped the rest back. It would take a little finessing but that is the kind of detail I would expect from Patsy - but then, the question remains...Why not just go back upstairs and get JonBenet's own underwear from her drawer? Why go to all that trouble to put JonBenet in underwear 2 sizes too big for her?

    As for Patsy not calling 911, I do think it's likely that she knew of the abuse of JonBenet, and was trying to protect or save the person who did it. Maybe John told her that if they called 911, JonBenet would be examined thoroughly because of it being a domestic accident or done by her brother. Or maybe they were afraid Burke would confess. I think the scenario that someone brought up - that Patsy and John wanted Burke to think someone had kidnapped JonBenet AFTER he struck her, so he wouldn't feel guilty and responsible, but could let go of his part of her death - is quite likely. Once they had decided to protect Burke, then all the rest of the cover-up makes sense, even the sudden plans to fly to Atlanta. If they were out of the state, they'd have a lot more time to get their stories straight and keep Burke from talking to anyone, and get more lawyering done.

    Maybe Patsy put John up to the cover-up - I mean, I can see Patsy going hysterical and begging John not to call the authorities because "Burke didn't mean to do it!" After all, although John said that they weren't angry at the killer, he did use the term "monster" a few times, so I think he really was angry at Burke but couldn't let his emotions mess up the scene that they had created. Thus also the anger at Burke's question, "We're not talking to YOU!" heard in the background of the 911 phone call.

    I wonder what sort of relationship John has had with Burke, all these years in between....
  16. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    The reason we've never "heard" of one is because the package of size 12 panties wasn't there by the time investigators arrived.

    The package of panties, missing the Wednesday pair, wasn't turned over to Boulder LE until more than FIVE YEARS LATER after the Ramseys had moved to Atlanta.

    "It was reported in mid-2003 that "investigators never even asked to see the other panties in the matching set her mother bought her (though the DA's office now has them, Wood says)." (Clay Evans, "We're Failing JonBenet" Boulder Daily Camera, June 15, 2003)

    Patsy claimed the oversized Bloomies package was also kept in JonBenet's bathroom drawer, but we know Patsy lied a lot, and if it was there, why didn't investigators find it on December 26th & 27th? In addition, if the package of Bloomies really was in the basement, along with other Christmas presents (that didn't get mailed in time), it would make sense why Patsy would say they were in JonBenet's bathroom drawer. Patsy was trying her best to keep everything about that night upstairs. IMHO, it was another one of Patsy's efforts at misdirection away from the truth.


    August 2000 Patsy Ramsey Atlanta Interview

    1 Q. The underwear that she was
    2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
    3 know where they come from as far as what
    4 store?
    5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
    6 Q. Who purchased those?
    7 A. I did.
    8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
    9 them?
    10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.


    22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
    23 package of the -- they came in a package of
    24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
    25 I think I bought a package to give to my

    1 niece.
    2 Q. Which niece was that?
    3 A. Jenny Davis.
    4 Q. They came in, if you recall, do
    5 you remember that they come in kind of a
    6 plastic see-through plastic container.
    7 A. Right.
    8 Q. They are rolled up?
    9 A. Yes.
    10 Q. So if I understand you correctly,
    11 you bought one package for Jenny Davis, your
    12 niece, and one for JonBenet?



    11 Q. And I will just state a fact
    12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
    13 taken out of, by the police, out of
    14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
    15 that where she kept -

    16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
    17 Q. -- where you were describing that
    18 they were just put in that drawer?
    19 A. Yes.
    20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
    21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

    22 Would that have been about the size pair of
    23 panties that she wore when she was six years
    24 old?
    25 A. I would say more like six to

    1 eight. There were probably some in there
    2 that were too small.
    3 Q. Okay. But not size 12 to 14?
    4 A. Not typically, no.

  17. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Because the size 12 Bloomies were already downstairs in the basement, along with other presents for extended family members. When they re-dressed JonBenet, they probably weren't thinking about how much bigger the unlaundered size 12 panties would be. Cotton panties shrink when they are washed, and I'm sure John and Patsy weren't thinking of such details when they were trying to stage the crime scene. I believe they were more interested in putting JonBenet in Wednesday panties, like the ones she HAD been wearing, than the correct size.

    Looking back, it seems ludicrous to us, but at the time, they were just trying to save Burke and their family reputation. Remember, it wasn't just JonBenet's death they were having to cover-up, but also her previous molestation.

    From private reports it's very distant and superficial.
  18. wombat

    wombat Member

    Excellent. Also, IMO this explains why the Hi-Tek shoe impression was on the wine cellar floor. JB would have gone to bed before Burke, or at least been dressed for bed before him. Burke was nine and certainly dressed himself for bed. So, pretended to his parents he was going to bed, and then he snuck downstairs with his shoes still on, and started messing with the presents that were on hold for the "second Christmas" in Charlevoix. JB, with no slippers, followed him; maybe she already knew about the presents in the wine cellar, maybe not. She could easily have said "I'm telling" and get whacked over the head.
  19. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I had wondered the same thing in an earlier post:


    It could be that JonBenet went to sleep in the other twin bed in Burke's room after she accidentally wet her bed, and when she didn't find Burke there, she went downstairs and followed him to the basement. It's also possible JonBenet found Burke opening his birthday presents early, and threatened to tell, or they got into a fight about some of the toys. They were both most likely exhausted from getting up early for Christmas, and being on the go all day long, as well as excited about the trip to Charlevoix the next morning. Tempers may have frayed.


    The trigger for Burke's rage could have been something "small." Isn't that what it seems the most horrendous family fights are about? The little things?
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Elle, you've mentioned in several posts that there were new golf clubs given as a Christmas present, but I cannot find a reference to that or a photo of golf clubs in a box. Can you help me out? Where did you read about there being a new set of golf clubs for a Christmas present?

    Thanks in advance.
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