In which room do you think the head blow occurred?

Cynic, you are a treasure.

 

Funny. I've been re-reading and re-viewing everything sinceI finished the Kolar book. I am absolutely stunned, again, by the time they were on Larry King in 2004 and Our Fearless Leader Tricia called in to ask about the JonBenet "foundation." John lies about five different ways in his response, and Patsy vomits out a complete pile of BS about some donaton and JonBenet and Burke being camp stars.

True talent on display:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlC5kSQcSE

 

Yes, PR said JB was sick Christmas day and she spent most of the time
in her room. PR said JB didn't get to ride her bike. When they were leaving
for the whites, JB was wanting JR to let her ride her bike around the block.
JR, said he regretted that he didn't let her.
PR, said they donated her bike to charity and she never got to ride it.
[Quote from interview] This is just one of the interviews. I don't know why
this story was changed.

Are there any oldies from the 70's on here that recall things that are not talked about today?
brenk

 

No, I read that too. But, I wasn't referring to the book.
brenk :cheerful:

 

The way I read Haney's questions to Patsy regarding the blood on JB's pillowcase was he was looking for ANOTHER explanation about how it got there, when, etc.

He went into great detail with Patsy when discussing this blood on the pillowcase, trying to pin Patsy down as to when the sheets had last been changed.

It appeared to me--and I'm not expert, so I'm just guessing--that Haney was trying to nail down the time frame for when the blood got on the pillowcase and Patsy's story about HOW that blood got there. Because this was a murder investigation in which the child had her skull cracked in half and was strangled to death, I think Haney was attempting to lock in when and how the blood got there.

The fact that HANEY asked Patsy if JB had nosebleeds seemed to indicate the blood was from her nose/mucous. That seems logical to me, at any rate.

What I wonder about that pillowcase is this: did it have other evidence on it, like fibers from carpet or from the ligature or Patsy's clothing? What if it had that mold from the cellar room on it? Of course, I'm just saying "for instance" because we have no idea what else, if anything, was found on it besides the topic of a nosebleed in Patsy's DA interview.

But the pillow was found at the foot of the bed, which I think we all can agree isn't the usual place for a pillow, though many explanations are possible. Patsy said it was "odd," but of course she would, as it is, and nothing Patsy said can be taken at face value.

I did think about the cord fiber consistent with the ligature which the Ramseys alleged (in the paperback release of DOI) was found in JB's bed. I wonder if perhaps that fiber got on the pillow somewhere else and then was transferred to the bed, if the pillow was brought back and tossed there.

Of course, all speculation.

 

There are a lot of elements in the area of JB's room, the laundry outside her room, and in JAR's room/bathroom, which might imply a frantic search for something that night. Drawers were left open in JB's room and bathroom; also in JAR's bathroom. Pull-ups were left hanging out of the laundry area cabinet, where Burke's Swiss knife had been hidden by the maid--and at least one Swiss knife like it was found in the basement on a counter near the cellar room door and/or in the cellar room itself, though I can't actually say which as we've heard both. Patsy said at one point that Burke had two, if I'm remembering correctly, so who knows? A kitchen paring knife had been left on a laundry machine in the area near JB's bedroom, as well.

As we know, Patsy's housekeeping habits were so abysmal, we can't say if this was just usual disarray present in the home, or if it in fact came from a disorganized, panicked mind that night. There were many vhs videotapes lying in the floor in JAR's room, as well--it's a shocker that Smit didn't propose the Intruder watched movies while he hung out under the bed.

Then there were all the dirty, soiled pieces of clothing on the floors, the bathroom vanity top, the disgusting, soiled candies, and bedclothing reeking of urine.

And this family had a maid. Which brings me to ask, if JB's sheets had urine on them on Dec. 23rd, when the maid was asked to help prepare for the hastily planned Christmas party, wouldn't she have changed them? I would think so. Which means they weren't wet before the night of the 23rd, leaving a window of three nights when they were soiled: 23rd, 24th, or 25th?

So I guess I can't yet rule out the head blow happening on the second floor, in or near JB's room.

In addition, there was also playroom nearby on that floor. It was a place the kids played and could have been where the altercation took place, as well. That might explain running to JB's room for her pillow and maybe taking the blanket out of the dryer in the nearby laundry area.

I guess I'm just not finding it logical that Burke or even the parents would have run back upstairs to get the pillow from JB's bed and "her" blanket, as well, when there were pillows all around the living areas, surely on the couches were throws for covering in the cold Colorado winters, etc.

Equally, it seems if she'd been bludgeoned in Burke's room, his pillows were right there.

If her own pillow were taken to put under her head--causing the a blood-tinged mucous to drip or smear onto it--I'm thinking it would be more logical the head blow happened near her room.

Of course--speculation. They could have run around the house five times looking for a pillow and blanket for all I know.

 

Patsy was a talented actor. Remember, she won state-wide and even placed high nationally in dramatic intepretation competitions in high school. She also won scholarship money for her dramatic monologue in the Miss American pageant.

Every time I hear her on the 911 call, I think she must have "prepared" well to come across as she did. I can see her running in place, then breathlessly making the call. Believe me, she knew plenty of techniques to use, and she had the skills.

In a movie that was playing in Boulder that Christmas, Ransom, which JAR even commented to LE was about a man JUST LIKE HIS FATHER, the mother of the kidnap victim at one points starts hyperventilating and vomiting. I'm not making this up! I always think about Patsy when I see that scene and wonder if she saw the movie that December--it was about a family JUST LIKE THEIRS, after all. It was a hit movie, too.

And I find her "Lazarus" performance over JB's body in the living room truly classic Patsy. But to me, these are false notes in her repertoire; I find them all unbelievable in the face of the evidence.

The one performance she gave which I do find impressive was her CNN appearance with JR on Jan. 1st. I say impressive because I think her "medications" were kicking in to a level they didn't anticipate, and how she held it together while that stoned really showed me the will of that woman at work. "Hold your babies close" was as false as the rest, but staying out of the floor was a feat of true strength. :takeabow:

JMO, of course.

 

Your thoughts, ideas, and info are so interesting and helpful. I'm reading them all, but I'm just jumping in, though not quoting everyone for time's sake. (Sorry for my always too long replies, as well.)

Back to the thread topic of where the head blow occurred: if JB was felled by Burke AND he also strangled her, they had to be close to the paint tray, or at least in the basement, I'm thinking, as I don't believe he could have carried her there. Dragging is arguable, but not down stairs, as her body would have shown other evidence of injury from that, I believe.

Dragging her on a blanket...I'm not sure a near 10 yr. old would have thought of that, as opposed to just taking whatever he needed from the paint tray to her comatose body elsewhere, instead.

I keep trying to put this in perspective in the environment and circumstances. For example, it's hard for me to imagine doing the deeds by the paint tray--in the dark.

Another circumstance I struggle to remember: it had been a very long Christmas Day, with the children getting up before sunrise for Santa's gifts; playing the morning and afternoon with neighboring kids and toys; going to the White's for another party with more kids; home around 9 pm, with a plane trip set for early the next morning.

So it's very hard for me to believe either of these children would have gone to bed, then awakened an hour or two later and gone to the basement to play. Of course anything is possible, but they all had to be exhausted and I'd think getting the kids--and themselves--to bed would have been priority number one for Patsy and JR.

So the pineapple on the table--was that from the afternoon, maybe Patsy putting it out for Burke since she didn't seem to prepare a lunch for them? Or perhaps she put it out for a quick snack before bed? But would she give Burke tea before bed, with bedwetting problems so troublesome? At any rate, maybe JB grabbed a bite or two on her way to bed?

I think this pineapple might also be evidence which Kolar notes as bringing the kids into the kitchen area at some point that night: pineapple in JB's system; Burke's fingerprints on the bowl and glass.

So at what point would the parents have said get to bed? And at what time would they have done so, fallen asleep or not, and then later gotten back up? (I'm not considering the Ramseys' own stories, inconsistent at best.)

Other things that bother me about Burke doing all the deeds in the basement:

As has been pointed out many times, Burke would have to have stood on a chair to unlatch the cellar door and then latch it again. Of course that's possible; it just seems like a lot for a child his age to think about in the course of this complex abuse and death.

If the head blow didn't occur near or at the paint tray, then perhaps it took place in the train room and she was dragged from there? The evidence on her clothing, under the armpits, is consistent with someone grasping her there with lots of fibers, hairs, etc., on his/her hands. (Bonita Papers) Could that have been from dragging her that way?

Of maybe that evidence was from handling many things in the basement in the course of these acts, turning the child's body over, staging it, lifting it, or even from JR picking her up and bringing her up the stairs that afternoon?

So if the head blow took place somewhere in the basement, perhaps Burke could have managed the strangulation an hour and a half or so later by the paint tray.

But if the head blow didn't happen in the basement, then I'm going to be pretty sure Burke was not the one who made the ligature and strangled her.

Okay, I'm all thought out.

 

You are assuming that the door to the wine cellar was latched in the first place. I'm not making that assumption. It was latched once JonBenet's body was in there, at some point before LE got to the house. But it could have been open before that.

Especially if one or both of the kids had been down there looking for extra presents, or a present that one of them thought he/she was going to get but didn't.

Picture Burke going downstairs, turning on lights as he goes (maybe). He knows his mom hides stuff in the wine cellar, so he drags a stool over and unlatches the door, turns on the light and goes in, starts rifling through the presents. JonBenet follows him downstairs, finds him opening the presents, says she's going to tell. He grabs her by the arm or the hair. She may have yelled at that point, running from the room. He grabs a golf club, chases her. Maybe she stumbles and falls, or maybe she sees him swing and crouches down. However she lowers her head, he whacks her with the club. Down she goes. He stands there for a few minutes, waiting to see if she gets back up. She doesn't. He drops the club. He picks up the train track and pokes her with it (not sure if he does this through her shirt, probably). She doesn't rouse. He decides to do other stuff to her, maybe she will wake up, or if she doesn't, it's a game he's wanted to play for a long time.

At no point has the wine cellar door been re-latched.

Remember that Burke is not a normal 10 year old boy.

 

I'll second that!

 

Did you miss the new bulletin KK? We are just allowed to write two paragraphs. What are you going to do now?

 

Why drag a stool over when there was a perfectly good suitcase nearby? :floor:


I agree with you, heymom, on the latch not necessarily being locked in the first place. But I don't see few remaining unopened presents as being the big attraction or temptation for the kids that others do. Most of the kids' big presents had already been opened, and most of the few remaining were probably thought to be for others they would be seeing during the holidays. I just don't think the reward of finding out about something early would be worth the risk of getting caught. It was a long day -- full of gift opening, playing, visiting. I don't think that would keep either of them up beyond bedtime.

Also, that scenario also leaves out the sexual aspect (which I do think would be motivation enough for staying up late). This is of course unless you subscribe to the theory of that being some sort of cover-up for prior molestations (which I don't).

 

Can someone please direct me to the interview (or was it in ST's book?) where the basement laundry room is discussed. It seems to me that someone was asking PR if the children played down there because there were pictures found in that room. Does anyone know where I can find that interview?

 

No, I certainly do NOT subscribe to that theory. You are correct that the continuing sexual exploration could also have been a motivation for being in the basement. In fact, it's a more likely scenario, and even more reason for Burke to have panicked and hit JonBenet so she wouldn't run away and tell.

Either way, it puts the action mainly in the basement. I wonder why Chief Kolar may not believe the actual head blow was struck there?? I wish I could see the case files! I know I'm not alone in that.

 

Don't know if this one will do, Learnin, but there is a lot of good information here.

So much information comes up Learnin. Hopefully someone will find the right one! Just delete what you don't want.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682512/The%20Basement

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-basement.htm

July 21, 1998 Linda Wilcox (former Ramsey housekeeper) interview on Peter Boyles Show

Peter Boyles: So much talk about the so-called "secret room," the little room, the room that hardly anyone knew. Linda Hoffman-Pugh, who replaced you, once said that she didn't know the room was there. What about the room where the little girl's body was found?

Linda Wilcox: It's a wine cellar, that's what it was built as. It has no windows, I mean, it was a wine cellar. The last time I was in that room, there was nothing in it, it was bare. It wasn't used for storage, it wasn't used for anything. It was very damp, anything you put in there got kinda moldy, nothing was in that room. It wasn't necessarily hidden but it wasn't in plain view. And the room leading to it was the boiler room. It was kind of open but it was very dark. No one was ever down there much except maybe Burke. Burke was there occasionally. He had his train set down there. He was the only one who played down there. Patsy hardly ever went down there. She'd go down to get whatever she needed, she didn't like to go down there. It freaked JonBenet out. It was cold, it was damp, it was cluttered, it was dark. Pretty much the household help were the only ones who went down there. In fact, I'm the one who discovered the safe. Patsy didn't know it was there. One day, it was Suzanne, myself, Nedra and Patsy."

Peter Boyles: "Suzanne was the nanny?"

Linda Wilcox: Yes, and the kids were in one of the other rooms playing. There had been a refrigerator down there. We were cleaning it out and doing things and I was, the floor leading to that room is linoleum and I was cleaning it by hand and I was backing myself out of the room so I wouldn't track over what I had cleaned. And I was backing myself into the wine cellar, the vacuum was behind me as I backed into the wine cellar. When I saw the safe on the floor and I go, hey did you know that there was a safe in here? It was covered with chips and paint and it hadn't been touched in a long time and I actually cleaned it off. And Patsy goes, 'Nah, I didn't know, John probably knows. Maybe he should, you know, drill it out sometime." As far as I know it was never used, there was never anything in it. There was no sign that it had been touched in years when I found it.

 

That was one of the police interviews of Patsy. I'll see if I can find it.

 

I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply theorizing what may or may not have been part of the events of that night. And the cellar door was latched that morning, according to sources who went down there early on. Also we have a crime scene photo taken when the body was still in the cellar room, unbeknownst to LE.

It would seem logical, to me, anyway, for a parent to latch the door where presents for Burke were hidden. Especially since he played down there and there were other children playing down there, as well. At least, Patsy said so, and she may have lied, but why lie about that?

We see the presents in the crime scene photo, and Patsy was asked about that, so the photo appears to be valid.

But maybe the door wasn't latched. I have no way of knowing. I was just thinking through various scenarios.

 

No, I didn't get that memo.

Guess it's time for me to retire. :yay:

 

21 THOMAS HANEY: Did you take some
22 photographs of JonBenet in the basement laundry
23 room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: You had presents in
0186
1 the basement laundry room, right?
2 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
3 TRIP DeMUTH: So you wrapped
4 presents in the basement laundry room, right?
5 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
6 TRIP DeMUTH: So you were down in
7 the basement laundry room pretty often?
8 PATSY RAMSEY: Depending on what
9 time of year it was, yeah, uh-hum.
10 TRIP DeMUTH: And do you remember
11 photographs being -- photographs of JonBenet
12 being in there?
13 PATSY RAMSEY: Taken of her in the
14 laundry room?
15 TRIP DeMUTH: No, no. Photographs
16 of her located in the laundry room?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, in the laundry
18 room, oh. I don't know, there was a bunch of
19 stuff, I mean wrapping stuff and everything. I
20 don't remember any photographs.
21 TRIP DeMUTH: Is there any reason
22 why there would be photographs of JonBenet
23 located in the laundry room?
24 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Were there --
25 I mean, did somebody find them there?
0187
1 TRIP DeMUTH: If there were, would
2 that be out of place for you?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: It would seem to be
4 out of place. I kept wrapping materials and
5 sometimes I worked, wrapping station, Christmas
6 paper and --
7 TRIP DeMUTH: Would -- who else had
8 access to the laundry room, who else would go in
9 there? I know everybody would have access, but
10 who else would use it? Would the boys play in
11 there? Would John go down there?
12 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean anybody
13 could, but I mean the boys could come down and
14 go in the train room, we had the train set up.
15 In the far back in through there, you know. Not
16 in the laundry, really, area.
17 TRIP DeMUTH: Did anybody besides
18 you use that laundry room?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Sometimes Linda
20 would wash, if we were washing comforters or
21 something, because those were big heavy-duty
22 laundry machines, she'd take the things in
23 there, rugs and things, and wash them down
24 there.
25 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay.
0188
1 THOMAS HANEY: So you don't recall
2 taking a photo of her down there?
3 PATSY RAMSEY: (Shaking head.)
4 THOMAS HANEY: If she was doing
5 something really cutesy or something, would you
6 maybe run and get the camera, take one of her?
7 PATSY RAMSEY: Of her in the
8 laundry room?
9 THOMAS HANEY: Uh-hum.
10 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

Patsy Ramsey BDA interview - June 23, 1998

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9945

 

Thanks for these links, Elle.