James Kolar's new book! It's what we have been waiting for! Daily Beast article!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Moab, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    So glad to see you here, otg.

    Everyone, please welcome our newest member, an excellent debater at WS who always has very good info and points. :wave:

    I have to say this part of the discussion always frustrates me. I'm not feeling we got that much further on it in Kolar's book, either, as we've had the autopsy for years.

    I really don't agree with Dr. Spitz's theory this was a bruise caused by twisting of the turtleneck, though I know many do, including Thomas.

    I just find it too coincidental that other autopsy photos of strangulation-by-ligature victims have similar bruising in the same place. I haven't seen any others of a child, though, but my thinking is that the reason it's so severe on JB is that her neck was so tiny and the type of cord used, pulled from behind, put so much pressure dragging across her skin resulted in the large bruise because of the actual "triangulation" of the "carotid triangle," as you say, with the neck bones and muscles.

    But I certainly can be wrong.

    Also, I wonder if Kolar was accepting Smit's description of those "marks" on her neck as being from her fingernails, because I don't quite see how that would work if she was already unconscious when it was applied.
  2. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    "To my mind, the reason that 911 wasn't called that night is that at least 2 people in the house (not including JonBenet) knew about her prior sexual abuse."

    I wouldn't argue this point because you could surely be right. In fact, I've thought, for a long time, that this is the reason why the stager did not call 911 after the head wound. I'll just give my reason for believing, now, that it could be for a different reason.

    If the stager believed the prior sexual abuse (plus the new vaginal wound) would be discovered, why clean up the blood from the wound? It could be that
    the stager did not want JBR to be found in a messy condition. However, if the stager knew the vaginal trauma would be discovered, why not mention something sexual in nature while writing the ransom note? The ransom note, written by the stager, does not allude to anything sexual in nature. The ransom note could have said, "If you call the police, it will end up in the sexual abuse of your daughter and her beheading."

    Maybe (and I emphasize maybe) the amateurism of the stager led he or she to believe the vaginal trauma could go undiscovered and only thought the neck abrasions (or bruising) would have to be explained, thus the ligature... Just an opinion that could very well be wrong.
  3. Karen

    Karen Member

    I took it as meaning fingernails while the shirt neck was being twisted, not when the garrote was applied.
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    Are you saying that you believe that the perpetrator continued to abuse her sexually after he choked her with the cord? I wondered about that possibility too, but why would there not be fingerprints all over that paintbrush handle? I doubt if the Ramsey I consider to be #1 suspect would have put on gloves, although I suppose anything is possible. There is a reference to some new information about that in Kolar's book, I won't add a spoiler here, though.

    And the prior abuse would not have been done by the intruder in any case, so if it was recorded in the autopsy, an inquiry would have been done. Obviously a stranger would have had no previous access to JonBenet to abuse her. Of course the Ramseys threw so many of their friends, neighbors and employees under the bus, and possibly implied they HAD had access to JonBenet, I can see how investigators might get confused.
  5. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Imo the lower neck abrasion could have been the result of several attempts by the stager of the scene to tie the ligature around the neck of the victim already in a near-death coma from the head wound.
    Maybe the stager used the hemp rope first but found it too 'coarse' to fit its purpose (which would explain the fibers from the hemp rope that were found in JonBenet's bed).

    Indeed it doesn't mesh with Kolar being so firm about the head blow having occurred first, and about 90 minutes before the time of death.
    It looks like he was accepting Smith's description here without going over it himself.

    Jmpo: they don't look like fingernail marks to me, but more like petechiae caused by broken blood vessels.
  6. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Do we know if there was any blood traces found in the urine stain on the carpet?
    I would assume this stain was scanned with the ultraviolet light (or whatever they use) to determine if blood is present? At this point I'm just kind of thinking out loud.
  7. Learnin

    Learnin Member


    1. Do we know exactly where the blood was located that was wiped off JBR's thigh?

    2. If she was lying on her back, how did the blood get on her thigh?

    Would this indicate she was lying on her side when assaulted?
  8. heymom

    heymom Member

    AFAIK, there was no blood mixed in the urine found on the carpet. But it was never stated in print.

    We don't know where the blood might have been because it was wiped off. It was a trace amount. The blood may have smeared onto her thigh as the paintbrush was withdrawn from her vagina.

    I believe she was lying on her stomach, supine, when she was killed and when she was assaulted. When her bladder released, the urine went to the front of her long johns and onto the carpeting.
  9. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Thanks. I suppose the location of the thigh blood spot is one of those things we still haven't heard from the police files. I wonder if Kolar would clarify it if I asked him?
  10. heymom

    heymom Member

    If you do, can you ask him about the feces-smeared box of candy? If Burke really did that, it's quite an aggressive act toward JonBenet. Also very primitive and animalistic.
  11. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    It could also be something as innocent as dropping a poop-smeared garment inadvertently on top of the candy box.
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    Yes, DeeDee I could see this happening; not positioned, but just carelessly thrown, not caring where the garment landed. Almost like "payback time"
    for Jonbenét and Patsy for all the pageant hullabaloo.
  13. Karen

    Karen Member

    I think the real question is what are Burkes poopie pj bottoms doing in Jonbenets bedroom?
  14. Elle

    Elle Member

    I didn't see Burke's name attached to the pj's Karen. I took it for granted they were JonBenet's when she crawled into his bed on a regular basis.
    I would need to see the original post. I would need to backtrack. Please post it for me, thank you!
  15. heymom

    heymom Member

    I do not believe a box of candy would be described as "smeared with feces" just from having a poopy garment dropped on top of it. You don't get smeared with something by mere contact, it takes more deliberation or active contact than that.
  16. heymom

    heymom Member

    It's in the book, Elle. There was a PJ bottom in JonBenet's room that was much too big for her, but that had poop in it. Thus, detectives surmised it belonged to Burke. I'm thinking of the description that the housekeeper gave, of finding "grapefruit-sized" excrement in JonBenet's bed at least once. Hard to believe a petite 6 year old girl would have that much fecal matter inside her.
  17. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    If I were thinking about camouflaging a stretched-out turtleneck, I'd just put it back in the drawer.

    The bedwetting-induced rage scenario is winning in my mind. There's the red turtleneck and Patsy's changing story about it, the diaper package half out of the closet and the urine-soaked sheets:

    Q. (BY MR. WOOD) Did they say they could smell urine?

    A [ Steve Thomas]. I have been told that CBI says, yes, those sheets which are still in evidence smell urine stained.

    It seems unlikely that Burke would be very upset by JonBenet's wet bed. (And why would he be up so late? JonBenet was killed around midnight.)
  18. heymom

    heymom Member

    Do you really believe that John would protect Patsy if she had done this? I mean, really? Think about it. I don't believe either of them would have protected each other, but they would have protected Burke. They were already losing one child, and if they called the ambulance, they'd lose Burke too, at least for a while, and maybe forever. I see Patsy talking John into not calling for an ambulance, once they'd found JonBenet.
  19. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Very well could have been a "bedwetting-induced rage scenario". But, I'll play the devil's advocate.

    1. Why did John continue to cover once he realized what had happened?

    2. Why jab her vagina? If it was to coverup prior abuse, then, why clean up
    the blood? The stager concocted a kidnapping scenario and the cleaning up
    of blood goes along with that scenario. I suppose the injury could have come from violent wiping which would go along with the bed wetting theory.
  20. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I think you raise the main point which argues against the bedwetting theory.
    I can't see a man protecting his wife after she just killed his daughter. I don't believe John was so attached to Patsy that he couldn't do without her.

    But, I've always left room for the possibility that Patsy had some very incriminating knowledge about John that might have ruined him if it came to light. There seemed to be some veiled threats towards John in the ransom note...."don't try to grow a brain", etc....
    icedtea4me likes this.
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