James Kolar's new book! It's what we have been waiting for! Daily Beast article!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Moab, Jul 18, 2012.

  1. Elle

    Elle Member

    This was my corrected post:
    No! my mistake heymom! I just corrected it! Sorry about that! My mind was jumping too far ahead. I was thinking hypothetically, if John Ramsey was the culprit, he didn't need a heavy object of any kind to finish off a little six year old.

    I personally feel this was an accidental death of little JonBenét Ramsey; that she had an argument with her brother at the table over whatever reason (?). It ended up with Burke losing his temper and clobbering JB with whatever was close at hand. The lamp on the kitchen counter maybe (?), or another object (?). Hypothetically, I think he may well have stormed off to his bed leaving JonBenét dying and he didn't even know it.

    Patsy Ramsey may have discovered JonBenét first thing in the morning and all hell broke loose! The false story was concocted!

    You are not alone heymom. All our heads are whirling because of this case. I am hoping James A. Skolar is our knight in shining armour!
  2. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Yes. I believe John wanted to get himself, Patsy and Burke out of Boulder because they were all possibly involved in what happened to JonBenet.

    I am still waiting on my copy of Kolar's book, but from everything I've been told privately to what I've read in interviews and on FFJ threads, there is much more evidence now available than we've previously known.

    Kolar does not give an exact scenario in his book, and he wouldn't give one when asked on Tricia's radio show. I understand why, given the legal ramifications. Kolar does say he fell off the fence on the side of there being no intruder and, therefore, the family was involved. Kolar also says the crime was not premeditated and the head injury came first, causing JonBenet to become unconscious and near death before the strangulation with the Stansport cord. It's possible the person who made the ligature did not know JonBenet was still alive as she would have been unresponsive.

    Because of Kolar's book, we now know there was agreement among doctors that JonBenet was being sexually abused before the night of her death, most probably from digital penetration, not penile. However, we do not know who was abusing JonBenet.

    Burke could have flown into a rage if JonBenet followed him downstairs into the basement and they got into a fight over playing with his new toys/presents. He hits her with something, possibly a golf club, causing the head injury.

    Over an hour later, the person who applied the ligature moves JonBenet and places her on her stomach on the piece of carpeting outside the "wine cellar" next to Patsy's paint tote. The ligature is made from a broken paint brush and Stansport cord and tied around JonBenet's neck. A pulling motion from behind lifts JonBenet's head from the floor and leaves cord marks on her neck, effectively strangling what little bit of life is left in her. Something (possibly another part of the broken paint brush) is inserted into JonBenet's vagina in hopes of covering up prior sexual abuse that might be discovered during autopsy. This may have been done before the ligature was applied, especially if the stager thought JonBenet was already dead.

    While lying on the carpet, JonBenet's bladder releases its contents at the moment of death. A urine stain was found there that confirms this. Someone then then wipes down JonBenet's legs, cleans her up and redresses her in the over-sized Bloomies underwear before wrapping her in a blacket and placing her in the wine cellar. The rest of the Stansport cord is used to make loose wrist bindings and a small piece of duct tape is placed over her mouth for staging effect. Finally, the ransom note is written.

    In my humble opinion, Burke could have inflicted the original head injury out of anger at JonBenet for a number of reasons; including playing with his new toys (he'd shown anger at that before) or maybe JonBenet telling someone about possible sexual experimentation. John "the Iceman" (as Alex Hunter called him) could have performed the ligature strangulation staging and sexual assault cover up (for either himself or Burke). Patsy may have been the one to redress JonBenet and wrap her gently in the blanket before placing her on the cold floor. Patsy then wrote the ransom note. That is something that all of LE agrees on, as mentioned in Kolar's book. I believe if John were the only one involved in JonBenet's death, Patsy would not have covered up for him. Patsy would have only written that ransom note to cover up for herself or for Burke.

    Burke may not have known about the ransom note until he heard his mother during the 911 call. After Patsy and John discovered what he'd done (inflicting a horrible head injury on JonBenet and rendering her unconscious and possibly dead), they probably told him to go to his room and stay there! Patsy and John then got busy staging the crime scene and writing the ransom note. When all was ready, Patsy made the 911 call. Burke came out of his room to ask what they had found when he heard his mom talking about a ransom note. John angrily replied, "We're not talking to you!" and Patsy immediately hung up on the dispatcher.

    Perhaps, the reason it was so difficult for LE to determine who in the family did what that night (except for Patsy writing the ransom note) is that all three of the Ramseys were involved. As Kolar said, the evidence points to a very complicated scenario, and it is complicated further by the prior sexual abuse of JonBenet before the night she died.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2012
  3. heymom

    heymom Member

    But did JonBenet wet her bed that night, and if so, how does that fit into your scenario, Cherokee?

    Maybe she wet the bed...Patsy went up to change her...as usual, leaving a mess behind...Then JonBenet was hungry so Patsy got her a snack...Maybe Burke was up too...and then Patsy left the two of them up and went back to bed? And that is when the problems began?

    Was it confirmed that JonBenet had wet the bed that night? Or did that come from hints and clues?
  4. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    From what I heard is in Kolar's book, JonBenet's bed reeked of urine.

    I think I posted this on another thread ... but we know JonBenet often went to Burke's room to sleep, either because her bed was wet or she was lonely or whatever. It's possible JonBenet and Burke decided to get up and have a snack and/or go play with their new toys. Patsy may have been busy getting ready for the trip and didn't see them sneak downstairs, or maybe she'd already gone to bed by then.

    Either way, Burke and JonBenet got into it over something, and Burke lashed out at her, hitting her on the head so hard with an object that it cracked her skull. JonBenet didn't get up, and Burke either told his parents, or he left her there, scared of what he'd done, and went up to his bed.

    I also wonder if the head injury was NOT the only blow struck by the weapon. Look at the area of bruising on JonBenet's neck. It also looks like the end of a golf club putter or small iron. What if Burke was swinging the golf club in a rage, chasing JonBenet and trying to hit her. From above her (since he was taller), and from behind her and to JonBenet's left side, Burke hit her in the neck as she tried to get away from him. JonBenet then fell down, and then Burke brought the golf club down on her head.


    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
  5. Karen

    Karen Member

    Was the bed wet, or damp? How large was the urine stain on the carpet?

    I remember hearing or reading about this urine stain a long time ago, (please don't ask me where, I don't remember) and I often wondered if Jonbenet wet the bed that night how would she have so much more urine again so soon to create a noticeable urine stain at the moment of death? I'm not questioning the urine stain, I'm questioning the bedwetting that night.

    Also I remember Patsy said in one of the interviews Jonbenet slept in Burkes room on Christmas Eve. She said she thought they were planning something, in a humorous way, like planning to stay up all night so they could get a peek at Santa or something. She slept in the other twin bed in Burkes room, not in Burkes bed with him.

    So that means if JB did not wet the bed Christmas night, those sheets were smelling of urine from the night of the 23rd!!!!! Because Jonbenet hadn't slept in her own room the following night, the 24th. The 23rd was the night of the Christmas party you will recall and of the mysterious 911 call.

    I don't believe JB ever made it to her bed Christmas night. I think she was awake when they arrived home and she walked into the house and I think she was hungry so Patsy fixed her up with the pineapple and she was eating the pineapple while Burke and JR were putting the toy model or whatever together.

    After that, well that's the $118,000.00 question, isn't it?
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    Totally off topic, but I just went to Youtube and watched the segment of Perfect Murder, Perfect Town that depicts the autopsy of JonBenet...One huge glaring problem is that they show her wearing the right size underwear, not panties 2 sizes too big for her! It would have been great if they had shown the Bloomies in 10-12, would have been obvious that she did NOT wear those panties to bed that night and why in the world would any mom put those panties on a tiny little 6 year old girl?

    Here it is

    Part 6
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Wanted to let everyone know Cherokee and I put some new photos up in the case library.

    BobC was generous enough to let us put his Ramsey house photos up, as well as Cherokee shares hers.

    Then I got some dodgy screen shots from the LE crime scene video of the Ramsey basement which Carol McKinley shared with us in her Daily Beast article last week.

    So just letting you know if you want to check them out, they're here:

    BobC's and Chero's exterior shots:


    The basement video screen captures (go to the bottom of page one and then to page two):


  8. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Many times, if a young child experiences chronic urinary tract infections, a physician will order an imaging test called a voiding cysto urethrogram (VCU).
    Urinary tract infections, in young children, can be caused by the valves, in the distal ureters, not working properly. This allows urine, from the bladder, to back up toward the kidneys thereby causing the infection.

    In order to check for this, a catheter is placed into the bladder and radiopaque dye is injected into the bladder. The bladder shows up on fluoroscopy and, if there is reflux, you can actually see the dye flowing up into the kidney (s) from the bladder.

    Obviously, anyone inserting the catheter, might observe something but a technologist is not trained to look for something like the abuse we're talking about. At any rate, Dr. Beuf probably never had reason to examine the interior of the vagina because of urinary tract infections.
  9. Elle

    Elle Member

    My apologies, folks! On reading a bit further through a google search, those 30 visits to Dr. Beuf were not all related to JonBenét's vaginal problems, but to many other normal complaints in children. Still, 30 visits appear to be a large number to me!
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 25, 2012
  10. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I can't remember if the cops ever got to see Beuf's medical records for JonBenet and it's also possible that Patsy took JonBenet to a doctor other than Beuf for the UTI. In any case, I think the official line was that JonBenet had a lot of doctor visits for respiratory infections.

    External friction could have caused JonBenet's recurrent bladder infections--or her bad wiping habits or even, I suppose, something more exotic like a valve problem. I'm inclined to think that the vaginal changes and the urinary tract problems are related. I don't know if the vaginal changes could have been caused by feces getting up there on a regular basis or if they had to have been caused by something like digital penetration. Thomas thought the vaginal changes were caused by violent wiping. Violent wiping could also precipitate bladder infections via "urethral syndrome." (I think that's what my medical book calls it.)
  11. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    My only purpose in mentioning that ureteral reflux is a common cause of pediatric urinary tract infections is:

    1. If JBR was having chronic UTI's, then, a pediatrician should have considered doing a VCU. Either a technologist, radiologist or a nurse would have performed the catheterization. I'm inclined to believe that any one of the three would have failed to notice any signs of abuse especially if they were not checking for that.

    2. Dr. Beuf, probably, would have not done a thorough vaginal examination for UTI. Therefore, his statement that he never noticed any signs of abuse are practically worthless.

    I've always thought that violent wiping (as punishment) could have explained the injuries.
  12. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    She was treated for vaginitus three times.
  13. heymom

    heymom Member

    Let's get the anatomy right. Vaginal injuries are INTERNAL, not external. One cannot be "wiped" inside. The VULVA is the external part of a female's anatomy. That CAN be wiped, but it would be very violent if it caused any injuries. I mean, the girl would be screaming and crying. A blunt trauma such as landing on a bicycle crossbar will cause bruising to the vulva, but no injury to the vagina. That takes penetration.

    The vaginal injuries that JonBenet had were NOT caused by bubble bath, UTIs, not wiping, wiping, etc. They WERE caused by penetration by something the size of a human finger, not a penis. And they happened before the night she was killed. She had been penetrated in the past because the injuries were not fresh.
  14. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    It's Thomas's theory that the vaginal changes (the pre-murder ones) were caused by violent wiping. Presumably he had some medical authority for thinking so. And they weren't characterized as "injuries" to my recollection, but as inflammation.
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I'm sure y'all have seen this, but in case you want to check it again, it has some important information about Dr. Meyer's professional determination about those injuries: go to post #19.


    I did exclude some parts of these pages out of respect for Kolar's copywrite, but I hated to because it's rather telling: the Boulder task force on child safety and abuse, called by Meyer, THE DAY OF THE AUTOPSY, to review this case...well, I may as well just quote it.

    From pages 60-61, Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet Ramsey?; by A. James Kolar

  16. heymom

    heymom Member

    Well, he was wrong. Unless someone actually stuck their finger up inside JonBenet's vagina, there was no "wiping" that could have been done inside her. Again, wiping the outside of a female can cause injuries and inflammation, but not to the vagina, which is on the interior.

    The passages from Kolar's book state pretty unequivocally that JonBenet had been penetrated but not with a penis.
  17. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    From pages 60-61, Foreign Faction: Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet Ramsey - by A. James Kolar

    "Further inspection revealed that the hymen was shriveled and retracted, a sign that JonBenét had been subjected to some type of sexual contact prior to the date of her death."


    JonBenet had evidence of previous injury to her hymen that, according to medical experts who saw the evidence, was most probably caused by digital penetration. It was their opinion that penile intrusion into the vaginal area would have caused more damage than what was seen.
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2012
  18. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I agree with y'all about the prior sexual abuse not being possible from "wiping" or a bath. Team Ramsey LOVED using that in their excuses, but it was just another red herring, IMO.

    I never understood why Thomas downplayed the autopsy findings about the sexual abuse. I always thought he had some reason for it he didn't mention. I even wondered if he simply didn't want to put all those who would automatically fall under suspicion for it in such a devastating spotlight, since there is no way to know who was in fact sexually abusing the child unless someone who does know speaks out.
  19. heymom

    heymom Member

    I guess a lot of people are freaked out by it. I mean, it's sick and disgusting, but let's face facts here, and get the truth out in the open once and for all. JonBenet Ramsey, at age 6, was technically no longer a virgin because her hymen had been penetrated repeatedly. This is horrific to contemplate, but think about this: Whoever was abusing her, may have actually thought about how to do it while staying under the radar - penile penetration would have done more obvious damage and her doctor probably would have realized what was going on. Whoever it was, he had some amount of sexual contact with her, and who knows what he made her do to him.

    Now I am saying "him," although I know that there are women who molest children too. I personally do not believe Patsy Ramsey to be that kind of woman, but at least one forum member believes that she was a multiple personality. And that one of her alters may have been abusing JonBenet. Even if she wasn't a multiple, she is still considered a suspect, or was, until she died. I do believe that Patsy knew who was molesting JonBenet, or that someone was, if not which one. I do not believe that Patsy would have been running JonBenet to the doctor every time she sneezed if Patsy were abusing her.

    Why Steve Thomas didn't discuss the abuse...well maybe his publisher told him not to go there. He ended up getting sued anyway, so what good did being cautious do him?
  20. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    I would agree totally with that.
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