JBR's 20th birthday is this week

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Moab, Aug 1, 2010.

  1. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    In 5 short days, JonBenet Ramsey would have celebrated her 20th birthday had her life not been taken away that night in 1996.

    It is why we came together as a community, and why we are still together as a community, and though we have made many many many friends within the last 14 years both on and off the forums, let's take a moment this week to remember JonBenet and why we are all still here.
  2. Driver

    Driver FFJ Senior Member

    Almost impossible to believe. And still no justice for that innocent child.
  3. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I've seen several articles about the problem of DNA contamination at crime scenes and mortuaries by investigators and lab techs. Since it seems more than likely to me that Patsey Ramsey wrote the ransom note, how did the minute amount of foreign DNA (the amount in a sneeze) get into the blood spot in JonBenet's underwear? Maybe just by someone talking over it?

    "Results show that contamination by talking in both kneeling and sitting positions occurred almost immediately (<30 seconds, but not from just one sentence) up to 69 cm from the subject. When standing, contamination could be observed up to a maximum 115 cm from the subject, and was only present in one of three repeats when talking for only 30 seconds. This article illustrates how rapidly a static person can potentially contaminate an area in front of him or herself within a laboratory or scene environment, just by talking."

    From "How long does it take a static speaking individual to contaminate the immediate environment?"

  4. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    Great post fr brown...thanks for the link!
  5. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    Speaking of JBR's birthday, it is Friday
    Rest in Peace sweet girl.
  6. Show Me

    Show Me FFJ Senior Member

    My youngest is only a few years older.

    Poor baby, to die so young and under the stress of beauty pageants and
    lessons, hair and make up. My kids had a childhood...JonBenet barely had a taste of childhood and a huge dose of adulthood. Robbed twice...of her childhood and her life.
  7. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    Hard to believe! Actually, one of my grandsons is her age; the other one a year older. I never really thought about this...

    I will always believe if the crime had been committed in Fairfax County VA, the culpret(s) would have been in jail in less than a year.
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    This is the first time I have read such frightening news relating to contamintion of a crime scene. Thank you for posting this fr. brown.
  9. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    JonBenet's body was discovered around 1pm and lay on the living room floor until the coroner got there around 8 to take a cursory look. The autopsy wasn't done until the following morning. In all that time did nobody check the body for indications of sexual assault or collect evidence from it?
  10. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    NO. No one examined the body until Mayer looked at her. He spent only about 10 minutes examining the body, and neglected to perform two standard procedures used to determine time of death. One is called a liver stab- this consists of inserting a special thermometer into the liver to determine the core body temperature at the time of the first examination of the body. This is a good tool because a body located at average room temperature loses body heat at a very predictable rate ( one degree per hour) when death has not been preceded by a high fever. It is possible to determine fairly accurately when a person died using this method. The second procedure involves withdrawing some of the vitreous fluid from the eyeballs. Potassium levels there also give an accurate indication of how long a person has been dead. In life, there is very little potassium in this fluid. After death, red blood cells break down and release a great deal of potassium in this fluid at a predictable rate. This method also is not affected by temperature.
    Mayer performed NEITHER of these tests, for reasons he has not made public and which I find inexplicable. There is simply no excuse not to have done these procedures, which take only a few minutes. Basically, all he did was pronounce her dead and note what she was wearing.
    No one but the coroner would have (or should have) touched her body anyway. Arndt was wrong to allow it and wrong to do it herself, as she also moved JB's body. In fact it was Arndt who moved her under the Christmas tree in the living room. When JR brought her up, he placed her on the floor of the foyer. But no LE would have collected evidence from the body itself. That is the coroner's job.
  11. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    Now how do you know this? I haven't been able to find anything which explicitly says that, but maybe I missed it. Please include page number or url.

    From Techniques of Crime Scene Investigation by Barry A. J. Fisher, pg 35:

    "The medical examiner-coroner's or coroner's office generally has jurisdiction over the body at the crime scene. Where this jurisdiction is in effect, the body may not be moved or searched without prior consent of the medical examiner-coroner."

    So jurisdiction over the body can change with locale and where the coroner does have jurisdiction, the body may be searched with his permission.
  12. Elle

    Elle Member

    fr brown,

    I see DeeDee has posted an accurate account for you, of Dr. Myer's ten minutes examination at 8:00 pm. Seven hours after the body was found, with plans to do the autopsy the next morning. Unbelievable! It was Christmas time and no one was in a hurry to attend to the death of this six year old girl. Something far wrong with this scene.

    Thank you for your excellent thoughts on this DeeDee. I have to keep telling myelf you were an art teacher and not a doctor when I read your posts. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who thinks this (?).
    If my memory serves me right fr.brown is a medical technician (?). I remember when he first came here there was some news about this. Seems such a long time ago now, and of course our posting has dwindled down to just a few posts now-n-then. I keeping checking in to see if something new has turned up.

    Keep up the good work you two!
  13. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I'm interested in whether or not the DNA transfers to the long johns and the underpants could have occurred after the body was found. Assuming the DNA doesn't belong to the coroner, John Meyer, could any other male have had contact, authorized or unauthorized, with the clothing either at the home or at the morgue?

    The Ramsey house wasn't emptied of LE personnel until 2:30 pm. A coroner's investigator would probably have access to the body at the morgue, located at the Boulder Community Hospital. Maybe others had keys. I'm not saying the DNA transfer happened in either of these venues, but I haven't read anything so far which makes it impossible.

    I'm not a medical technician.
  14. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    "Fallible DNA evidence can mean prison or freedom"

    "But DNA is not as objective as you might think. In the first of a two-part investigation, New Scientist reveals that much of the DNA analysis now conducted in crime labs can suffer from worrying subjectivity and bias. We asked forensic analysts to interpret a sample of real DNA evidence and found that they reached opposing conclusions about whether the suspect matched it or not. Our subsequent survey of labs around the world also shows that there are significant inconsistencies in the guidelines on how to interpret a sample. The findings suggest that the difference between prison and freedom could often rest on the opinions of a single individual....Interpreting alleles in a mixed or partial sample is where the subjective opinion of an analyst could play a part...."

  15. Texan

    Texan FFJ Senior Member

    well then

    If it is true that dna testing can be affected by subjectivity then maybe there is not a "match" between the longjohn dna and the dna in JBR's panties as has been claimed.
  16. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    Good point...and GOOD to see you Texan! How have you been?
  17. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    How DNA evidence creates victims of chance

    The second part of the New Scientist article:

    "How can a single piece of DNA evidence generate such massive differences in the statistical weight assigned to it? Last week, a New Scientist investigation showed how different forensic analysts can reach very different conclusions about whether or not someone's DNA matches a profile from a crime scene. This week we show how, even when analysts agree that someone could be a match for a piece of DNA evidence, the statistical weight assigned to that match can vary enormously."

  18. Elle

    Elle Member

    How on earth will they ever be able to pinpoint the real criminal responsible with all these different forensic analysts reaching different conclusions. How can they continue to use DNA at all with all these experiments going on? Seems so unfair!
  19. fr brown

    fr brown Member

    I haven't been able to find out much about the DNA testing. I'm guessing that Y-STR testing was done on the underwear. That might be less ambiguous than STR testing because it only looks at portions of the Y chromosome.
  20. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    All the evidence BUT the microscopic DNA samples, most partial, leads to the
    Ramseys. No question about that.

    The DNA could have gotton on the clothes a thousand ways. It's useless until the donor is placed at the scene that night, or at the very least, in Boulder, Colorado, without an alibi or any reasonable explanation as to how the DNA got there.

    Personally I think it was deposited there during handling of the clothes by the medical examiner or other technicians who came into contact with them while working on the evidence and/or autopsy. It wasn't necessarily theirs, but they contaminated the material while manipulating it for removal and/or testing. Just my opinion.

    A technician in Europe contaminated so many swabs (used in collecting DNA)at the manufacturer, DNA for dozens of crimes was eventually linked back to her. She was innocent of everything but making a huge mistake in production.

    Anyone else see the TruTV crime show with Lou Smit yesterday? It was about the Heather Dawn Church case which the RST NEVAH QUIT bragging that Lou Smit had solved when everyone else couldn't and it became a cold case. Turns out that, AS WAS SAID many times, it wasn't Smit AT ALL. It was another detective who worked with Smit, who was more familiar with the newer technology of fingerprint databases and that protocol. Coming into the cold case this detective realized that the fingerprints collected at the crime scene three years before hadn't been compared to many state databases not included in the FBI database. So he sent out copies of the fingerprint evidence to something like 90 state databases. He got the call a month later from La. and the killer was identified and convicted. Even Smit said on the program he had no idea the fingerprints hadn't been compared to all available databases, but the other (young) detective did and was the one who cracked the case. Ha! What a swell guy that "legend in his own mind" Smit is.

    This is why this case was never "solved." Too many people trying to get their fame and glory on the back of a dead child. Instead of following the evidence, they followed their egos.

    Now JonBenet is the punchline for every "child pageant" and "stage mother" joke written or comment spoken.

    Nice work, Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey. I wouldn't let my dog's memory be ruined with the lies and deceit and grotesque horror you've put upon your child for all eternity. At least you'll always be there right with her, the disgraced and cold-hearted parents who have no integrity nor compassion for anyone but yourselves.

    I watched Ransom last night. It played in Boulder in the weeks before the murder. Possibly in New York, as well, when the Ramseys were vacationing there with the Stines in early December. Oh, the parallels: I can see a feverished mind borrowing all she could remember from that movie which her stepson even told LE so clearly mirrored their own family.

    I will say I'm glad not to hear anything from the Ramseys or their shills on the news or TV talk shows anymore. Enough lies for a lifetime...even for a child murder.

    JonBenet, I hope your spirit has moved far beyond the abuse you suffered at the hands of your killer and those who aided in the cover up. I hope they can never hurt you again.
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