JBR's underwear sent for DNA analysis

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Tez, Dec 27, 2003.

  1. Tez

    Tez Member

    Link to Times Call Story

    BOULDER — DNA found in the underwear that JonBenet Ramsey was wearing when she was found murdered in her home has been submitted by the Boulder County District Attorney’s Office to the FBI’s national DNA databank.

    The latest development has left several people involved in the 7-year-old murder investigation optimistic that the 6-year-old girl’s murderer will be identified.

    The submission to the FBI’s Combined DNA Index System is a significant step forward in the investigation, says Ramsey attorney Lin Wood, who confirmed that the sample had passed standards required for submission within the last several months.

    Wood says this recent development — coupled with news that the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and the Denver Police Department are lending a helping hand in the

    investigation — improves the likelihood that JonBenet’s murder will be solved.

    “There was probably no chance that the case could be solved while it was being handled by the Boulder Police Department,â€

    Wood said, adding that the department did not try to submit the male DNA sample while it held the reins of the investigation. “The fact that (Boulder County District Attorney) Mary Keenan took over the case with an aim toward conducting a fair and objective investigation alone increases the chances of success.â€


    “My honest answer on this is I do not know if it’s solvable,†says Tom Bennett, the lead investigator on the Ramsey case for the DA’s office. “I’m only one guy. I’ve been here six months. I have a lot of stuff I have to look through.â€


    Little JonBenet’s murder once permeated lives.

    Pictures of a young, blond debutante haunted families waiting in the checkout aisle of their local grocery store as they glanced at the weekly tabloids. Evening news reports reviewed the latest leads in the investigation with no avail.


    But JonBenet has become a full-time investment for Bennett, who said he works at least 40 hours a week, knocking on doors and interviewing folks who might hold the key that unlocks the answer to the girl’s murder. In addition, retired Colorado Springs homicide investigator Lou Smit works the case part time.


    “Our investigator, with 28 years of homicide experience, is working on it full time,†Keenan said. “In terms of our expectations, we are making progress.â€

    Ollie Gray, a private investigator hired by the Ramseys in 1999, said his side of the investigation is ongoing, and that the district attorney’s office has not been in touch with him since a special meeting in July.


    Keenan said Gray and other investigators have been fully cooperative with her office. And while details of the status of the information Gray provided are unavailable, she said the public can rest assured it is now in competent hands.


    It’s a 15-foot walk from Keenan’s office to the quarters where Bennett works in the Boulder County Justice Center.

    But the daily grind of running the Boulder County District Attorney’s Office doesn’t afford Keenan the opportunity to become fully immersed in the time-consuming Ramsey investigation, she said.


    Keenan said her office has been frugal in funding the investigation and has managed to stay within its allocated budget. She could not offer specific numbers as to the amount of money that has been filtered into the investigation.


    Not a moment of that time is wasted, she said.

    “He’s very competent, very detailed, very experienced, and I've been impressed by his work here at our office,†Keenan said.


    Most recently, he has been called upon to assist in the Kobe Bryant sexual assault investigation.

    Bennett says the Ramsey endeavor has distinguished itself from the others.

    This is the most difficult thing I’ve worked on in my life,†he said. “Nothing compares to it. Nothing. Nothing comes close to it. This is mind-boggling.â€


    Tricia Griffith admits that interest in the JonBenet Ramsey murder investigation has wavered.

    But to say that it has deteriorated altogether is a gross exaggeration, she says.

    Type in “JonBenet Ramsey†on the search engine www.google.com and you will receive at least 27,600 hits — or Web pages — about the young girl. That doesn't take into account alternate spellings, like “Jon Benet Ramsey,†for which there are more than 7,500 matches.

    “You would be surprised how many people are interested,†says Griffith, owner of www.forumsforjustice.org, a Web site intent on discussing “true crime cases.’ The primary focus of Griffith’s site, like thousands of others, is the JonBenet Ramsey investigation.

    Owners of some sites profess they know who is behind the December murder. Others post graphic pictures in an attempt to demonstrate how JonBenet was killed. Griffith says her site is distinguished by the fact that its many members — ranging from business professionals to housewives — conduct research and have gathered limited facts about the case to promote civilian justice.

    “I think we’re very dedicated,†Griffith said. “You’ll find that we have a lot of intelligent posters and we're proactive. We try to poke a stick in the tiger's cage to get it up and moving again.â€

    That was precisely Griffith’s motive when she requested from the Boulder District Attorney's Office a copy of the 911 call placed by Patsy Ramsey on the morning of Dec. 26, 1996. Her request was prompted by statements made by Wood, who appeared on numerous TV programs this summer to deny reports that Patsy, John and Burke Ramsey could be heard at the end of the tape.

    Wood was responding to reports that in an enhanced 911 tape, Burke could be heard asking his parents questions while Patsy repeatedly said “Help me, Jesus.â€

    Griffith believes what she heard refutes Patsy Ramsey’s statement to Boulder police that Burke was sleeping when she called police to report that JonBenet was missing.

    Wood, who on Tuesday filed a defamation suit against Fox News, says Griffith’s statements are “absolutely and unequivocally false.†The tape is a genuine representation of Patsy Ramsey’s distress and further proves that none of the Ramseys was involved in JonBenet's murder, Wood said.

    “I challenge anyone who says to the contrary to publicly release their ‘recording’ and the full report of any so-called ‘expert’ who claims to hear Burke and John on the tape,†Wood said. “I will be more than happy to take the sworn testimony of any such individual as part of the Ramsey v. Fox News litigation and prove that person upon cross-examination to be a fraud.â€

    Griffith’s proactive behavior began earlier this year, when she retained ownership of the 2-year-old site. In December 2002, the Boulder Police Department handed the reins of the Ramsey investigation to the District Attorney’s Office. Griffith was immediately dumbfounded by the office’s actions, she said.

    In April, Keenan took a controversial stance when she openly defended a federal judge’s ruling supporting the theory that an intruder — not Patsy Ramsey — was responsible for JonBenet’s murder.

    “That was appalling,†said Griffith, who believes the intruder theory is false. “There was no need for her to comment on that case.â€

    Keenan, who issued a statement calling the ruling a “thoughtful and well-reasoned decision,†would not comment on what specifically provoked her to issue public support for the ruling.


    At the seven-year anniversary of JonBenet’s murder , there are no concrete answers as to when or if the young girl’s killer will ever be found.

    Wood is confident — particularly in light of recent developments — that identifying the killer is feasible.

    “I believe DNA will ultimately be the evidence that brings the murder of JonBenet to justice,†Wood said.

    The status of the investigation — vague as it is — is as important as any other investigation being handled by the district attorney's office, Keenan said.


    As the Tricia Griffiths of the world make their pleas, Keenan says Bennett and the other investigators continue to work diligently.

    Until then, optimism prevails within most of the investigative community
    “I still feel this case could be solved,†Gray said. “As far as if anything can be solved soon, that’s really an unfair question, based on our limited involvement with the internal workings with the district attorney's office.â€

    “I think it is solvable,†Keenan said. “At some point I think it will be solved.â€


    Tricia, you are the greatest~
  2. Twitch

    Twitch Active Member

    Well I'll be.

    Please, Lord, let me be there when Tricia meets the Woody one to give her sworn statement.
  3. 1000 Sparks

    1000 Sparks Active Member


    Way to go Tricia !

    Why hasn't wood heard the same thing we did on the 911 tape. How can he dispute that? It was clear....

    How can someone be sued for saying it IS on there?
  4. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland


    Lots of discussion about the DNA elsewhere.

    Mame is claiming unnamed sources who told her that previously, some of the DNA samples came back 'inconclusive'. These darned unnamed sources. I wish they had an atom of credibility.....

    Smokey is claiming that according to ST, Joe Barnhill couldn't be excluded if the DNA came from more than one source. If my recollection serves me right, according to ST, no-one could be excluded if the DNA came from more than once source - not even the Ramseys!
  5. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    Outstanding, Tricia!

    Your comments are profound, and in behalf of everyone here at FFJ, thank you for presenting us as more than just a bunch of old ladieswith cats!

    Sparkie, Wood has challenged us to present an expert's report on the 911 tape that documents the additional voices and conversation that we all heard. He pledges in this challenge to put that expert on the witness stand in the Fox suit (like he's ever taken ANY case to trial! LOL) to prove the expert a liar. That should be interesting to say the least....Chain of custody of Tricia's tape is utterly crucial for that expert, as is the expert's testing methodologies. IOW, the Woodmeister has just issued a veiled threat to sue any expert who would touch that tape. Tricia, where's our expert???? Instead of presenting the expert and his testimony/report to the WOODpile, it would probably be best to turn it over to the FBI and let them run with it.

    I must say I do find it hard to believe that Bennett is putting 40 hours a week in on the Ramsey case plus working on the Kobe case. In 6 months, all he apparently has done is to just send those panties to the FBI lab for all that time invested. That's about 1,000 man-hours of investigative effort all for a pair of undies. At this rate, Bennett won't "solve" this case until after Armageddon....
  6. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    Not long ago

    jameson stole part of one of my posts about Lin Wood having his nose stuck in the investigation and said it wasn't true.

    Well, if it wasn't true, then how the flip does Wood know what Keenan has been doing? How does he know that she sent the DNA to the database? Keenan hasn't made any public statements, so how does he know that? Yeh, right, like he doesn't know exactly what's going on there.

    There was no additional money allotted to the so-called re-investigation into JBR's death. No money, no investigation. I don't care what anyone says, budget is budget. If money wasn't budgeted, then, who's paying the help? Who is paying Bennett and Smit for their services? Are they working for nothing? It takes money to run an investigation - money for travel, money for phone calls, money for DNA analysis... Trust me, there isn't a lot being done on this investigation.

    I notice Wood said the DNA has been submitted. But, I don't see where it was accepted. Another case of leaving part of the story out, like Wood left out the Aerospace word in regard to the tape? There are so many misleading statements being made and so many half-truths and outright lies. Eventually, Wood, it's all going to turn around on you and bite a big chunk right out of your arrogant hide. I just hope I'm around to see it happen. And, it will happen.
  7. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

  8. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    Furthermore, according to another post of the news story regarding this "new wrinkle" in the case, Bennett clearly states that he is spending 40 hours a week on this case since last June. That's almost 1,000 man-hours of investigative work and the most he's done is send a longstanding piece of evidence to the FBI lab? A tech could have done THAT! Whatever money has been budgeted for HIS salary has apparently been a big waste of case resources. Perhaps the Kobe Bryant case is interfering too much.....
  9. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Twitch wrote:
    "Please, Lord, let me be there when Tricia meets the Woody one to give her sworn statement"

    LOL Twitch. If for some reason Lin Wood and I meet I would hope I would have the opportunity to overwhelm him with the true facts of the case. However I doubt that will happen. Lin Wood has a habit of not being in the same room with people who know the truth unless he can control what comes out of their mouth.

    Thanks for all the nice comments guys but remember, it's all of you who really do the work and keep FFJ moving. Nothing would happen without you.

    DejaNu Spade is the poster who has taken on the challenge of having the 911 tape examined. I know what you know as far as the tape goes.

    I do have to say the spectrograph that Spade posted is very telling indeed.

    Once again my heartfelt thanks to Spade for making the effort to get to the truth about the tape.

    Jayelles your research has proved invaluable. What is your take on the dna sample that has been sent in. It's my understanding that it is microscopic and degraded. Unless it can be matched to someone who is not connected to the Ramseys then it is useless in helping find the killer.

    Now if the microscopic piece of degraded DNA comes back and it matches a 90 year old woman who touched JBR's hand are the Ramseys going to claim that she is the killer? No of course not. What if it comes back a match to someone close to JBR that wasn't even in Boulder the night of the killing? How will they explain that?

    To me the DNA is nothing more than a huge red herring. There is no flesh under the nails, no blood, nothing defensive. Lin Wood is trying to make everyone believe that the DNA under her fingernails and in her panties similar to someone who fought off her victim. This is just not true. Another spin from the Ramsey spin machine.

    The DNA could have come from anywhere. Even if they match it this won't prove who killed JonBenet Ramsey.
  10. AK

    AK Member


    Excellent points about the DNA, Tricia. Maybe somebody should post the quote from Dr. Henry Lee when he said this was not a DNA case. But then, he's only the world's greatest expert on the issue, not a sleazy spinmeister like Lin Wood.

    Speaking of which, when he deposes you and you get your testimony back to review and approve, please post it on FFJ immediately. We all look forward to seeing how you will educate Wood about the facts of this case. He may be able to cow a doofus like Darnay Hoffman, but will be painfully over his head when he tries to take on Miss Tricia and the legal eagles on this forum. I'm really excited by this prospect -- what fun that will be!

    Regarding the 911 call, what is Wood's official statement on the enhanced version? Has he refused to acknowledge that one exists and that he has not been able to release it, even if he wanted to, because it is part of the working case?

    I have to project ahead and laugh at the problems Wood is creating for Hal Haddon's firm when they finally have to move in and take charge.
  11. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland


    I'm no expert on DNA but I was interested in Mark Beckner's deposition and his revelation that there exists another DNA sample which was not in her underwear and not under her fingernails. It was patently clear that it was news to Lin Wood because he got notably twitchy about it - especially when Beckner clammed up and refused to divulge any information about it lest it harm the investigation. Lin harped back about this DNA several times. To distinguish it from the (degraded) DNA in her underwear and fingernails, it became known as DNA-x/DNAX.

    DNA-x was seemingly discovered later in the investigation (Beckner could not recall exactly when, but said it was post-1998). He did confirm that it did not match Chris Wolf's DNA but beyond that he had no comment to make stating that since it did not match Wolf, it was therefore not pertinent to the Wolf deposition.

    Now we are told that subsequent testing of the bloodstains in JBR's underwear produced a better foreign DNA sample and that this can be entered into CODIS. According to Wood (FWIW), this second bloodstain was picked up around 1998/1999 but I don't think it is DNA-x for the reason that Beckner said under oath that it wasn't found in her underwear or under her fingernails:-



    I'd be interested to know whether the known markers in DNA-x match those in her underwear and under her fingernails. To date, I have seen no credible source state that they do.

    Regarding the latest revelation that the DNA is going to be entered into the FBI database.....it would appear that this statement has been made several times in the last year and I am wondering what is the problem. It reminds me of the film Airplane where Leslie Nilsson's character keeps coming up to the cockpit to wish them good luck and doing it each time as though it were the first and only time he had done so!

    The FBI datatase is called CODIS. It dictates the standard for the collection, analysis and storage of DNA information. There are many "markers" in DNA, but CODIS determines which 13 of these should be selected for comparison/storage. Now, the CODIS database is used for several purposes - e.g.

    1) The permanent storage of criminals' DNA info
    2) The permanent storage of unmatched DNA info found at crimescenes

    Any DNA found at a new crimescene can then be compared with both of the above and then stored as category 2) if necessary.

    Seemingly however, the FBI will only STORE a DNA profile if it has 10 or more markers. However, I am uncertain whether they will do a comparison with fewer than 10 because this would certainly still be useful. According to Lin Wood, the DNA found on JBR had 9 good marker and a tenth weaker marker (not sure if weaker is the right adjective but I'm sure you get the drift).

    So, IMO, what we have is a situation where it might be possible for the FBI to do a comparison but not to permanently store the DNA on the database. The advantage of permanent storage is that it will be automatically compared with any new DNA which gets entered.

    In summary, we seem to have Lin Wood, the Ramseys and perhaps others stating at various different times over the past year or so that the DNA was going to be compared with CODIS. What I wonder is if they were all correct? Perhaps the incomplete 9.5/13 DNA has been entered for a routine comparison at various different times because it cannot be permanently stored due to it having too few markers?

    I could go on and on about it but I think this post is probably long enough :)
  12. Tricia

    Tricia Administrator Staff Member

    Jayelles you never cease to amaze me. Thank you!

    Please keep going on and on. You know what you are talking about and you offer up some great points and questions.

    This is going to be very interesting in the coming months.

  13. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland


    Is there any way I can post the images associated with my stungun project? I don't have a website for linking images.

    My stungun project demonstrates how the pigmarks match the Air Taser exactly yet the marks on JonBenet do not match the Air Taser. It also shows how the image which is posted at jameson's website inaccurately favours a match.
  14. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Lin Wood

    Re the Larry King Interview about the 911 tape:-

    Not only did Lin Wood omit the fact that it was the Aerospace enhancement which gave the BPD the idea that voices were on the tape, he also omitted the fact that NBC were the second choice to run the documentary about the 911 tape. CBS were the original choice to run the programme, but they withdrew after they had it enhanced and concluded that there was something there.


    I just wish people would be upfront and honest about things. Lin Wood's glaring omissions in the LKL interview smacks of a cover-up. Of course, the majority of LKL viewers will not have the benefot of the information that the Internet forum posters and Wood knows that. However, what we see is a man who can mislead by omission. Clearly he cannot be trusted to present the truth, the WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth.

    Therefore - what else does he mislead us on?
  15. Ilene-Sue

    Ilene-Sue Member

    You can attach a picture by clicking on" browse" at the bottom of this reply space. There is a limit as to how large they can be -- if they are too big maybe you can send moab a message and she'll fix it up.

    How come we can all hear "Help me jeezuz" but Woody and his friends can't? Maybe they need hearing aids?
  16. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Ilene Sue

    Can I attach an image from my own PC?
  17. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Testing with one of my babies.
  18. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    Jayelles...yes, you can attach from your own PC...please just keep the pixel WIDTH at 380, and we won't blow the margins on the threads...
  19. Ginja

    Ginja Member

    Ya Know!

    Wonders never cease! How many experts does it take to say "this is not a DNA case" before people involved in this investigation realize that identification or not of the dna material IS NOT GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!

    Proof beyond reasonable doubt works both ways. So even if they were able to ID the DNA, it CANNOT BE PROVEN BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT that the depositor of that DNA killed JonBenet. There is NO EVIDENCE to support the allegation that the DNA depositor is the murderer.

    Proof beyond doubt: a Ramsey cannot be ruled in or out if the dna matches or doesn't match them.

    The fact that the DNA is present BOTH under JBR's fingernails and in her underwear -- and that the quantity of DNA (being minute and non-defensive) -- makes it HIGHLY PROBABLE that JonBenet randomly picked up the DNA and spread it herself innocently. IOW, the DNA "evidence" is as random as the hi tek boot prints and has absolutely nothing to do with the murder.

    So....any news on where the murderers spent the seventh anniversary of their murderous deeds?
  20. Adrian Monk

    Adrian Monk Member

    Unmatched and usable DNA from blood in the underwear is extremely significant for me. It's a new twist to the "plot" of this "story". I've run through different scenarios in my mind of how this could possibly have been planted by JR, but even the most plausible of those is a very thin stretch. At the least it would require a conspiracy to get it discretely on such short notice, and the flipside is that if it was premeditated (and thus NOT short notice), we have to figure out exactly what was premeditated and why.

    Adults who could have wiped JonBenet in the bathroom while having an open cut on their hand, would probably have already been compared with this sample.

    In recent months the "big picture" of the body of all the details I've been analyzing, has started to corroborate what my gut told me the first day I started to seriously look at this case: that somebody or some people in key political positions, at least in Boulder County if not the State of Colorado, has been operating on the basis of a conflict of interest, in an essentially corrupt way. I don't think the corruption was limited to Alex Hunter, but I don't think it extended to the front-line detectives trying to work the case. My opinion is that Tom Koby and possibly John Eller were "on the Team" so to speak. I do believe Mark Beckner was and still is "on the Team" partially because of his reluctance to prosecute Susan Stine for impersonating him in email.

    My opinion is that there is "some individual" whom I will enigmatically call "Mr. X" in Boulder society known to these key power figures of the police department, the BCDA, and Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman, who has been kept out of the limelight enough to prevent having to independantly compare his DNA to the crime scene sample. I believe that these figures, who collectively I've begun to call "the Machine", have protected this individual on the basis of damning information the individual has on them regarding "Machine" involvement in drug and prostitution activity in Boulder County. (Steve Thomas wrote in his book that he was told NOT to investigate drug and prostitution rings without City Council approval, which he took at the time to be a "lax attitude" toward "victimless crimes", but let's think about this a minute--if the attitude were really just "lax", there would be a referendum movement to decriminalize the behavior as there have been in several parts of California!)

    My further opinion is that Mr. X is known to the Ramseys, that they know of his guilt, and that they haven't included him in their "suspect list".

    My further opinion is that Mr. X has been using Haddon, Morgan, and Foreman to apply pressure where needed, on various Colorado State officials (as alluded to by Fleet White's open letter to the people of Colorado).

    My further opinion is that the Ramseys' own guilty behavior has been a byproduct of having been given an "offer they can't refuse" by Mr. X. There is a threat of some sort, which if acted upon would prove even more devastating to them (and possibly result in incarceration) than what they've already been through as a family. I won't speculate as to what that threat is (yet).

    I have no opinion either way as to whether Mary Keenan is directly involved with Mr. X. Her stance on the case may have been shaped by events set in motion by Mr. X or The Machine; or they may have been a direct result of contact with Mr. X.

    I do have the opinion that there needs to be a special prosecutor, but I don't believe that one appointed by a mere governor of Colorado would be untainted enough by Machine influence, to really be "independant" in the truest sense. I think some involvement at the Federal level needs to be brought to bear, but even then only with careful National Congressional oversight by elected officials directly accountable to nation-wide voters, and to federal judges, and open to scrutiny in the national media. If I'm not just having an hallucinatory conspiracy theory here, then we're talking about a cancer which may have metastasized fully in Colorado politics, and no "cell" can really be considered "healthy" just yet.

    How's that for a re-introductory post back to the Forum?


    (wipes keyboard clean obsessively)
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