JonBenet hanging????

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Thor, Mar 5, 2002.

  1. Thor

    Thor Active Member

    I watched LKL live tonight with John Walsh on the Van Dam case. Larry asked John about the Ramsey case. Please see the attached from the transcript already posted:

    KING: Have you ever shown an interest the in the JonBenet Ramsey case?

    WALSH: You know, we were asked to do that case a year afterward to try to help the Boulder police, you know, get a couple tips on it. But I think everybody knows that the case was compromised by bad police work in the beginning. I'm not the first one to say that and I'm a great supporter of law enforcement.

    I mean, you are a detective and you go to a kidnapping of a high -- prominent family in a very wealthy area, and then, you know, police work 101, you clear the house and you clear the crime scene. She allowed the father and his friend to search the house. So he cuts down JonBenet, who is hanging down there. He compromised the crime scene, whether he had anything to do with it or he had nothing to do with it, he cut down his daughter in the crime scene with the DNA.

    Whaaaa? John cut down his daughter who is hanging there???? I know that Schiller knows what John supposedly did in the basement and is not allowed to say. Could this be it? Did John Walsh slip up and let a kittycat out of the bag here? I thought I was hearing things but many other posters are bringing this up tonight. I know the possibility has been discussed of JB being hung on other forums but I was pretty much convinced by others analysis of the autopsy that this was not possible. But, could she have been hung by her hands or arms? Did John use Burke's knife to cut her down? John said he found her on her back with the blankets, etc. Fleet was behind him and I have never heard Fleet or anyone else mention "hanging". If this is true, and a slipup from Walsh not to be made public, IMO it would be pretty strong evidence that Lizard BSed his way thru this thing to someone. But I am majorly confused now.
     
  2. JR

    JR FFJ Senior Member

    Evidence

    The police always hold back evidence. This could be something they held back. IMHO, if that's true I find it sad that it got disclosed prior to the upcoming lawsuits and a criminal trial. I wonder if there will be a retraction (not that it would matter much now IMHO.)
     
  3. fly

    fly Member

    livor mortis = bonehead mistake

    The livor mortis patterns do not support the idea that she was hanging, as far as I can tell, nor does the description of the ligatures.

    There was livor mortis on her back, which means her back was down after death. Had she been hanging, I don't think livor mortis would appear on her back, but rather, in her legs. There also was livor mortis on one side of her face, which fits the scenario of her being on her back more easily than being suspended.

    Her hands/arms were in rigor mortis above her head when the body was brought upstairs, so that would indicate that she might have been suspended, except for the fact that there were no notations of abrasions or deep ligature marks on her wrists. So, we have raised arms, but not from being suspended by them -- kind of tough to fit to a hanging scenario.

    If not suspended from her arms, then the other option is suspended by the neck ligature. But that ligature is described basically as horizontal (although there is some deviation noted). But now we're back to the problem of the livor mortis patterns not fitting suspension.

    My guess, the LKL comment was a bone-head mistake. He mispoke.
     
  4. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    It is interesting if it was a slip of the tongue…

    Fly indicates the livor mortis patterns do not support the idea that she was hanging, and I agree with that as far as she was not hanged to death, but it certainly could have been a part of the staging. And when she wasn't discovered by FW, JR could have "needed" to cut her down and place her closer to the door. The blanket and static cling nightgown could have been in the downstairs dryer, as opposed to the upstairs dryer. John was missing for almost an hour the morning of the 26th.

    JR is also right…if this is true, I wish it hadn't been leaked too.
     
  5. Dunvegan

    Dunvegan Guest

    Photograph of the pipes in the "wine cellar" room (755 15th Street, Boulder, CO)

    <img src="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/images/basement_pipes.jpg">
     
  6. 1000 Sparks

    1000 Sparks Active Member

    ?

    What if the rigor had set in while she was lying down and she later was taken to the basement for "staging"??????

    Why the deep furrows in her neck and not her wrists?
     
  7. fly

    fly Member

    not staging

    I won't say there's no chance she was hung during her murder, although the neck ligature usually has been interpreted to argue against that.

    However, for the reasons I stated above, it sure doesn't appear that she was suspended for any length of time after death. Had she been suspended as part of the initial staging, the livor mortis would have been concentrated in her legs, not her back. Had she been suspended at some later point, there likely would be secondary livor mortis patterns in the lower body, and remnants of the initial livor mortis visible in those areas. Nothing in the autopsy suggests that there is more than one livor mortis pattern present, although the details are limited.

    Those of you who really think this is significant might want to try to email and ask for clarification. My guess is he'll go "Oops!"
     
  8. JR

    JR FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, what Fly said

    Interesting thoughts. The livor mortis indicates JonBenét was not hanging as Fly says. However, there is some indication John was in the basement twice in the morning based on his deposition.

    "What if?" What if the livor mortis was fully set before John went down the first time (before the police arrived maybe?), and he hung JonBenét's body as additional staging then realized no one was finding it and cut it down on his second trip (if in fact there were two trips and this was the mid morning one.)

    What would then have been held back is 1) that JonBenét's body was suspended and 2) that JonBenét's body had been moved because there are indications the coroner would/should spot when that happens, based on my forensic readings.

    Another scenario is that maybe her hands were tied fairly low on one of the horizontal pipes and John cut them lose (thus cutting her down.)

    The key here may be in knowing if the livor mortis indicates JonBenét's was moved at any time after death IMHO.
     
  9. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    Don't think so

    why would they hold that information back when just about everything else about this case has been leaked out? No one - not John Ramsey himself, not in ST's IRMI, or PMPT, or any report ever has said she was hanging when found. It would have leaked out by now.

    Look at it this way - if JBR had been hanging when JR "found" her, then he lied in his book, too. How could the authorities know anything besides what JR himself said? He was the first one to find the body. He said she was lying wrapped in a blanket. FW was right behind him - JR didn't have time to cut her down if she had been hanging.

    I think John Walsh has too many cases in his head, and he simply made a mistake. He's not perfect, and I suspect he knows he made a mistake by now. It's been known to happen before, ya know.
     
  10. zapata

    zapata Senior Member

    Wy and JR and all.

    I agree. I don't think JonBenet was hung. I think John Walsh mis-spoke. I looked at the pictures of JonBenet at Matt Causey's old site, and you can see white lines on her back that can be mistaken for rope lines. I think they are where her top was wrinkled as she was drug by her arms from outside the windowless room to the spot where she was found.

    I think this action caused her top to become twisted and the white lines were caused from her lying on the twisted top. I believe if you find those pictures and look at them you will see how her top is twisted in the front leading to her back.

    I think the dragging caused the abrasions on her back. I think Patsy probably wrapped her up/papoose style, as Steve writes in his book after she dragged her to the spot where she was found. I think Patsy did the garrotting and molesting her with the artist brush handle outside the windowless room before she dragged her into the room, thus leaving her arms above her head.

    edited to add: the picture I am speaking of is the artist rendition that the Globe ran in the beginning of this case. It is so real looking, that I often forget it is an artist rendition.

    I have been wrong before and am still open to other suggestions.

    zap
     
  11. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    nope

    This paricular rumor started over a passage in PMPT. Some wierd lady told Schiller that a GJ had told her that JBR was found hanging in a secret dumwaiter by JR. It's not true. The passage was meant to show how crazies came up with chit outta the clear blue but somehow the story grew legs. Also--the ligature around her wrists were so loose that both the FBI and CBI felt that it was simply staging--certainly not tight enough to restrain her let alone allow her to hang from anything. When I first heard this rumor I thought it was fascinating but eventually I found out that it was totally false.

    Plus what Fly is saying about the livor mortis is true, too.

    This red herring is similar to the Melody Stanton story where the whole world, myself included, believed that she said sh'd heard a scream around midnight. I still hear this "fact" repeated on talk shows--and as it turns out Melody has changed her story several thousand times so to me it's worthless. I used to assume that if a person like her said something that it must be true--no more.

    Another time I heard a lecture by an FBI profiler who said a six page ransom note was found at the crime scene and that started a fury--but it turns out Ressler was just misinformed.

    It's just a shame that we'll never know what's true and what's not exactly.
     
  12. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Hi VP--not sure where it is in that book but the whole exchange happens in a restaurant. This lady just walks up to Schiller and yammers away about a secret dumbwaiter and if I recall correctly I think she said JBR's hair was found in a hinge of the door.

    By the way--have I ever told you guys about me meeting Pasta Jay?
     
  13. Hergus

    Hergus New Member

    Fly and BobC

    I guess I should have been reading here all day and not asking questions in the wrong place. Thanks for the info everyone.

    ;-)
     
  14. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    BobC

    Hey you... good to see you...tell me about meeting Pasta Jay, please oh please???

    Smooches...
     
  15. AK

    AK Member

    PMPT

    Right, Bobalu. I don't have the book handy but the passage is near the end.

    When did Ressler say six pages?
     
  16. BobC

    BobC Poster of the EON - Fabulous Inimitable Transcript

    Hi FedoraX and Moab and Hergus--Fedora, Ressler said six pages during an interview with Annonline but this was very, very early in the case, 1998 maybe. I've considered that maybe he meant 3 pages front and back but then Patsy didn't write on the backs.
     
  17. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    But, what about

    Pasta Jay, BobC?

    BTW, did I tell you how happy I am to see your smiling face again? I missed you.

    Hey, AK!! You too.
     
  18. Mels

    Mels Member

    Hi Bob C great to see you again!

    I can't see JR cutting down JBR...just can't.

    She had absolutely no signs of death by hanging, even slow death by hanging, at least according to all the info I have digested over the years.

    I remember all the references to her 'gentle' strangling...because there weren't enough Pet. Hemorrhages. Many of us concluded that she was VERY close to death when garrot was put into place.

    I am still trying to figure out why she didn't bleed more in the brain area after such a blow to the head.

    So glad to have the forum back to 'normal'....I had quite forgotten what how fun this forum had been when it was really cookin' and people weren't being chastized for scratching their bo-hineys. :)

    Greetings to all,
    Mels

    edited to untangle a sentence...
     
  19. Elle

    Elle Member

    John Walsh/LKL

    Hello, Thor, I finally made it with the help of JR tonight. I was advised to activate my registration by posting ...so here I am!

    Thank you Dunvegan for letting me come here. I was on your other site for a very short spell before it closed. Congratulations on this wonderful site. I'm very impressed with your setup.

    Thor, This is the first time I have had the chance to read about John Walsh on the LKL show. I was in Myrtle Beach and missed all of this. I'm stunned! So this is what all the talk was about.

    I must delve into this more deeply tomorrow.

    Edited because we don't post real names Elle. Not that I care but it's a bad habit to let anyone get into.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2002
  20. Elle

    Elle Member

    names

    Thank you JR. I understand. Probably wrote it without thinking. Sorry about that.
     
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