JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by otg, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. otg

    otg Member

    Usually workers have these pails left over from some type of material. I used to get them at work when our fire department filled dry-chemical fire extinguishers (they use non-food grade bicarbonate of soda). But if you don't have access to one being left over, they can be purchased at home improvement stores:|1&facetInfo=

    Notice it even says,"Excellent for tool storage".
  2. otg

    otg Member

    I agree with your speculation about the pictures. Too bad we don't know more about the nature of them so we could have a better idea of how they might figure into the whole thing. But the fact that they were even brought up in the "interview" makes us suspect the importance of them. And then too, they were important enough that when the interview was continued the next day with PR, she brought it up with a further explanation of how they might have ended up in the basement (obviously after this had been discussed with the lawyers after they were first brought up).

    On possible scenarios, I have a hard time imagining the much-speculated "tightening of the ligature" by anyone in the family for the purpose of "finishing her off". But beyond that, the marks on her neck tell me there was more to it than that. Consider if you would another possible scenario. Rather than copy it all over to here from WS (I don't think I've ever fully explained what I think happened on FFJ), I'll give you a link to where I outlined what I think happened. Anyone who reads what I'm writing here can choose to follow the link and read it, or not. But here is basically the sequence of events that I think happened:

    One thing I will copy from there to here is the following quote from the book Pathology of Neck Injury by Peter Vanezis:

    "It is not unusual in homicidal ligature strangulation to find that there is more than one ligature mark, each of varying intensity and crossing each other, in parallel or at an angle to each other. Together with such an appearance, one quite commonly sees abrasions caused by movement of a ligature across the neck."

  3. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    Interesting. Thank's for sharing.

    I'm glad to see, in your posted theory, that you believe the paintbrush handle was tied, after death, for staging. I believe this to be the case.

    I'll mention a few difficulties I see with your theory although this does not mean that I reject your theory, completely. Every theory has it's difficulties.

    1. How does your theory explain the urine stains on the carpet, in front of the wine cellar? Most experts believe this shows that the ligature was tied while JBR was lying face down at this spot.

    2. If hanging, how can the furrow be almost completely horizontal?

    In my theory, I tried to take those pieces of evidence into consideration.
    In my estimation, the marks, inferior to the furrow mark, were caused by the
    perp tightening the ligature and the furrow is where the ligature finally tightened enough that there was no more slippage.

    I tend to believe, if there was a scream, it came from PR after she discovered the scene. If the scream belonged to JBR, and the perp silenced her with the head blow, it indicates that the perp had the weapon in hand (flashlight?). I emphasize the word (indicate) because it doesn't mean the perp couldn't have quickly reached for something.

  4. Elle

    Elle Member

  5. Learnin

    Learnin Member

  6. Elle

    Elle Member

  7. otg

    otg Member

    The so-called “garrote†was not functional as it was left on JonBenet’s body. I think the ligature that strangled her was altered to disguise how it actually happened. Further, I think the hair that was still entangled in the wraps on the paintbrush was still attached to her head -- proving that the length of cord could not be pulled without pulling out her hair by the roots. Cynic tried to get an answer out of James Kolar in one of Tricia’s webcasts about this, but I don’t think he could get Kolar to see the significance in the short amount of time he had to ask the question. Maybe if Tricia invites him back, she could let us post ahead of time some critical questions to ask him that he could be prepared for in the new webcast (otg crosses fingers here).

    I always appreciate others pointing out anything they see in it. It’s partly how I developed it. The difficulties we all have in figuring this out is due to the information we have. In one sense, it is limited because not all of the evidence has been revealed. On the other hand, we have an overabundance of information which is superfluous and possibly unrelated to the actual event and may even be the result of speculation that has unintentionally become accepted as truth. Or some of it could be just plain wrong (according to Michael Kane). So any criticism of my thoughts is welcomed.

    The answer to both of these questions is in how a “partial hanging†can happen. In a complete hanging, the entire weight of the body is supported off the ground. In a partial hanging, part of the body weight is supported by something other than the ligature. It could be a chair, a bed, the ground, or anything else. The victim can be vertical with only their feet touching the ground, or their knees could be resting on the ground, or they could be sitting in a chair and only slumped forward. They can even be lying down with only their head and neck suspended off the ground. It allows for nearly any body position or orientation imaginable, so long as a part of the body weight is what causes the pressure on the neck.

    On the first point about the urine, I’ll copy what I recently wrote at WS:

    I wonder if we are making too much of the urine stain being on the front. The only reference to this is from the AR which simply says, "The long underwear are urine stained anteriorly over the crotch area and anterior legs." I shouldn't have to point this out, but if a female pees her pants while she is standing, it's going to be wet mostly in the front and down the front of her legs.

    We know nothing more about the stain than this. We don't know how large an area it covered, and we don't know the exact pattern it formed. There are four things which would determine where the stain would be:
    1. The point of origin (in this case because of anatomy)
    2. Amount of fluid (which we don't know)
    3. Gravity
    4. Capillary action (wicking) of the material of the long johns
    I think we may be assuming too much when we try to fit our theories to what we imagine the stain to be. Also, the same thing when we try to tie the stain in the long johns to the urine stain on the carpet in the basement. After death, body fluids are not expelled -- they are simply released over a period of time. The two stains don't have to be from the same moment in time.

    As to the furrow, I believe that if the white line below the furrow is where she was strangled originally to the point of near-death. This line is at an upward angle toward the back of her neck (indicating the direction it was pulled). It seems to disappear into the area that is furrowed posteriorly. This blanched line indicates it was formed at or near the point of death, since some of the color should have returned when the ligature was moved if she was still alive and her body functioning normally. But restricted blood flow (from the ligature) and lowered blood pressure (from being unconscious and near death) would account for some of this. I think the petechial hemorrhaging above this white line indicates that the ligature slipped upwards and stopped just below the chin. Once the tension from the weight of her body on the cord is released (probably by cutting the cord), there is no longer any force pulling on the ligature, and it will settle into its final position with the pressure of the ligature equalized circumferentially. The furrow is caused by the tightness of the ligature and the swelling of surrounding flesh.

    Are you supposing that it was loosened and then moved, or that its two positions are from one single tightening of it?

    The scream is debatable. Because of the way Mrs. Stanton vacillated on her having heard the scream or “negative energyâ€, some people even question whether there was a scream at all. I believe there was a scream because it fits with everything else we know, and I suspect the Stantons were at least a little intimidated about the national attention. I too have wondered if it might have been from PR -- it’s certainly not an unexpected response to what she might have seen. If you recall, investigators did a good bit of testing of sound within the hellhole as well as through the neighborhood. We’ve always assumed (rightfully so, I think) that part of the testing was to see if the scream could be heard in JR and PR’s bedroom if it originated in the basement. The testing throughout the neighborhood was to see how far the open vent allowed the sound to carry. Obviously, investigators believed a scream occurred.

    <hr width="75%" align="center">
    On a completely different subject... Where is everyone? Koldkase? Cherokee? Cynic? Heymom? I know DeeDee and BOESP are still posting at WS, but what happened to everyone else? Is there something I don’t know? Tricia? Bueller? Bueller?
  8. BOESP

    BOESP Member

    I'm still reading otg. I want to say that your above post is one of the best ever I've seen concerning this case. :thumbsup:

    The reason I haven't posted here lately is I don't have any new information. Without access to all evidence there doesn't seem to be a whole lot to rehash, cuss, and discuss. :WY:

    I still think Steve Thomas's theory best fits what is publicly known. I think it is possible (corporal cleansing aside) that John, Burke, or some other person could have molested JonBenet but I don't see that event triggering such a reaction that JonBenet would be killed in a moment of rage by either John or Burke. I see Patsy as most likely if it is a rage attack or Burke if it is rage over something other than molestation. For other reasons (stated and re-stated over the years), Patsy is still my favorite parasol carrier.
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  9. heymom

    heymom Member

    I'm here! :hiya:

    I have nothing new to add after my watermelon whacking experiment though. I wish we could have access to the case files like Chief Kolar did. I'm sure we'd have a lot of our speculations cleared up once and for all!

    Alas, that isn't likely to happen any time soon. Didn't someone file an open records request, years ago? :sleuth:

    Until we get new information, it's hard to get enthused about going over these puzzles again and again... :(
  10. heymom

    heymom Member

    Have you read Chief Kolar's book? I wonder why you would continue to think that Patsy was the perp when it's obvious that Kolar has found a lot that points to Burke. He as much as told us that without quite stating it, at the end of his book. I understand how it's hard to let go of a pet theory but I don't see how you can discount what this man has seen in the case files.
  11. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    I'm here!
    As for the white mark, that is a POST Mortem occurrence. Had she been still alive, that mark would be red. There is NOTHING that indicates she was hung or suspended in any way. As for the white mark, that was made when livor mortis was in the blanching phase (non-fixed). which occurs first. Had the cord been moved immediately after, blood would seep back into the space and there would be no visible white mark. I feel the white mark still had the cord over it, and when the cord was removed at the autopsy, it revealed the white mark. This may or may not indicate that the cord was wound one more time AFTER death- it can also mean that her head, cocked to the right but drooping down as well, pressed against the section of cord in that spot on her throat, causing the blood to push away (blanching) , and because it remained that way on the body until she was found.
  12. BOESP

    BOESP Member

    BBM. Yes, I have read Kolar's book. I don't know why you are suggesting I discount everything that Kolar had to say. You said that. Not me.

    I have no pet theory and I don't discount Steve Thomas's opinion of what he saw at the beginning and first months of the investigation but apparently you do. Burke may or may not have been involved peripherally but I haven't seen or read anything that makes me think he killed JonBenet.
  13. heymom

    heymom Member

    I didn't say you discount *everything* - but if you read the last few chapters of Kolar's book, you would see the conclusion he drew. I think Thomas may have fallen for some of Patsy's subterfuge in throwing the investigation toward herself and John. A lot of things happened in that house between when JonBenet was initially found, and when the police were called. What looked to be part of the crime may well have been just mess from normal life in the Ramsey household (i.e. the scattered appearance of JonBenet's room; the open cupboards; the dirty linen). I give a lot of credence to Chief Kolar because after all these years, he put fresh eyes onto the case files and even took his results to the DA, with confidence that he had found the solution.

    As always, YMMV.
  14. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member


    I agree 100% with your post, Dee Dee. The evidence on JonBenet's own body proves she was not hung or suspended at any time.
  15. Learnin

    Learnin Member

    DeeDee, using your expertise concerning pre, and post, mortem injury, could you give us a short description of how you think this ligature strangulation occurred? Do you think there were several tightenings before the final tightening or do you think it simply slipped up the neck during the tightening?
    I apologize if you have stated this somewhere before.
  16. Elle

    Elle Member

    I agree with you BOESP I still think Steve's theory fits best with what is publicly known. I still feel Patsy could have been in a rage with JonBenét on Christmas night or early the next morning when she got up to fly to Charlevoix.

    I am amazed at the amount of work otg posts. Wish I had his brains!
  17. BOESP

    BOESP Member

    I agree and your point that it may have happened early the next morning is something I hadn't considered but I will now.

    There is as much evidence in the public domain to support PDI as there is any other theory. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the rest of the case files were opened.

    It seems strange to me that three cops came to three different conclusions (Arndt, Kolar and Thomas). Maybe that's why some believe all three Ramseys were involved.

    I also agree that otg puts out some great posts!
  18. DeeDee

    DeeDee Member

    Sure. I am happy to try to explain how I see it happening. I feel the strangulation came AFTER the head bash- and the head bash was administered to silence her quickly when she screamed. She collapsed instantly, probably convulsing (tan mucus found in her nose and in the vomit/mucus on her cheek that came from her mouth could have happened from the convulsion. The "tan" color of the mucus/vomit could indicate it contained blood (which turns brownish when exposed to oxygen). At that point, there was a dying child who may have looked like she was already dead. How to explain this away? The head wound was not visible. No open scalp lacerations.
    I believe the strangulation was intended to provide a VISIBLE cause of death, however grisly it sounds. The almost perfect circumferential ligature furrow combined with the perfect lip prints on the duct tape covering her mouth indicate she did NOT struggle or move around as she was being strangled. IMO the reason for this is that she was unconscious. As we know, the ligature was not a real garrote (which has no knot). Nor was it a true noose, with a lasso-like knot. It was simply a cord tied tight enough around her throat to choke her to death. There was so little damage to the INTERNAL structure of her neck that manual strangulation must be ruled out. Manual strangulation also would have left bruising from the hands, and possibly even finger marks. None were found. I think the cord was wound only once or twice (with the second winding being right over the first), and I believe the white postmortem mark (which only appears in the FRONT of her throat) may have been caused when her head drooped to the right - her chin pressing down over her throat and making contact with the cord (or even a fold of skin) after death during the early stage of livor when blanching would have occurred. Had the white mark been on the back of her neck, circumferential like the red furrow, then I would have considered that the cord was wound around once more after death, but I can't agree to that since the white mark is only on the front.
    We know she was not suspended or hung because has she been, the red furrow would not have been circumferential- rather there would be NO mark in the area that the ligature had pulled away from the neck as the weight of the body pulled downward against it. This usually is seen on the side of the neck but can be seen in the back of the back as well depending on how the head falls when a person is hung. This is how a coroner can tell whether or not she was hung or suspended.
    Does this help?
  19. Elle

    Elle Member

    Wonderful post, Dee! Or, should I be saying Dr. DeeDee! :)
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member


    Excellent, excellent post.

    According to case documents, Kolar confirmed the consensus of the experts was that the head bash occurred before the strangulation, and there was a period of around 45 minutes to an hour between JonBenet's head injury and the strangulation.
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