JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by otg, Dec 19, 2012.

  1. heymom

    heymom Member

    I LOVE deviled eggs!


    I'm in!

    Actually I think I might try a few whacks with a cantaloupe instead of a piece of clay. If I turn up anything interesting I'll take photos and put them up here.
  2. wombat

    wombat Member

    The last video was over the top, sorry for bashing an opinion. Pulling on the impact area was unrealistic and somewhat gross - no prying forces were exhibited in the autopsy report or photos, and the "levering" action is inappropriate. Also, "Bad to the Bone" is not music that would have been chosen, had good taste been considered. This was a dead six year old.

  3. Elle

    Elle Member

    New music is always interesting otg. I did like this, just hadn't heard it before. I personally don't think you were trying to hurt anyone by choosing your music, otg. I feel you were just trying to fill in the silence.
  4. Elle

    Elle Member

    I understand where you're coming from Wombat, but I don't think otg was thinking along those lines. He really does work very hard and has posted wonderful graphics . Same thing can be said for cynic. I quite believe it was just innocently done without some serious thought because he was so caught up with it all.

    I couldn't get over the newspaper comic strips of that play they had put on about JonBenét. I was really grossed out with that scene. I don't know if it's still on the boards here(?). You better avoid it dear friend.
  5. BOESP

    BOESP Member

    Excellent OTG! I've only tried the egg experiment with raw eggs back several years ago. I think it was either Rashomon or Jayelles that I tried to convince to do a "test-along" with me. Iirc, they declined. :hen:

    Seriously, it never occurred to me to try boiled eggs. I do know (from many decades of Easter Egg Experience) that cracking the egg onto a hard surface makes, mostly, a comminuted fracture without much in the way of linear fractures. The raw egg, struck onto a hard surface, will give something similar to that found on JonBenet (or at least it did when in my experiment ... 3-4 times), which consisted of both comminuted and linear fractures.
  6. wombat

    wombat Member

    I know, I'm sorry, I know fellow FFJ-ers work hard. I just got mad at the song. I'll be good from now on, Ms. Elle. Have a great weekend.
  7. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Oh my gosh, OTG!

    Chero sent me a guilt bomb ;) so thought I'd drop in. I was thinking of you just this week and wondering if you had worked out your experiment on this. I've been busy so haven't been by much lately, but I know you had worked on this a lot.

    I will catch up on this thread this weekend and look forward to seeing your results.
  8. Elle

    Elle Member

    I do understand your feelings wombat. I'm a sensitive person too. We are all different. We just have to deal with our feelings. Just let it blow away in the wind and have a nice weekend. Which part of Australia are you in? My son is in Leeming, Perth.
  9. heymom

    heymom Member

    The weapon

    You know, if only JonBenet's skull had fractured in a round pattern. Then it would have all made sense, what with Burke's comment that JonBenet had been hit with a hammer and strangled. He may well have made an inadvertent confession with that comment...
  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    You could be right here, heymom! (?). If Burke did do it, it would all still be in his head! Good thinking!
  11. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Of course it's just my speculation, but I think the prior molestation played a HUGE factor in the events that night.

    I believe...and it's only based on the evidence as I have seen it and interpret (Patsy at least) or both parents strangled JonBenet in the basement, by the paint tray, staging the "sexual assault" done that night with something, possibly the paint brush, because taking her to the ER would have revealed the prior molestation.

    I believe the one sexually assaulting JB before that night was a family member, someone who had access to her without suspicion and with time to do this.

    That's a short list.

    At any rate, I think that's why the child was finally strangled with that ligature: once it was clear she wasn't going to wake up and walk it off, I think those involved decided the ongoing sexual abuse was too scandalous, and possibly criminal, depending on the molester. So staging an intruder was the only way to lead LE away from the family.

    I have no way of knowing if the person(s) who actually strangled her thought she was already dead or thought she was dying too slowly--the clock was ticking, after all, with the pilot meeting the family at 7 am and the "big kids" soon to be awaiting their ride in Minneapolis.

    I do believe the person(s) knew she wasn't going to survive the head blow, at any rate.

    Those phone records...they would have told the tale, IMO.

    Hunter should have that inscribed on his tombstone: BUT FOR ME, JONBENET'S KILLER WOULD NOT HAVE WALKED AWAY.

    When her skull cracked so violently upon being bludgeoned, the die was cast, I think.

    Within a few days of the killing the media coverage blew up and the Ramseys, as well as the DA and LE in Boulder, suddenly found themselves in a very public firestorm they had no way of anticipating on Dec. 25/26th. I don't know the Ramseys--thank god--but I do believe their entire attempt at media manipulation came about because early on they thought people would just believe them, a "good Christian family."

    Then it turned into a public relations nightmare for them, in which JR was unemployable and Patsy was a Southern gothic figure of tragedy. I think it was in Patsy's nature to fight back, to try to control and manipulate the media--that was her professional degree, pageant, and business experience, after all.

    Finally, it could be that she and/or they saw a needed financial opportunity to benefit with the sale of photograph licensing, their book, and professional speaking engagements--maybe a seat in Congress! Maybe they thought they'd throw suspicion off of Burke, which might have been their major concern from minute one, if he was involved in any of these horrible abuses of his sister: he was Patsy's only living child, after all, and she had no ability to have more.

    But ultimately, I think it may be as simple as Patsy and John were upwardly-mobile, successful, competitive people who MUST win, who MUST control the outcome for their own benefits.

    That could be why this all went down the way it did: having a child molested, perhaps a victim of incest--a great taboo, then killed in a violent accident (or murdered) was not acceptable to them as their self-sponsored place in family history, I imagine.

    No, humility and taking responsiblity don't seem to be something in which the Ramseys were interested. They lived in heady company--Lockheed Martin exec's., computer and software companies forging the future...with fortunes not only earned, but inevitable.

    What a fall to take from prestigious grace....

    Of course, as I said, all speculation of mine. But it's all that makes sense to me.
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    Good lord! If Chero hadn't come and busted me out of the Old Pyrates Home, I would have died thinking you'd been captured and hanged by the Queen!

    And here you are, using big words like "mandibular" and Geometry! Clearly my pyrate-skills are being challenged!

    But oh, how impressive your Halloween booty is. Moving right along....
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    OMG! First, you are a very patient man, OTG. And creative, too!



    OKay, I know I'm asking...BEGGING for it.... :couch:

    Alls I can say is...PYRATE! :pirate:

    I find your demonstrations really informing, OTG. I'm only on page 4, but I'm working it. I am!
  14. heymom

    heymom Member

    KK, what if Patsy and John did not realize there had been previous abuse? What if what was done to JonBenet was carried out in the basement by the perpetrator, all alone, once she was unconscious? We've always said that the cord and handle were amateurishly done. What if...the train track had been stabbed into JonBenet to try and wake her up? What if...certain other things were done once the perpetrator realized that JonBenet wasn't getting up again, and wasn't able to stop him? And what if, the end act was to try and solve the problem with the cord and paintbrush handle?

    And then Patsy found the scene, and the coverup began. She must have found it before she went to bed, because she never changed clothes from what she wore to the party the night before.

    I'm pondering this scenario more and more in my mind. For one thing, it's hard for me to imagine any parent actually undertaking to finish off one's child. Patsy and John were not sociopaths, after all. I think it would take a mindset very different from either of them to actually do such a thing, and be reasonably calm and composed the rest of the morning. But if she had already been someone else's hand...

    Of course, that would mean that Burke's DNA would be all over the crime scene, and maybe it was, and because he was under the age of culpability, this could not be divulged.

    The more I think about it, the more this explains some of the kinks that I've always stumbled over, such as how any parent, who loves their child (and for what it's worth, I do believe that both Patsy and John loved all of their children) could put a cord around her neck and tighten it until she stopped breathing.

    Or even stab a paintbrush into her vagina.
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, heymom, I understand how it's hard to "imagine" loving parents doing any of these things to a child, but I fear that's a stumbling block to the truth in this case. I personally try very hard not to include my own set of experiences and values into what I think these parents did or did not do.

    Unfortunately, parents who consider themselves loving do great mental and physical damage to their children every day. And not just poor, uneducated people, either. If you've never read Marilyn Van Derbur's book, Miss America By Day, I have often recommended it as a real eye-opener about what some parents can and will do to their children. Often these abusive parents profess to love those children they abuse; they and others who know them can believe that, as well--often even the victims. As you know, it's very complicated, these sick relationships.

    I have considered the theory that Burke committed all the acts against JonBenet in the basement, even the strangulation, and the parents then staged the rest. The only way that accounts for all the evidence is if he actually at least strangled JonBenet beside the paint tray, as well, since the evidence implies that she was laid by that paint tray where the paintbrush was broken and tied onto the ligature. If it was in fact first inserted into her vagina before it was broken, which seems an intuitive sequence of events to me, and if it came from the paint tray, as it was broken beside the paint tray, which the shards on the carpet imply, that is where I feel these two things happened.

    Also, if her bladder evacuated upon death there, which Lou Smit said her urine was found on the carpet there outside the door, then that appears to me to be where she was also strangled and died.

    With the presents in the cellar room unwrapped, with Burke's fingerprints on the pineapple bowl, with his and Patsy's DNA on the gown...or was it the blanket?--in the cellar room with the body, it's not an unsupported theory, I agree.

    But my problem is this: JonBenet's blood--from her nose, possibly---on her pillowcase on her bed in her room; also Burke's pj bottoms in the floor of her bedroom. Then there is the disarray around her bedroom, in the laundry area outside it, and in JAR's bathroom, which gives me pause: drawers left open, diapers hanging out of the cabinet, etc. I can't discount all this.

    If those were part of the violence against JB that night, if that head blow happened upstairs, for example, and that's how her blood got on her pillowcase, then who carried her down two flights of stairs to the basement and laid her by the paint tray?

    I don't believe Burke could have done that. 50 lbs. of dead weight for him would have been a load, I think. He was much taller than she, but still not quite ten and thin, himself.

    Of course, I'm speculating. But Patsy is all over the paint tray, the duct tape, her fibers tied into the ligature knots, her fingerprints on the bowl of pineapple, her DNA on the gown in the cellar room, and probably much more we haven't been told. She clearly lied like Jodi Arias every time she opened her mouth.

    In fact, watching Jodi Arias on the witness stand makes me think of Patsy.

    Anyway, it's all open for interpretation and I'm not expert, but these are the things that still bother me about who did what that night.

    [PS Sorry I've edited this so much. Hubs kept interrupting me while I was writing it, and many starts and stops ended in a hot mess.]
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2013
  16. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I know I'm bringing up the rear here, so I apologize if my thoughts/observations are already hashed out by the rest of you great sleuths.

    But you've given me a few thoughts I want to get down before they fly away with the rest of my memory. :beammeup:

    Some pieces of the evidence that are specific to your questions/ponderings:

    --Pineapple: in the digestive tract, puts the timeline of her eating it before death at 1 to 2 hrs; found on a bowl on the table with Patsy's and Burke's fingerprints, along with a glass of tea with Burke's prints.

    --Skull/brain injury: I believe Kolar and other experts have put the timeline for that injury's development--swelling of the brain, bleeding, etc.--at 1 to 2 hours.

    --A neighbor said he saw strange lights in the house when up in the dark of early morning which was unlike the usual lighting he had seen through their windows at that time.

    The argument that the parents might not have known about the head injury is what has jogged my thoughts.

    On the other hand, what if one or more was present when that blow happened, or nearby, and not only knew about it, but knew immediately?

    And what if that was not long after the family returned home, at the time or shortly after the children were having a snack of pineapple and tea?

    Of course, there was very possibly a "child's scream", if the later evasive neighbor was initially correct in her report of hearing it. If that was true, the parents could have heard it, as well. Surely they'd have responded immediately to see what had happened.

    Just brainstorming here, of course, but that would put the event on a timeline that is supported by the evidence.

    1. Pineapple eaten.

    2. Headblow.

    3. Two hours later, strangulation.

    4. Rigor mortis upon discovery in the basement at 1 pm approx. 12+ hours development.

    Am I making any sense here?

    I guess the issue I'm focusing on is the flashlight and whether it necessarily was the weapon used, or was used to get around in the basement at some point for one reason or another, or just part of the cover-up.

    If this head-blow happened before the first floor lights were turned off--as if normally for the night but in fact not leaving the usual night-lighting on--that would explain something that has bothered me for a while.

    Let's imagine the kids were fighting as siblings do, the devastating blow was struck, JB screamed before or right after--before collapsing. The parents are present, realize they have other issues critical to them--she has been molested and that will be found out in an ER.

    So they spend the next 2 hours making calls, making decisions to stage an intruder, expecting the child to expire any moment.

    Whether they believed she had expired or whether they decided she could feel no pain and the priority was staging an intruder and calling 911 in time to make it all plausible, they cut the houselights and used the flashlight--"strange lights" to move around to do the deeds in the house and downstairs because they might be seen if the normal "night" lighting was on and turning on the basement lights might be noticed by a neighbor, as well.

    In that case, the flashlight may or may not be involved in the head-blow.

    I know this is a lot of speculating and it's really a "for instance" example to account for the issues with the house lights and possibly the flashlight being used for something other than the head-blow.

    Now I, too, am working towards OTG's outcome, so color me RED if he has concluded THE FLASHLIGHT was used to strike the child. :blush:
  17. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I don't know what BBM means. :help:

    Here's my problem with a "fall" or "thrown or shoved onto an object" theory: where are the bruises, fractures, or other indications of that kind of velocity and impact on the body?

    If her head impacted something with that kind of force, enough to break her skull nearly in half, what happened to the rest of her body traveling through space?

    It didn't just stop when her skull hit, in mid-air, suspended.

    It also would have had an impact. Perhaps the head would have slowed it down a fraction, but the body weighed much more than the head, and it would have to have been moving at the same velocity as her head.

    Remember the impact was on the right rear, near top center of her head, not on the side. So the impact had to come from the direction opposite that injury.

    How could she fall on top of her head and not have any damage to her neck bones, no bruising when the rest of her body hit the same surface at that speed?

    Maybe I'm not able to clearly explain what I mean, but I'm thinking of a the impact of a car collision on the human body. When a car is traveling at a velocity and is suddenly stopped by a fixed surface, like a wall, the damage to the body often is from the force on the tissues and bones being jerked in first one direction, then another. Whiplash is one example. Princess Diana died from that force, as it tore the tissues connecting her heart to the blood-paths, causing her to bleed out internally, if memory serves.

    This is why I have trouble with the "high impact" theory. I haven't seen other evidence to support this. The contre coup injury to the front of the brain is minimal and can be explained with a high-velocity rear blow to the head, as well, as I understand it.

    I believe you also describe a possible "squeezed" skull scenario, like using a vise. I can't imagine Burke would have had that kind of force or weight, but maybe you have something else in mind?

    As for the puncture not being very deep, I believe the length of the skull crack is evidence that the skull absorbed the tremendous force of that blow, which is why it cracked 8.5 inches. That could account for a lack of a deep puncture, possibly? Especially if the weapon didn't hit with a deep protrusion, but more of a curve, as OTG's experiments are illustrating?

    Though of course, I may be absolutely wrong. If Wombat can't swear to it, I'm putting my hands in my pockets and :whistle:
  18. heymom

    heymom Member

    As far as the scream, if it happened, it would have had to be before the head blow, UNLESS JonBenet ended up semi-conscious, but she would probably have had at least some bleeding through her nose and/or ears in that case. Blood tries to find an exit from inside the skull and the nearest opening would have been her ears, I think. It's hard to believe that Patsy and/or John could have been that careful as to wipe all the blood out of her ears after she'd died, but I suppose it could have happened.

    The reason I say that her scream (which is unverified) must have happened before the head blow is that when my son fell off his skateboard, striking his head on the pavement, and fracturing his skull, he was knocked out for a few minutes. He gradually came to, and THEN he began screaming, but not a real scream - it's more like a keening, eerie sort of scream. If JonBenet had been doing this, I think Patsy and John would have had to call 911.

    However, I don't believe that after the headblow, JonBenet became conscious again. So IF the scream happened, I am inclined to believe that JonBenet was being chased or she saw what was coming at her.

    KK, as far as the mess upstairs - I think it could easily have been just Patsy's normal mess, and not picking up after getting ready for the party. The blood on JonBenet's pillow? Was it determined that it was fresh? I can easily imagine anything in either kid's room to be old mess. Yes, even Burke's pajama bottoms.

    I don't believe anything happened to JonBenet in her bedroom or in the kitchen, that night or early morning. I think it all took place there in the basement. JMO, of course.
  19. BOESP

    BOESP Member

    KK, "BBM" means "bolded by me."

    The high pressure opinion doesn't necessarily mean I believe someone threw JonBenet or even fell on her. To me, the wound suggests a low velocity (low speed) trauma (either by a moving object or by JonBenet being the moving object) accompanied by a relatively high pressure event, which would be needed to fracture her skull in the way it appears with a relatively undamaged underlying area in the lining of the brain and the brain itself based on a low velocity trauma. This high pressure is relative to the impact being low velocity.

    If she had been struck hard enough to cause the damage we see in the skull fracture then the velocity of the weapon should have created an enormous trauma to the underlying areas under the skull cover. Her brain would exhibit an enormous amount of trauma, which, relatively speaking, it did not (in my opinion). Think of a bullet wound which is high velocity/low pressure. Or think of an axe as the weapon, or a hammer. If swung hard enough to make an 8/5" fracture, the underlying brain tissue should show a lot more damage than what the autopsy reports.

    Also, the fracture is linear rather than horizontal. It runs from back to front instead of right to left of the entry point.

    The autopsy report and photos coupled with what Steve Thomas wrote fit the low velocity-high pressure scenario. Her being hit with something in a way to cause the linear skull fracture should have done a lot more underlying damage (which doesn't fit the autopsy report and photos).

    I could be wrong but her autopsy isn't going to change my mind unless there's something in the redacted parts that shows it to be something other than low velocity-high pressure. :gavel:
  20. heymom

    heymom Member

    This, I totally agree with. I have been trying to imagine how HARD that sort of contact would have been, and regardless of what Steve Thomas believed, I do not think that it could have happened that way. In a small bathroom, even a large and powerful man would have had a hard time getting enough momentum to swing a child into one of the fixtures. Nor can I picture how the TOP and REAR of her skull would have made contact, and not the side or front of her head/skull.

    If she'd been swung into the side of the toilet for example, there would have been bruising and swelling, and I do not believe that such a contact would have cracked her skull almost in half. I have stated this several times, but my son's head struck asphalt pavement going 5-10 mpg and he got a mild-to-moderate skull fracture behind his right ear. He had road rash on his shoulder (he was wearing a t-shirt). He had no scalp lacerations (he had long hair at the time, skater-kid hair). He bled from his right ear. He regained consciousness over time, but does not remember the helicopter ride to the trauma hospital. He had almost no brain swelling (thank God!), but the outside of his head DID swell in that area. He was kept in NICU for 2 days for observation. He was very sleepy for most of that time, and even after he was discharged, he still slept about 15-17 hours a day for the first several days. But then he gradually stayed awake more and more and recovered fully within a few weeks (apart from a permanent loss of most of his sense of smell, which is common with head injuries, and a slight reduction in hearing in his right ear).

    I go into that detail to let you know that it's not easy to explain such a catastrophic injury like JonBenet's extreme skull fracture. I think she was struck, hard, and intentionally. Not an accident, but done out of anger, possibly hatred, and I am unsure of the culpability of the person who struck her. Rage? Or just cold and more sociopathic? I don't know, and I don't think we will ever know. But I cannot believe it was any form of accident.
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