Keenan/Ramsey Interview re Santa Bill (excerpt) - June 25, 1998

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    14 PAGES 626 - 666
    18 JUNE 25TH, 1998
    25 MARY KEENAN: I just have a list of
    1 questions.
    2 DAN SHULER: Because you were writing
    3 those down. What's the purpose of this whole
    4 thing? Okay, the purpose is we want to talk to
    5 you to gain additional information about Bill
    6 McReynolds, which has kind of peaked our interest
    7 a bit. And we want to do everything we can to
    8 solve this case for you.
    9 So what we'd like to do is, Mary Keenan has a
    10 lot of questions that she has after viewing the
    11 interviews about Bill and I know you have some
    12 concerns yourself about Bill, and we'd like to
    13 bring this out in the open so we don't forget
    14 what we're doing and what we're focusing on. So
    15 we don't forget any minute item. All right.
    16 You want to just talk a little bit about Bill to
    17 start?
    18 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, we met him on the
    19 mall around three years before December '96. He
    20 was walking around in a Santa suit passing out
    21 candy. We stopped and talked.
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: We were in a (INAUDIBLE)
    23 deli, he came in.
    24 JOHN RAMSEY: Is that -- okay.
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: We were having
    1 breakfast.
    2 And we talked. I believe he was employed by the
    3 downtown Boulder Chamber of Commerce or something
    4 to be on the mall and greeting people and
    5 whatever.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: And, I don't know that it
    7 was the same year, I don't know that it was, that
    8 we invited him to our house.
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah, I think so; '94,
    10 for a Christmas party.
    11 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. And the whole
    12 procedure was, he would come in and the kids would
    13 all be there. And we'd (INAUDIBLE) and Patsy had a
    14 list of gifts that he's pass out. He usually had a
    15 little saying or something kind saying, something
    16 silly: oh, you've been really good, did this, or
    17 you've been bad, you did this. I guess we had
    18 gifts for the adults sometimes.
    19 So he would sit and give out these gifts, and the
    20 kids would sit around and he'd read them a story.
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: He also came to adult
    22 parties. We had tons of pictures sitting Santa's
    23 knee, playing that whole role.
    24 DAN SHULER: Would that be at the same
    25 time or at different times?
    1 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, some Christmases
    2 we had three or four different parties and one
    3 might be primarily adults, and he would come just
    4 to be part of kind of like a little feature at the
    5 party, and all the ladies would sit on his knee
    6 and get their picture taken and whatnot.
    7 And then typically closer to Christmas, like
    8 Christmas Eve, like in the year of '96 , we'd have
    9 just a few close friends who had children. And we
    10 had Santa come and we'd do the naughty and nice
    11 list, and the gifts and all that.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: But JonBenet, of course,
    13 was fascinated with him because he was Santa Claus
    14 and I remember one year she led him around the
    15 house and showed him a bunch of things, I don't
    16 know what. But she just took him by the hand and
    17 led him around.
    18 '95, I guess we called him and invited him back
    19 for the regular party. '96 we weren't going to
    20 have a party. He called us, I guess you probably
    21 heard that, and said that Charles Kuralt was doing
    22 a special on him and he wanted to bring him to our
    23 party because it was one of his favorites. And
    24 will we have it.
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean, I really hadn't
    1 planned on it, but you know, he'd do it for free,
    2 and I said, "I suppose I could. So we decided on
    3 the 23rd. He suggested we have it earlier because
    4 he had another engagement that evening.
    5 JOHN RAMSEY: And Mrs. Claus came with
    6 him on that visit. That's the only time she's been
    7 to our house.
    8 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: I remembered thinking
    10 that
    11 she was really kind of --
    12 PATSY RAMSEY: Drippy.
    13 JOHN RAMSEY: -- a drip. She really
    14 wasn't with it. She was just there, almost acting
    15 kind of irritated to be there. Didn't smile much
    16 at all.
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: I thought she was there
    18 because he was he --
    19 JOHN RAMSEY: He came in and said he
    20 was frail and his wife was there to help him.
    21 DAN SHULER: Was he frail?
    22 JOHN RAMSEY: Not if he was in New York
    23 a week later and off to Europe a few weeks later.
    24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
    25 JOHN RAMSEY: I mean, I don't think.
    1 The hypothesis in my mind was, it was all a big
    2 act.
    3 DAN SHULER: What year was it that
    4 JonBenet took him around the house and showed him
    5 the house?
    6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, it was the
    7 preceding year of this; so it would have been
    8 probably '95.
    9 JOHN RAMSEY: Did she take him around
    10 at all that, maybe, in '96? Could you remember?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: No, because he wasn't
    12 there very long. He just came to the living room
    13 there and sat in that chair.
    14 JOHN RAMSEY: Where was Mrs. Claus?
    15 PATSY RAMSEY: She was behind him,
    16 there.
    17 MARY KEENAN: What was the story with
    18 Charles Kuralt and did that materialize?
    19 PATSY RAMSEY: They never came to our house.
    20 However, there was an article in the Camera about
    21 -- cause I thought, when he called about that, I
    22 thought: that's a little strange. I mean, why did
    23 they pick him of all the Santas in the world or
    24 whatever. And then, lo and behold, it was in the
    25 paper that --
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, he might have told
    2 the paper the same thing.
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. We can go
    4 back and look at that timeframe for the paper
    5 article.
    6 JOHN RAMSEY: In December '96.
    7 MARY KEENAN: Do you remember what you
    8 paid him and how you paid him?
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: Check. Usually $20, $25,
    10 $20 to $50.
    11 MARY KEENAN: What did you know about
    12 his surgery?
    13 PATSY RAMSEY: Just this letter that
    14 said
    15 he had open-heart surgery. And then I got this
    16 when we got home for the lake that year. And
    17 subsequently, a few, I don't know some days later,
    18 I stuck my head into the little bakery, you know,
    19 down there at Basemar Shopping Center, where is
    20 son is a baker. And I said, "How's your dad? How
    21 was his surgery?" And he said they'd almost lost
    22 him a couple of times. That it was pretty tense.
    23 MARY KEENAN: And had it been by
    24 Christmas or had it been several months, three or
    25 four months?
    1 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, it says right here,
    2 "I'm going into, next Tuesday, St. Joseph
    3 Hospital," and it's August 23rd. So way August.
    4 DAN SHULER: So, if I'm understanding
    5 right, the first time he was in your home was
    6 the Christmas season of '94?
    7 PATSY RAMSEY: Um hmm.
    8 DAN SHULER: He returned in '95, then
    9 again in '96. Now, was he in your home any other
    10 times from '94 through '96?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, '94, two days
    12 after Christmas -- I remember this because it was
    13 after this was the year we had the big Christmas
    14 tour of our house. Okay. And he showed up at the
    15 door a couple days after Christmas with a small
    16 gingerbread house which the bakery, his son, had
    17 made. And he knew how much we loved Christmas, and
    18 he wanted to give this to us.
    19 So I invited him in. I said, "How am going to
    20 explain that you're here to the kids." And he
    21 told the children that he was Santa's brother who
    22 lived in Netherlands and took care of the reindeer
    23 throughout the year.
    24 DAN SHULER: Okay.
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: And that Santa said what
    1 a good time he had had at our house and all that
    2 stuff.
    3 DAN SHULER: Did JonBenet see him when
    4 he brought the gingerbread house at that time?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: Um hmm. Yeah.
    6 DAN SHULER: And what was her reaction
    7 to him?
    8 PATSY RAMSEY: You know, not like --
    9 because he wasn't like Santa Claus at that time.
    10 He looked sort of kind of like Santa Claus but.
    11 They didn't --
    12 DAN SHULER: And did you tell her that
    13 story?
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. He told Burke and
    15 JonBenet.
    16 DAN SHULER: Did Burke still believe in
    17 Santa Claus at that time?
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    19 DAN SHULER: And, what about later?
    20 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, --
    21 DAN SHULER: When did he start --
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: We've never really even
    23 discussed that. Cause I've always said, when they
    24 quit believing, he'd stop coming.
    25 DAN SHULER: Oh.
    1 PATSY RAMSEY: So it was to their advantage
    2 to continue to believe.
    3 JOHN RAMSEY: Plus you get gifts from
    4 Santa and gifts from mom and dad.
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: He did too. As a matter of
    6 fact, sometimes I'd say, "Well, what did you get
    7 me?"
    8 DAN SHULER: Did you ever run into him
    9 outside your house during Christmas season:
    10 downtown, in the mall, wherever he might be
    11 working?
    12 PATSY RAMSEY: I saw him at a Christmas
    13 parade. He was at a Christmas parade.
    14 DAN SHULER: Which year?
    15 PATSY RAMSEY: It would have been '95
    16 probably. It would have been '95.
    17 DAN SHULER: Was JonBenet in the Christmas
    18 parade?
    19 PATSY RAMSEY: She was in the Christmas
    20 parade.
    21 DAN SHULER: And what was that contact like?
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean I just saw him on the
    23 float; he waved or something.
    24 DAN SHULER: Did he come over and see you,
    25 or did he come over and see JonBenet?
    2 DAN SHULER: Did you notice, what you were
    3 to think back on now, as any unusual affection
    4 that he had towards her?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, this '96 Christmas when
    6 he was there telling the story about, well his
    7 rendition of Christmas sort of, and how -- and I
    8 remember sort at the conclusion, sort of, and I
    9 mean (INAUDIBLE) this little story he spins, you
    10 know. But I remember him specifically, and here in
    11 a room full of children, say, "JonBenet, where is
    12 Santa," and I'm not sure if he said, "Where is
    13 Santa," or "Where is Christmas kept all year long,
    14 JonBenet?" And she said, "In your heart." And he
    15 said, "That's right."
    16 And I thought: well, how did she know where it was
    17 kept. Yeah. I mean, it was kind of like something
    18 he had told her before. I mean, it just kind of
    19 hit me at that moment. He was like: JonBenet, and
    20 she was like: in your heart.
    21 DAN SHULER: (INAUDIBLE) the sprinkle
    22 gesture. I think that John had referred to it was
    23 kind of like the dust that make the reindeer fly,
    24 is how he phrased it?
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, Santa has this glitter
    1 in his beard. And I think that prompted JonBenet.
    2 She knew that he kept glitter in the craft shelf
    3 in the basement there. I think she took him
    4 downstairs to give him the bottle of this Disney
    5 fairy dust to sprinkle.
    6 And we had several bottles of it because I think
    7 they used it for some promotion at the office one
    8 year. Cause you brought a couple bottles home from
    9 Frontier or something like that. Cause you and my
    10 dad brought a bottle over. We had a couple of
    11 them, two or three. And I think she may have given
    12 him another one this '96 Christmas.
    13 DAN SHULER: Could you describe that bottle?
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: It's just like a little genie
    15 bottle, like a little --
    16 DAN SHULER: Hourglass?
    17 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, not even like a an
    18 hourglass, but like a vinegar curette or
    19 something, sort off.
    20 DAN SHULER: Wider at the bottom?
    21 PATSY RAMSEY: Wider at the bottom, tapers
    22 through the top, cork in the top.
    23 DAN SHULER: That's what Burke had described
    24 to me when we were talking.
    25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.
    1 DAN SHULER: Did she give that to him on the
    2 23rd?
    3 PATSY RAMSEY: I believe she gave him a
    4 second bottle then. Because then at the memorial
    5 service, Father Rol asked, I think, and I mean I
    6 was pretty out of it, but I think he asked if
    7 anyone wanted to say anything or had any fond
    8 memories, or something, of JonBenet and up walks
    9 up Santa Claus, as Bill McReynolds at this point.
    10 He's not in red and white. And I can't remember
    11 what he said.
    12 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember either. We
    13 have a video of it, but (INAUDIBLE) of giving us
    14 back this bottle of fairy dust. We aught to be
    15 sure you have that video so you can look at it. I
    16 assume that Ellis' office has it?
    18 (INAUDIBLE)?
    20 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Jennifer believes,
    21 in fact, that it has been turned over. But we'll
    22 check and be sure.
    23 JOHN RAMSEY: Okay.
    24 DAN SHULER: The presents; how would
    25 you give the presents to him to pass out to the
    1 children?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: I left them in a kind of a
    3 garbage bag out by the front door hidden. And then
    4 he would come fill his bag with them so he had
    5 them as he came in the door.
    6 DAN SHULER: And what about the prearranged
    7 notes? Would he rehearse through? Did you
    8 (INAUDIBLE) to him?
    9 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I would just float
    10 that to him. I mean It was just written out and
    11 he'd just read it.
    12 DAN SHULER: You mean like it was just
    13 Santa's list?
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
    15 DAN SHULER: Would he bring like any small
    16 items himself to pass out to the children other
    17 than what you provided for him?
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: It seems like he may have
    19 brought candy canes, or had asked me to have candy
    20 canes to give to them. Seems like I remember candy
    21 canes.
    22 DAN SHULER: If you happen to think of
    23 anything like that, let us know, like later on.
    24 Cause we have an interest in that. What about to
    25 any of her pageants that she had? Would he ever
    1 show up to any of those?
    2 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I never saw him.
    3 DAN SHULER: Would he ever show up to any
    4 other functions of hers that you were aware of?
    5 PATSY RAMSEY: No. Well, he kind of stood
    6 out in a crowd, so he wouldn't have been able to
    7 hide. I never saw him.
    8 DAN SHULER: Did he ever go to any school
    9 Christmas pageant or anything like that? Now was
    10 he the Santa Claus of the Boulder theater?
    11 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm not sure. Like that
    12 Christmas pageant they had there?
    13 DAN SHULER: Yes.
    14 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember. I'm don't
    15 know.
    16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't know for sure, but
    17 that kind of --
    18 PATSY RAMSEY: They probably tape of that, I
    19 know.
    20 JOHN RAMSEY: But that kind of rings a bell
    21 in my mind.
    22 PATSY RAMSEY: Could have been.
    23 DAN SHULER: when he had the children
    24 passing out presents and things like that would he
    25 whisper anything into their ear or anything as he
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