Lawyering JonBenet

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Spade, Sep 5, 2006.

  1. Elle

    Elle Member

    AYE, THERE'S THE RUB, koldkase!
  2. Elle

    Elle Member

    Good grief! No one needs to draw us any pictures after reading this lot, do they posters of FFJ?

    Thank you, Spade!
  3. Tril

    Tril Member

    Originally posted by Spade:

    Can you verify this? What's your source for this statement?
  4. Spade

    Spade Member


    As I posted earlier, several years ago I asked a friend who has served our country for many years, to try to get the 12/25-26/96 phone records for John Ramsey, Mike Bynum, Bryan Morgan, and Peter Hofstrom. When he accessed the database, he found that everyone of the requested records had been "sealed" by order of the White House.

    This does not mean that President Clinton was directly involved. However, Hal Haddon represented Bill and Hillary in "Whitewater" related tax matters.

    Hope that answers your question.
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Egypt is looking pretty good to me about now, actually....
  6. Elle

    Elle Member

    Fixed for sure, Spade! This just keeps getting worse, doesn't it? Something's got to give!
  7. Spade

    Spade Member

    IMO Why

    I would like to give you my opinion as to why the tragedy of JonBenet's death has been lawyered the way it has. This is only my opinion...

    I don't know who killed JonBenet Ramsey. I can develop arguable cases against several people. However, I do believe that John and Patsy Ramsey knew the killer(s) and were willing to assist them in covering up the circumstances of JonBenet's death.

    1. Mike Bynum told Fleet White that Haddon and Morgan were handling things and that he should stay out of it. (As Fleet told me, that is when “the intimidation beganâ€.)

    "Handling things" is also a direct quote from Fleet White. IMO the death of JonBenet was not a prosecutable event. If the Door #3 timeline is accurate, and John Ramsey called Bynum in the middle of the night...then Bynum's first logical act is to research the law on the circumstances of JonBenet's death as they were related to him by John Ramsey. If the results of Bynum's research was to discover that the person (s) who caused JonBenet's death are not prosecutable...the Ramsey's need a lawyer to "handle things. Haddon and Morgan were the perfect choice.

    2. Hofstrom and DeMuth spent the early days of the case taking phone calls in Bynum’s office (per ST’s book).

    The fix was in already and Hofstrom and DeMuth didn't want to get trapped in a tapped phone in the DA's office.

    3. Haddon had his PI’s on the street early AM 12/27/96, often beating the BPD to witnesses.
    Haddon job was to obfuscate the facts. He did it well.

    I'll start a new post on #4 thru #11
  8. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    Hey Spade! Good to see you again, my friend! This is quite the bombshell you've dropped and I've no reason to question your sources or claims. But you know me, gotta add my two cents but would love to read your comments on them.

    First of all, let me address the intimidation of Fleet White within 4 hours after the body was "found." Think about it, FFJ'ers, any homicide can be solved and successfully prosecuted by 3 very profound pieces of evidence: (1) a confession that supports the evidence; (2) forensic, actually DNA evidence, linking a suspect to the crime itself, and (3) a solid witness. Most of the time in homicide cases, these very vital pieces of evidence don't exist or are, at very best, circumstantial, leaving a wide room for reasonable doubt.

    But in the Ramsey case, there WAS a very solid witness, the heretofore best friend of John Ramsey who was at his side through four very crucial events in the case: (1) the Whites Christmas party where they last saw JB alive; (2) the basement window and suitcase "intruder evidence"; (3) the first thorough search of the Hellhole, and more importantly, (4) the "discovery" of the body and crime scene (the "dump" site portion). At the point where the body was "found," JR was sure that no DNA evidence could be extracted because they wiped the body down. And he was hellbent sure there would be no confession by anyone while he was glued to Patsy's side until she took her last breath ensuring that there would be no confession. The only remaining critical piece of evidence that could have ever convicted any Ramsey was Fleet White and his FIRSTHAND EYEWITNESS testimony not to the crimes themselves but every other feature of this case that could have conclusively led to a successful prosecution. Bynum did not have to do any legal research. Bynum is a very well educated and long experienced attorney who heard a client explanation of a homicide. He knew instantly what was going on like any seasoned attorney would, where the "weak links" in a defense case were and what had to be done. He may have been on the ski slopes when he got the cell call, but don't think for a NY minute he had to spend any time checking the law books or getting Haddon on the line. I've done it, I've seen it done, and it all happens in a NY minute lining up a solid defense for a wealthy client. AND intimidating the ONLY person who could unravel the entire defense. Fleet didn't even have to open his mouth; his goose was literally cooked just by the fact that he was crucially involved. That's it. Fleet White posed the ONLY non-eradicating threat to Ramsey freedom and, as we've all come to know Fleet over the years, he would never succumb to intimidation by anyone. That's why we all love the man, he has integrity that puts the Rock of Gibraltar to shame.

    Now as to the Ramseys' phone records, according to ST, BPD made a very early formal request to AH, a tight friend of Haddon's and Bynum's, for a subpoena for phone records. AH did not decline the request but just didn't act on it. As KK posted earlier, it took a year for BPD to get legal access to them only to discover that the crucial records for the month preceding and during JB's death were missing, not sealed under any order. I've long posted WHO in Boulder Backwoods Colorado had the power to get the phone company to erase a customer's phone records. There was no need to get any order from anyone outside CO, not even the White House, because Haddon has and always will as long as he's alive the absolute right power connections in CO to make things appear and disappear at will. Why would he? Was it to assist innocent parents cover up the death of their daughter in protection of their son? Or was it a favor to Access Graphics bigwigs who didn't want any embarassment? And who called off the FBI? My guess is it was all about JR's money. Period.

    Furthermore, the White House is not part of the judicial system in this country and therefore doesn't have the authority to order anything. That's why it takes an act of Congress to get anything done. The only order that can be issued at the White House level is an executive order, and that can only be done by any sitting U.S. president. So in order for there to be an "order" sealing Ramsey phone records, it would have been the president himself to issue it. That's not gonna happen. One, it would be political suicide and two, it leaves a paper trail of presidential involvement in the coverup of a crime, a highly prosecutable offense even for a president.

    Does that mean that someone else in the White House could "off the record" accomplish the same purpose? I have no doubt that happens every day. No phone records, nothing in writing arranging it, no evidence of even a phone call discussing it. But BPD could not possibly have seen something that didn't exist, phone records or an off-the-record arrangement to delete them.

    Think about this also. Those phone records would still exist even if they were under any kind of seal. That means they would always remain vulnerable to exposure should the seal be breached or revoked, which is ALWAYS a possiblity given enough time. If I wanted to hide vital info that would convict my clients, would I take that risk? Or would it be far more prudent to just use my nefarious power to have them ERASED? I'm no Hal Haddon, but I'd opt to erase, not preserve, even under seal. No one would EVER be the wiser and my clients would forever be protected from that incriminating evidence.

    It is SOP to get phone records in homicide cases. Happens every day, multiple times a day, in every state in this country, by simple subpoena. And the phone companies comply with them every day. Why not this case? Wouldn't the Ramseys and their lawyers WANT phone records disclosed if they truly believed someone else killed their daughter and just might have contacted the family prior? And wouldn't it be especially crucial for the Ramseys and their team to encourage receipt of phone records for the 26th and 27th when they were, at that time, insisting that this was a kidnapping and the kidnappers were going to call for the ransom money? Yet those records suddenly vanished as well! It's just like why the Ramseys refused to permit JB's body to be exhumed so that Lou could PROVE his stun gun theory. They knew damn well no stun gun was ever used on their daughter and couldn't take the risk. Also bear in mind that there were at least 2 sets of phone records to be gotten in this case, cell phone records and land line records. ALL were missing! And we've never heard a word about any efforts to obtain phone records for JR's office number at AG. How interesting is THAT?

    Lastly, let me say that at the time this lawyering network was formed, either before or after the "discovery" of the body, none of these players ever anticipated that this case would become the giant pariah to their clients that it has for 10 years. At that point, we cannot infuse their motives with any conceptualization of it or else we will miss true motive by all of them.

    While there is no doubt the lawyer power network in CO is not only incestuous but traverses up and down the local and national network, it does not seem necessary to call in presidents, congressmen, and other higher ups to make what happened happen, not when the network is well embedded in the community and has been operating successfully for many years prior to JB's death. It makes for sensational news and gossip and speculation, but defies the confines of reality in Boulder in 1996.

    The weak link in any Ramsey defense case was Fleet White and they certainly would not order a hit on the man to close that door. Time and events have proven that the power team has continually gone to great lengths to keep Fleet and Priscilla from ever telling what they know and, although we've all been desperate for them to do so, BECAUSE Fleet's testimony is the only thing that will ever convict any Ramsey, he is wise beyond the ages to keep silent. Now I know some will say, "Well, didn't the Whites testify before the Grand Jury?" The answer is, yes and no. The GJ proceedings were under the complete control of Alex Hunter and Foxy Roxy Bailin. Customary grand juries are not trials and therefore there is no one to cross examine a witness or be able to elicit any other testimony than what the prosecutor and judge want disclosed. Remember, the entire point of a grand jury is to hear the PROSECUTION's case and decide if he/she has enough to proceed to a trial. The Whites were questioned by AH or his associates and therefore their testimony was extremely limited and restricted to only that information they had that people already working for the Ramseys wanted the GJ to hear. Which was probably very little. So while the Whites did testify, their testimony was selective, by a Ramsey-friendly prosecutor. And in case HE allowed too much, Bailin was standing by to ensure only limited testimony squeaked out.

    The other weak links in Ramsey defense at that time were phone records, Burke's testimony and no credible evidence of an outsider. So they called in Lou Smit to create evidence of an intruder or at least enough circumstantial spin to create reasonable doubt in the minds of any jurors, grand or otherwise. They destroyed the phone records and what little testimony Burke was able to provide i.e., JB being awake when they arrived home, Hi-Tec boots, etc. was very easily overcome and obscured by Smit's intruder crap, which only in Boulder, was allowed to the Grand Jury.

    Fleet remains the only piece of evidence in this case to convict a Ramsey and that's the way it will remain until the power players and their chess pieces either die, retire or are otherwise removed from the case. Only when that happens and true objective eyes and hands are controlling it will Fleet have the opp to fully testify and justice be served.

    As for the original GJ judge who absconded to Egypt, make no mistake he did so out of fear. That assignment was his reward for leaving the GJ bench, my friends. Compliance reaps prominent assignments, great bucks and infamity. Noncompliance...well, nuff said.

    Most recently during the Karr Wreck, we have heard respected members of the BPD say publicly that there is no evidence in this case that has not been disclosed publicly. We also heard the Boulder district attorney and all her lawyer-friends who have long been intruder theorists also state publicly that there is no evidence in this case that has not been disclosed publicly. We knew that. We've known that for many, many years. Yet Spade keeps popping up periodically to remind us that HE has insider evidence that no one else on the planet has. Perhaps that is because the BPD and the BDA and every journalist in the world has not interviewed Spade.

    My friend, I would suggest you go talk to the BDA, the BPD and whatever other organization you can find who will listen, and present your insider evidence to them so this case can be solved once and for all. And don't stop till they do cuz justice for JonBenet is very long overdue.
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2006
  9. tylin

    tylin Banned

    DeJa Nu,
    What an informative and truly excellent post. :yay: :bowdown:
    Imo, your post should be a sticky---everyone following this case should read it.

    I found this portion particularly interesting. I highlighted in bold, 2 important sentences.:
  10. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    Thanks, Tylin. It just stands up to logic that if these parents really wanted to prove a stun gun, an intruder, a kidnapping for ransom, ALL the evidence that could prove them right was at their fingertips and their host of lawyers knew it. And they gave it all a big pass. There can only be one answer for why. :loser:

    And instead of easily going after the only evidence in existence to prove their statements true, they unleashed ridiculous Lou Smit, Ollie Gray, John St. Augustin, Michael Tracy and Lin Wood to spin one ridiculous, easily disproven intruder theory after another. Well there's ONE judgment call Hal Haddon et al totally :(:(:(:(ed up....More :loser:s
  11. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    I heard nothing from my "sources" of Clinton (the Democrat) "sealing" the Ramsey phone records. If he did, however, he is long gone now - I have dificulity understanding how Colorado Democrats have the clout to keep Republicans from releasing the phone records and opening a "juicey" Democrat scandal in Colorado.

    Don't get me wrong - I have no doubt Clinton (or any politician) would do this. I just have trouble believing the Republicans wouldn't happily open up this can of worms for Colorado Democrats.

    KoldKase - I was the first to post back in 1997(?) that John Ramsey did not follow protocol for a defense contractor employee when he called 911. I have pointed this out many, many times on several forums since then. How do I know this? I worked for defense contractors for over 30 years, and spent much of my later career working in security areas. I was not an executive, but if I got a letter saying my child has been kidnapped (even if they didn't ADMIT they were "a foreign faction"), I would have followed protocol. I would not have called friends to come to my house, I would not have called lawyers, and I would not have called 911. I would have called my company security and they would have taken the proper action. And, if I could not reach security for some reason, I would have called the FBI.

    In addition, if anyone in the FBI had believed a "foreign faction" was involved in the kidnapping and death of JonBenet Ramsey, they would have taken the case away from the BPD. PERIOD!!
  12. Deja Nu

    Deja Nu Banned

    Totally, totally true, Shadow. AND you would not permit your high-powered lawyers to pull their insider strings to have the FBI stand down while you're all over the TV demanding FBI presence because the local cops are dunces. :unreal:
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I have always appreciated your professional experience which you have shared with us, Shadow. What you say was the same thing said by the Denver lawyer who spoke about Lockheed Martin in particular, for whom he worked in security.

    I will always believe John Ramsey did call someone that morning, possibly Bynum, who was on retainer for AG and therefore connected to LM, too, I believe, before Patsy called 911. From there, I think the fix was in before the 911 call was ever made. JMO
  14. wombat

    wombat Member

    I agree completely. I also don't get why there's no US Dept of Justice investigation. I've been posting about this.

    In NJ we currently have a close Senate race between incumbent (appointed) Senator Bob Menendez and State Senator Tom Kean Jr, son of governor/911 commision chair Tom Kean. This is a race the Republicans think they might be able to win. Even though we are the bluest of blue states, Menendez might have a problem with ethics in his past (he comes from the deadly world of Hudson County politics, where Mary Lacy wouldn't even be able to stuff envelopes), and Tom Kean's daddy is beloved (Jr. himself is unknown).

    So, lo and behold this morning's headlines: Feds probe Menendez rental deal

    Remember, the Feds are GOP, and the Senator is a dem.

    So, where are the Feds in Colorado? Don't they have the same ones we do? Isn't there somebody the Republicans need to kill off - what better way than a nice Federal obstruction of justice charge?
  15. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    Right, Wombat. While my "sources" never said so, I always believed the "fix was in" back during the early days of the JBR case. I heard numerous times that some FBI Agents sent to Boulder to offer advice and help wanted the Justice Dept to open an obstruction of justice investigation but it went nowhere. This theory loses some validity given that since 2000 the Republicans have controlled all three branches of government with an iron fist and have shown they know how to use this power.

    BTW, I lived in NJ not far from the Mafia strong-hold of Morris Town. The guy I rented my house from was an Italian butcher (grocery store butcher-lol) who owned a nice home across the street from me and three houses he rented out. He also was a slum lord in Newark. Ocassionally, a big black limo would stop in front of his house and an old man and woman would visit. I always figured this was the God Father. I always paid my rent on time! LOL
  16. wombat

    wombat Member

    I live a couple of miles from Tony Soprano's house. Which is all I ever write about the mafia. Which there is no such thing as. :yow:
  17. Carol

    Carol Member

    Aren't lawyers - by law - required to inform LE when their clients have confessed to a crime? JonBenet's death was not prosecutable? Does that mean it was not a crime? Not even involuntary manslaughter? I would think that even an accident which resulted in death would have to be reported to the police as such. Weren't the lawyers that John Ramsey supposedly called that morning expected to inform the police that their clients told them exactly what happened to JonBenet?
  18. Spade

    Spade Member


    "This theory loses some validity given that since 2000 the Republicans have controlled all three branches of government with an iron fist and have shown they know how to use this power"

    The phone records were sealed by the White House in 1998 during Clinton's 2nd term.
  19. Watching You

    Watching You Superior Bee Admin

    I read somewhere that defense lawyers don't ask and really don't want to know if their client is guilty, but if they do find out, they can't make the claim in court that their client is innocent. They can still defend the client vigorously, but they can't make the claim of innocence. I also don't think they have any legal obligation to inform the prosecution of anything their client tells them because of attorney/client privilege.
  20. Shadow

    Shadow FFJ Senior Content Moderator

    Spade - The phone records were sealed by the White House in 1998 during Clinton's 2nd term.

    The only point I was trying to make, Spade, is that the Republicans have controlled all three branches of government and all government depts and agencies (including the Justice Dept) since 2000. Obviously, they have had the power since 2000 to unseal the phone records to nail Clinton and Democrats in Colorado, and open an obstruction of justice investigation to bring justice to JBR. Could the problem be that Ramsey is a Republican and ran for office? Could it be his run for office in Michigan was more to keep the phone records sealed than being elected? The "conspiracy" deepens!!!
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