Madeleine McCann

Discussion in 'Madeleine McCann' started by Jayelles, May 11, 2007.

  1. heymom

    heymom Member

    But KK, that was a different time. These parents are alive today, knowing what kind of world it is, they aren't in the 1950's or 1960's - they are here with us in 2007. We didn't have the same risks. I used to wander all over my town, at all hours of the night, alone. No one bothered me. I would NEVER allow my boys to do that now. My sis and I had a pallet in the back of my dad's Rambler station wagon and we slept and played while he drove us to Iowa, Missouri, Nebraska. Can you imagine? But there were far less cars on the road, people knew how to drive. It was just a long time ago.

    Maddie's parents should have felt a lot less sanguine about leaving their babies alone. It's just not the same world you and I grew up in. Not even in resorts, in countries previously thought of as safe.
  2. Pearlsim

    Pearlsim FFJ Senior Member

    Even if Portugal is the safest place on Earth, I can't imagine leaving babies three and under alone and out of earshot, just to go eat out.

    I remember being incensed when I read that the Ramseys left Burke alone while they drove to the hospital for Patsy to deliver JonBenet. Some family member was on the way to babysit, but what if that person had been involved in an accident on the way to the house? It seemed irresponsible to me for parents to go off and leave a young child alone. Not because I want to demonize the Ramseys but that's what I feel in regards to ANY child being left alone, when they are under a certain age.

    I'm not a perfect mom, by any means. But I KNOW that I'd never have been able to be at peace, knowing my children were alone and might wake up and be scared, suddenly get sick and start vomiting..or, as heymom commented in an earlier post, wander off and fall in the pool. Truthfully, it's hard to picture the McCanns having a wonderful, happy, relaxing vacation type of dinner when they knew they'd left babies at "home" to fend for themselves.

    I don't know what the exact layout was of the distance between the resturant where the McCanns dined and the hotel room where they left their children, but no matter how "close" some may argue it was obviously far enough away for someone to enter Maddie's room and snatch her without the parents hearing or seeing anything.

    It was a huge error in judgement. I can be genuinely sorry Maddie was taken, I can hope and pray every day that she comes home safely, but it doesn't change the fact that the parents helped set up the circumstances for their child's abduction.
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Look, I understand that many/most of us KNOW the dangers of predators looking for ways to commit crimes against children. But that's not the POINT. The POINT is that OBVIOUSLY these parents DIDN'T know that their behavior was putting their child at risk. Yes, fires can happen, children wake up afraid, etc. I certainly wouldn't THINK of leaving small children unattended. That's always been an issue with me in the Ramsey case, but I don't mention it much because it's not criminal to bed your small child so far from the master bedroom. Me, I check on my grandson when he's here during the night just out of habit--and he's across the hall with doors open. I'm probably a bit pathetic that way, but then, I've spent WAAAAAAAAAAAY too much time researching and discussing child predators, haven't I?

    Back when my son was a child, I wish I could say I was that careful, but I honestly just wasn't. I even remember taking him and a nephew when they were 11 and 10 to a movie theatre AND DROPPING THEM OFF to see a movie. I CRINGE when I think of it now. Yes, it was a very different time. And yes, we're not so naive now, and never will be again. But the POINT is that these parents in Portugal, no matter what WE know about the dangers inherent in what they did, they obviously did NOT.

    Even in this information age, I actually have friends who do not watch TV. Never. They're not interested in the swill on it...and I honestly can't blame them. They work a lot, travel, go to many concerts and performances, sew, write, cook, visit with family and friends, etc. The internet is a tool they use for work and email, but after work, not interested except for travel plans, concert tickets, picture sharing with family/friends, etc. They read newspapers for their news. The celebrities they recognize are political leaders, favorite authors, classical and theatre performers, composers, etc. They're professionals who work and play hard. Much like the Drs in this case, I'd think. I daresay they know little about the world of pedophiles and criminals we here are so familiar with.

    I don't know what these parents were doing. If they were only out for a relaxing meal, could see their room close by, checked on the children who I would think were in cribs, I can't condemn them as horrible parents for that. Would I do it? Obviously not. Would they do it AGAIN? I doubt it. Will they spend the rest of their lives wondering What was I thinking? That, and much, much worse.

    I'm just not going to kick them for being VICTIMS just because their naive and, yes, a bit careless actions made them more vulnerable to the predator who is THE CRIMINAL in this. That's just me.
  4. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Great post KK. That they left their kids asleep whilst they went downstairs to have something to eat from the Taco bar beside the pool is killing them. They have said that in an interview. "Getting on with their lives" couldn't be further from their minds now and they cannot contemplate returning to their comfortable lives and excellent careers back in the UK. Instead they are preparing themselves to trawl the length and breadth of Continental Europe in an effort to try and find Madeline. It was reported in the news this week that they would willingly cut their arms off if they thought it would bring her back - such is the depth of their pain and despair. They are being advised by experts to release one photo/video every day to keep her in the public eye.

    They are devout Catholics and I think their faith is holding them together.
  5. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    They were interviewed at length on Greta's show yesetrday.

    Is there an active forum anywhere?
  6. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    This is similar to Dutch law as well. Isn't British law similar too-- the case cannot be discussed?
  7. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Our laws aren't quite the same. What happens here is that when someone is charged with a crime, the pro-judice laws kick in and the media cannot report about the case until the trial. In Portugal the police are not allowed to discuss any aspect of the investigation at all - not even with the victims! The McCanns just don't know what is happening. The Portugese police have made a few fairly vague statements but even this is very unusual and seems to be on account of international pressure which wouldn't normally be an issue.

    As I recall, the sniffer dog lost the scent at some place which didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time (I don't want to start any rumours by posting what I have in my mind that this was). On reflection, it's possible that there was a vehicle parked at this place and that is why they lost the scent here.
  8. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    I'm sure there will be, but the only ones I've seen are mainly just people posting their prayers.

    The McCann's are currently in Madrid which is the capital of Spain. Spain and Portugal have close ties and there was speculation she may have been taken there. They have received a letter from the parents of another child who was snatched and is currently missing.

    The McCanns are well known in Glasgow. They are a big family and well liked. The are the kind of people who would give you the shirt off their backs.
  9. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    Thanks for explaining the difference. When cases are under investigation in the U.K., the police release info to the family and the media then?

    The McCanns were on Greta last night and she asked them a few questions which they declined to answer because of the investigation, I got the impression that they may have had the information though and just were told they could not discuss it with the media.

    I am not clear on the layout of the apartment and where the entrance was --- was it out of their eyesight ? Was there only the door or was there a balcony/patio door as well?
  10. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Yes, the police in the UK are pretty good at communicating with victims and their familes. The pro judice laws are to prevent a trial by media or for anyting to be published that would jeopardise the trial. Scottish law is different from the law in England and Wales but they are pretty similar in this respect. In Scotland we have a 100 day rule which means that if someone is refused bail, a trial must br brought about within 100 days.

    The British detectives who have been working on the case may have communicated stuff to them but asked them not to disclose. The Portugese police are prevented from talking by law so my guess is it's the British investigators who have shared and not the Portugese.

    Early reports said the apartment was 200 yards from the restaurant where they ate but it is more like 50-100 yards. These hotel complexes are usually quite similar and comprise of a main building and then a pool with little apartments skirting round the pool. When you book, you often get the choice of a room overlooking the pool or not overlooking the pool. We always choose not overlooking the pool because as in the case of the McCann's hotel, there is often a bar and/or eating place beside the pool for people who don't want to leave the hotel complex for a meal so it can be quite noisy in the evening. The restaurant was just on the other side of the swimming pool from their apartment and they could see their apartment from the restaurant.

    You usually have to go through the hotel to get to the pool area because stealing is a problem in some resorts. People will go out to laze beside the pool and thiefs will go round and steal their purses. However, one of our favourite hotels in Majorca is quite open plan and anyone could wander in off the street to sit by the pool. Having said that, it's a wonderfully safe resort and I've taken the children there on my own without my Hubby and felt absolutely safe. We've never had any bother at that resort. I wouldn't say the same about some of the resorts we've been to in Spain. There were muggings and even a burglary in our hotel and we never left the complex in the evenings. Same in Tenerife - lots of gypsies and thefts. Majorca, Minorca, Cyprus, Portugal ... these are all considered safe places to go on holiday.
  11. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I read the interview with the man from Scotland Yard a couple of weeks ago, and he said the scent was lost in a market area not far from the hotel. His theory is that Madeleine woke up and left the apartment, wandering into the market area where she was taken by someone who saw her alone. He thinks it was a crime of opportunity.

    The idea of her wandering out of the apartment and not being TAKEN from the apartment has not been as highly publicized, but to me it makes a lot of sense, especially in view of the fact the other two small children were not as well.
  12. Little

    Little Member

    Thanks Cherokee for posting this. I have wondered why they seem so certain that someone went to their room and took her, and like you said, the other two were not taken. I know there could be a lot of reasons for this, one that maybe the twins would have been more likely to cry and attract attention.

    If Madeline woke up she many well have decided to look for her parents.

  13. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    That's the one. I didn't read this - it was a telephone interview with a tv presenter. It's the only tme I've heard the suggestion that she wandered off too but I wasn't sure if I'd caught that correctly and I didn't want to post it and maybe spread misinformation. To be honest, I don't know how she'd get out because these apartments tend to have adult height locks. The hotels in Continental Europe must comply with stringent safety and security standards before the British holiday companies like Thomsons and Airtours will use them. What we often find is that the apartment has a card key which opens the door but which also must be inserted into a reader on the wall before the electricity will work. It's a good arrangement. The doors lock automatically when they close and in fact, it's easy to get locked out! Hotels who want to be acredited by British holiday companies often have to spend a lot of money getting up to standard. I'll try to find out if this is a hotel that Thomsons use because they are very picky. If it is, I think we can take it as read that a proper lock would be on the door and that a child of 3 wouldn't be able to reach it.

    The guy from Scotland Yard was also the one who spoke about how rare a stranger/intruder crime was and how the vast majority of child abduction cases were opportunistic. He said that it was such a rare crime that there were probably only about 20 people in the entire UK capable of such a crime.
  14. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    I couldn't find any photos of the hotel rooms which included the entry door into the apartment (I thought this might let us see if she could have reached the door handle).

    However, I did find the interview with the Scotland Yard guy:-,,91210-1265416,00.html

    Unfortunately, he said that he thought the case would be solved in a couple of days - and that was nearly 3 weeks ago...
  15. tylin

    tylin Banned

    What an excellent post Pearlsim. :thumbsup: :star3d: :toast:

    I do remember reading that the restaurant where the Mccann's ate was more than 2 football fields away from the room where the children slept. The Mccan's were not ignorant. They knew that was too far away for them to see if anyone entered the apartment or the children's room.

    No matter how you look at it they and the other parents who had children in the apartment were negligent. I'm sure the Mccann's have suffered much for that fact. It shows on their faces. I hope and pray Maddy is found but after following child disappearance cases for years, I have little hope there will be a good outcome.
  16. tylin

    tylin Banned

    An excellent link with excellent pictures of the hotel area, including maps, etc and excellent information about the case and the investigation. It is updated daily.
    (FYI-I found this at the Crimeshots forum.)

    SCROLL TO THE END OF THE PAGE TO SEE THE PICS. They can be enlarged.
  17. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    If the hotel doors are like the ones in the US, the doors automatically lock from the outside and automatically open from the inside. In other words, it would be difficult for someone to enter the hotel room without a room key card, but it would be very easy for a child to exit the room by just pulling on the door handle (which is at the normal door knob height).

    I do not know what kind of door the McCann's hotel room had, but I've read their room was left unlocked, so maybe it was a regular key and lock arrangement, not a card key. Of course, the information regarding the unlocked door may not be accurate as we have heard conflicting reports about the actual evidence in this case.
  18. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks for the link, Tylin. They say they think she was taken through a window, not a door, and show a photo of the window. I had not heard that theory before.
  19. heymom

    heymom Member

    Door handles in Europe are higher than ours. I have never been in a European hotel with American-style doorknobs. A child of 3 could not reach high enough to open the door on her own.
  20. LurkerXIV

    LurkerXIV Moderator


    Thanks for that link. A brief study of those photos shows that the McCanns were both out of sight and out of earshot of their three defenseless babes.

    That Nancy Grace is so ignorant on this case. She continues to claim that the parents were "just steps" away from the babies. That's an outrageous lie!
    By some estimates, they were 100 yards away from the apartment, on winding pathways obscured by trees and walls. That's the length of a football field. Waitstaff at Tapas said they never left the table that night during dinner.

    Even "as the crow flies", Tapas is 60 yards from the apartment. The photos show that the apartment was not in a safe enclosed area, but that the window backed on to a small parking lot, separated from a main highway by only a 3 foot high wall.

    Definitely not a safe place to leave three tots unattended.

    These were not parents who went "downstairs" to a dining room in a hotel, leaving three unattended sleeping babes a few stories up. They went entirely out of the apartment building, down and around a couple of roads bordered by heavy brush, all the way to the OTHER side of a swimming pool, to sit and socialize with three other doctor couples, who had ALSO left their babies, all under 3 years of age, alone and unattended.

    And enough already about Mrs. McCann being "naive". She is an emergecy room doctor. She has probably seen a hundred times over what horrible accidents befall unattended children. She is not an eighteen-year-old inexperienced mother.

    Those McCanns make me as ill as the Ramseys did!!
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