Madeleine McCann

Discussion in 'Madeleine McCann' started by Jayelles, May 11, 2007.

  1. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, gosh, crack ho's, I didn't know you were going to take it so personally or I would have just kept my fingers still.

    I don't know much about the case. It's not been that long since the child went missing. I'm busy right now and don't have time to devote to watching every word on it. But to date, I haven't seen the parents arrested or accused of a crime involving this disappearance, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt in that I don't want to add to their grief, no matter HOW negligent their holiday habits with their children were. If the child hadn't gone missing, no one would be condemning these parents for anything, as we'd never have heard of them. Since other parents were also doing the same thing, no matter where they worked, I doubt that any of them actually THOUGHT, OH, think I'll put my children at risk and see if they survive.

    I get the impression that some here want the parents to be drawn-and-quartered because their actions ended in the child missing. I, too, feel for the child. But in the end, unless you think the PARENTS did something to the child, it's just like accusing a RAPE victim of dressing too provocatively, thereby "asking for it": THE PERP IS THE CRIMINAL HERE, not the victims. I guess it's my victim advocacy training, but I'm not going to blame the victim, sorry. Of course these parents made a huge mistake. I don't think they need ANYONE to tell them that now.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think what the parents did was DESERVING of having their child snatched, no matter how slack their parenting skills appear to us, so I'll just pray for a miracle that they find the child well and healthy soon.

    Now, I'm out. Love ya', and pass the crack!
  2. ACandyRose

    ACandyRose Super Moderator

    Wow tylin, thanks for the link. Seeing these photos of the hotel area really brings into perspective the overall scene. I had been reading that the restaurant was "just across the court yard" but now I see that this hotel was a larger complex and the location of their actual hotel room was not even within eye shot from the restaurant, that is it was secluded enough for somebody to get in and out with the child without anybody seeing them.

    While I am sad for Madeleine and the parents that they left the three children alone like this but the bottom line is that this little girl is missing and it shows how quickly something like this can happen whether she walked out of the room on her own or somebody abducted her.

    I hope and pray this child will be found alive and in the process, if nothing else, the international coverage of this case *should* bring serious awareness to all parents that regardless of whether they are home or out of town that childen that age need to be in a protected environment at all times, with a sitter, caregiver or somebody if the parent can't be with them.

  3. heymom

    heymom Member

    These are selfish people who don't want their small children to cause any interference with their plans. Why even have children if you're not going to adjust your lifestyle in any way? If both of them are doctors, they probably don't spend a whole heck of a lot of time with the children anyway, sorry - I've worked with doctors and I know their families' lives are affected by that career choice. The families who have only one doctor as a parent are handicapped - where is the stability with both parents being doctors?

    This is just the culturally normal "my life comes first" attitude of some parents these days. Sacrifice for my kids? What? You must be kidding!

    I completely agree with you Lurker. These people made a choice, and the choice was wrong. I am sorry for Maddie, not for them. No, they don't *deserve* for this to have happened, but they are not getting my empathy. I only wish it hadn't happened, for Maddie's sake, and for her siblings' sakes.
  4. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Ummm, I've also been to Europe, and there were some places with high door handles, and some with door handles at the "American" height. It varied from country to country, and from hotel to hostel to B&B. (We were college students on tour and weren't able to always stay at the finest hotels if you get my drift.) We traveled to England, Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy, Spain, and France. There was every kind of toilet, room configuration and door. Of course, that was back in 1978. Perhaps with the European Union, they have passed a law that all door handles must be higher than the American average?

    Madeleine could have reached several of the door knobs in rooms where I stayed.
  5. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Well, if you're going to kick the parents when they're down, at least let's don't share misinformation. I have a several women doctors and let me tell you, they take PLENTY of time off with their families. I've even had one step out of an exam to take a cell phone call from her daughter, saying she was sorry, but this was her daughter. I had NO problem with awaiting her return, as a mother myself.

    I have to say, I'm a little surprised at the quickness and vehemence with which these parents are being condemned. If this is how you really feel, then take solace in the fact that they are suffering terribly and more than any of us can imagine. If this is your judgment, then consider them sufficiently punished. Unless you'll only be satisfied with their heads on a platter.
  6. tylin

    tylin Banned

    You are very welcome. I like the way you view this case. I also find the McCann's actions mirroring those of the Ramsey's. :dervish:

    You too are very welcome.
  7. tylin

    tylin Banned

    I didn't mean to come off as kicking the parents quickly because I've followed Maddy's disappearance from day one. It was obvious to me that her parents were hiding something. The McCann's at first sugar coated the story of their daughter's disappearance by saying they were near the children's bedroom while eating dinner that night. Which proved to be total bs. 2 football field lengths away is not within sight. ) Later they said they checked on the children every 30 minutes. In truth, the McCann's didn't check on the children every 30 minutes---they allowed other friends to supposedly check on the children.

    I agree with Lurker and heymom, the parents were negligent and should be charged with such at a later date. They DID neglect their 3 children and the other children left in the room were neglected by their parents too. It's just plain common sense. IF the parents or a babysitter had been in the room, Madeleine would be with her family today.

    Another part of this case that the parents were not totally honest about was them not leaving the children alone before that night. They admitted to LE that they left the children alone many nights during their month long vacation.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2007
  8. The Punisher

    The Punisher Member

    I don't mean to seem callous, but there's just something not right about this. Nothing in my gut tells me they had anything to do with it, but my intellect tells me I can't ignore the possibility.
  9. Amber

    Amber Member


    I've not been here lately as I've been tied up on a recently formed forum Maddie set up by posters from a crime forum.

    I have watched the forum grow and develop much like many of you must have done with JBR forums, and it's been fascinating.

    Popping in here today and reading your posts I am totally shocked at the pure venom aimed at these parents, from people I consider warm, caring and 'the salt of the earth'. Personally I am not interested in the parents one bit, only Madeleine, but she seems not to be important here - attacking the parents seems to be the most pressing matter...even after four weeks!

    I'm really disappointed.
  10. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Amber - I agree with you. Man's inhumanity to man and all that... I feel it too. I've read quite a few attacks on the parents which have been based on total misinformation and I'm not even going to try and straighten it out.

    The parents are not suspects but what I found interesting was that they were fully accepting of the fact that they had to be investigated as suspects in the early stages of the investigation. They spoke of this as an understandable and crucial process and one which they fully co-operated in. When they did hire lawyers, it was to manage the Madeleine fund because people were trying to give them money and they couldn't accept it by law. There is one rather sweet story about donations. So many people were trying to donate money towards a search fund and it all had to be declined (I know this - I was one of those who tried to donate). Then one morning, someone ran into the hospital where Gerry McCann is a Consultant Cardiologist threw a bucket of money down on the reception desk and bolted before anyone could refuse to take it!

    If the parents or the friends had been involved in her death, there would have to be almighty conspiratorial cover-up and I don't even know how they'd get rid of her body not having a car.

    I checked, and the hotel is used by Thomas Cook holidays. This is one of the big package holiday companies who require their accomodations to comply with stringent standards. I think the hotel is even owned by a Brit.

    The European package holiday does seem to be something quite alien to Americans and I'm done trying to persuade people that it's not unusual for parents to put their kids to bed and then either use the listening service or check on them themselves at intervals. The very fact that baby listening is a fairly standard service offered by the hotels should corroborate that.

    When we go on these holidays, we literally turn up at the domestic airport and the holiday company take over from there. They fly us out, they meet us at the airport and take us to the hotel in coaches. There are reps in the hotel who organise excursions (by coach) to cultural attractions. Then they bus us back to the airport and put us back on the plane. The holiday company pretty much look after everything from travel and accomodation to medical emergencies, excursions, complaints and entertainment. I think disposing/helping to dispose of an inconvenient child's body would be outwith their remit :(
  11. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Thank you for your posts KK. There IS a lot of misinformation going on here and I'm surprised and disappointed with some of the hate that's going on. I guess I must also be a terrible parent because when we go on our Eurpoean package holiday (ala McCann) we also leave our kids at the kids club to let us have some mum and dad time. We even need to get up early to book the spaces because all these other terrible British/German/Dutch parents have the same idea and slots get quickly booked out.

    I'm out.
  12. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    (I hope this doesn't post twice, as I lost the first one.)

    Obviously, this is another polarizing case. I truly don't have the time to devote to learning about it well enough to debate it, though, right now. So I'll just say God speed, Maddie. :cand:
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    No, Jayelles, I don't think anyone would ever call you a bad parent, but quite the opposite. Personally, I wish you'd adopt me.... :pray:

    I think it is more that we don't have such services in America, and our country is literally so large and diverse, we have lost a lot of trust to the point of being downright paranoid. Too much crime and violence portrayed on TV, I suspect.
  14. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Yes, but as I said, the hotels which are used by the larger ABTA holiday companies must comply to their standards. These companies often book out an entire hotel for the whole season. When you go to the hotels they have certificates all around the reception area stating that they pass the standards set by such and such a company. The Ocean Club is used by Thomas Cook - who are huge. The bread and butter of these companies is the family holiday (which is why they offer kids clubs and listening/babysitting services too). Apartments are usually pretty kid safe. The hotels we've been in had anti-slam devices on the doors and child locks on the kitchen cupboards. There was a scandal some years ago about unsafe cots in some of the resorts.

    THere is a big difference between these package holiday hotels and the pensions that a student would stay in on a back-packing holiday. Also, European laws have changed a lot in the past 15 years.
  15. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Me too KK. I hurt for these parents but it pales in comparison to the hurt they are feeling themselves. There is an increasing amount of misinformation circulating about the case and the parents and I can't deal with someone telling me that I'm wrong about something I have considerable first hand experience of! It kind of reminds me of the time I answered the phone to have someone ask me if I was some fur shop. I said no - wrong number and they informed me that they did not have the wrong number. I replied that I wasn't the fur shop and that I suggested they check the telephone directory. Their response was that it was ME who should be doing the checking!

    There's obviously a cultural difference thing going on here too. I'm going to back off. I've had my eyes opened somewhat.

    You are a good person.
  16. Jayelles

    Jayelles Alert Viewer in Scotland

    Regarding misinformation - here's a couple of examples of misinformation :-

    1) Kate McCann is not an emergency room doctor. She's a part-time GP.

    2) that the tapas bar was "two football pitches" distance from the McCann's apartment.

    A standard football pitch is between 100-130 yards long. OK, let's take the smallest size - 100 yards = 300 feet. Multiply by two and you've got 600 feet. It is being calimed that the tapas bar was 600 feet from the McCann's apartment.

    Now consider the size of a tennis court. A standard tennis court is 100feet long. That would mean that the length of two football pitches would be equivalent to 6 tennis courts laid end to end - right?

    Now look at the aerial photo of the Hotel complex where the McCanns stayed. I have marked the apartment and the tapas bar in yellow to pin point them beause I had to reduce the image to upload it and the writing isn't clear anymore.

    See the tennis courts? Could you fit six of them between the McCann apartment and the tapas bar?

    Attached Files:

  17. Elle

    Elle Member

    For me, the measurements mean nothing, Jay. There is still a gap between the two buildings, and the children were not in their familiar sleeping quarters. With one so young, I couldn't agree to an arrangement like that. To each his own.

    Having said that, it's understandable two busy working medical parents did put their trust in the establishment. It doesn't seem the hotel had security cameras set on each floor. Can you tell me anything about this? Isn't it normal procedure when small children are being left alone, to give parents peace of mind.

    I note there was a security camera at the pool entrance.

    I am sorry this little girl hasn'r been found yet
  18. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    Wow, thanks for posting that diagram. By the way they were talking, I imagined that the Tapas Bar was right next to the apartment unobstructed.

    I don't think the child wandered off alone outside and it just so happened a pedophile was in her path and grabbed her. If this happened in a video arcade full of children, then maybe so, but not in a secluded resort like this. Someone was watching and knew this was the routine, the parents would leave the children alone in the room while they dined. If it were a lone offender, which is probably the case, he couldn't handle 3 children. Same reason why Elizabeth Smart's sister was not taken.

    I do not think these sorts of crimes occur in southern Europe very often. In fact, when I lived there I felt perfectly safe for my life and perfectly unsafe for my personal property. Theft is rampant. But murder,child abductions and rape is not something one even thinks about because it was so rare. The murders that did occur were either terrorism related or mafia type crimes. This is why the parents took what we consider a huge risk but may not be thought as such in a resort in Portugal.

    The parents made a poor decision, but they should not be punished any further. Just like Holloway, Van Dam and even Samantha Runnion- remember she was outside and the grandmother was inside the house and Adam Walsh, his mother left him at the video games while she looked at lamps-- these parents took risks which resulted in a tragedy. I am sure they are going to regret this poor judgement for the rest of their lives.

    I don't see where the parents were dishonest. Nancy Grace has a tendency to dramatize and exaggerate, you can't believe 100% what you hear on her show, from Anna Nicole to Paris Hilton, she exaggerates. If one group of parents were checking on all the kids every 30 minutes, I could see where the statement that " we checked every 30 minutes" would get out to the media and besides, it really is the truth whether is was the McCanns personally or one of their friends, what difference does it make, the children were still checked. I just think there are some cultural differences here including Portugese law enforcement (like Aruban) are bound by law to remain silent and not divulge any information about the investigation to the media or family.

    Thanks for the link to that forum, it appears you have to register before you can even read.
  19. heymom

    heymom Member

    Let me make this clear

    I do not hate the parents. Hate is a different emotion entirely. They made a choice which I would not make and which I believe was wrong, even in the context of a cultural habit. I think that when you have children, especially small children who cannot use a cell phone or communicate on their own in any way, you have a deeper obligation to protect them than leaving them alone in a hotel room while you are out of sight and hearing. If the abduction had happened while the parents were in the shower, I'd have more sympathy. Or if they shut the door and went across the hall to get a Coke from a machine. But they didn't have anyone to "listen" to their children, and they didn't go check on them. That is a fact. Emotions aside, they did not even use the standard tools that Europeans use when in this situation.

    I think it is neglect when parents do this. Maybe they just aren't used to the way a parent thinks and feels about children - you know, that doesn't come naturally to everyone. It's a pity that neither of them refused to leave the babies.

    I will apologize for bringing in their dual careers. It's been my experience that people these days tend to put almost everything before the direct care for their children. Their jobs, career, hobbies, sports pursuits, exercise, friends, etc. all come before simple family responsibilities like spending time with their children, just being with them. It's go, go, go and do, do, do, and much of the time the interest is more in what the adults are doing and not what the kids need. People work and work just to get more stuff, when all the kids want is our time and love. OK, that was the end of my social commentary.

    The loss of Maddie is a deep tragedy, and I am sorry that she was taken. I pray they find her alive.
  20. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    I have to agree with KK here on all counts. I am not blaming the parents for what happened to this little girl. I want to make that perfectly clear

    However, having said that, I also have to wonder "what were they thinking?" and again, cannot wonder any more than the parents themselves must be wondering. Here, when a parent or caregiver, when these things occur, have left their children sleeping at home just to run over half a block to the store and return home to find their children had woken up, set the house on fire, left the premises, fallen out of a window, etc. the sympathy factor is quite absent and the parents end up facing charges, etc. and in many cases, go to jail, if their negligence results in a death. They also have their other children taken away.

    While again, not blaming the parents for whomever took Madeleine, I do find some resentment in being compared to what happens here in America. We, as KK said, did not invent bad guys, kidnappers, predators, pedophiles, etc. It's a global issue, and I think cultural norms, while applicable in some aspects apply, the UNIVERSAL precautions, if you will, apply all over the globe. Children left alone, if there are NO bad guys around, are still children who can get into all sorts of trouble all by themselves and I think leaving little ones alone, sleeping or otherwise is irresponsible.

    Here, had this happened, rest assured there would be no visits with the pope, nor would there be an international effort to sympathize with the parents.

    And I do resent the America bashing.
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