Madeleine McCann

Discussion in 'Madeleine McCann' started by Jayelles, May 11, 2007.

  1. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member

    Has it been established either way? I haven't followed this case in great detail. Is it a possibility that she wandered off or do we know for sure she was taken?
  2. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I used to have an amazing memory. As I get older, my short-term memory has gotten progressively worse and rather shocking, but I can still remember useless information from the past like my old high school locker combination. I have trouble remembering what I did yesterday, but not the date of a classmate's birthday from elementary school. I've got all this info stored away that nobody needs, but can't remember squat about what I'm supposed to do today. :balloon:

    Anyway, one of the reasons I remember the door handles being different heights is because while we were staying in Florence, we were in such a bad neighborhood that we slept with the bedroom light on and the door barricaded with a chair. The door was an old wooden one with the door knob at the regular "American" height, and we fit the chair under the knob at an angle. Sirens blared all night, and I don't remember getting much sleep if any at all. That sort of thing will etch itself on your memory. While in Europe, we stayed at everything from modern hotels to run-down hostels. There was a wide variety of fixtures and furnishings. I'm sure all that has changed now.

    But like I told Barbara, it really doesn't matter. I was just answering Heymom who said that in her experience, all the European door handles were higher than American ones because I remember some of them not being that way back in the day.

    Like I said, I was just interested in the idea that Madeleine could have wandered out through the door and not been taken from the room. Now, there's another theory about her being taken through a window.

    Either way, it's a tragedy and a heartbreak.
  3. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    She was raped....

    But she wore seductive clothes.

    She was sexually promiscuous.

    She was walking alone at night from a bar. She'd had drinks.

    She was making out with the guy.

    She went up to his room. She drank with him.

    She sent mixed messages.

    She took drugs.

    She's a prostitute, so she can't be raped.

    She left her windows unlocked.

    She didn't close her curtains at night.

    Why did she not call a cab?

    Why didn't she stay with her friends?

    Why didn't she fight?

    Why did she invite him in?

    Why did she not call police immediately?

    Why didn't she drive on her flat tire to a safer place?

    Etc., etc., etc.

    This is called BLAMING THE VICTIM.

    When you are trained to be a sexual assault victim advocate, THE FIRST THING YOU ARE TAUGHT IS NOT TO MAKE JUDGMENTS OR ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT THE VICTIM'S BEHAVIOR.


    What I don't understand is why so few here see that this is the same principle when these parents are picked apart as if THEY ARE THE CRIMINALS.

    Would they change what is now seen as "risky behavior" after the fact? Sure they would, I'd bet a lot on that.

    But is there any woman here who has not had a drink in a bar, left or been left behind by her friends for some reason, walked at night alone somewhere, not had a flat tire and stopped, worn seductive clothing to go dancing, trusted a date and/or male friend, etc.?

    If you didn't get raped, trust me when I say you were lucky, because MANY WOMEN HAVE BEEN RAPED UNDER JUST THESE CIRCUMSTANCES. Did they get asked these questions? Too often, you bet! And HOW does the victim HEAR that question? YOU MADE A BAD CHOICE AND THEREFORE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR GETTING YOURSELF RAPED. Oh, yeah, that's EXACTLY what they hear, because THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE QUESTION CLEARLY IMPLIES THE QUESTIONER IS THINKING.

    It's called RE-VICTIMIZATION: first she's RAPED by a RAPIST who simply took advantage of a situation that is as common as turning 21; then she's RE-INJURED, albeit psychologically, by being ACCUSED of COLLUSION of some nature IN HER OWN RAPE.

    See how that works?

    So no, I'm NOT going to RE-VICTIMIZE these parents. Yeah, I understand that they made a choice they'd give a lot to take back NOW, and I understand talking about it on some level. But to bash them OVER AND OVER as BAD PARENTS is just too much for some of us who have found in a lifetime of parenting that WE HAVE MADE CHOICES IN PARENTING THAT EASILY COULD HAVE LED TO DISASTER IF ONLY SOME PERVERT HAD BEEN THERE TO TAKE ADVANTAGE AT THE TIME. BRENDA VAN DAM did nothing CULPABLE that led to the MURDER of her child by a HUMAN MONSTER; neither did the grandmother who let a child play with another child in the yard; neither did John Walsh's wife when she left her child watching children play vidoe games to look at products an aisle over, never imagining that the store employee would run them outside. THE GUILTY PARTIES IN ALL THESE CASES ARE THE PERPS AND ONLY THE PERPS.

    So you can blast these parents all you want, but you are WRONG to BLAME THEM, even through IMPLICATION, for the CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR of the person that abducted the child from her bed.

    That's all I'm going to say about this, because I love all of you and do not want ill feelings over any of this. That only perpetuates the wave of evil the devil has let lose to steal an innocent child from her parents.
  4. heymom

    heymom Member

    In fact, in my city, just the other day, a little 3-year-old girl died because the apartment she was in caught fire, between the time her mom's boyfriend left for work, and her mom got back from work. They were accustomed to leaving the children - 2 girls, I believe, one 6 and one 3 - home alone, sleeping, for just 1/2 hour as one left and one was coming home. It was enough time for an emergency to occur. The older girl actually got the baby out of the apartment but the baby was scared and ran back INTO the smoke. A horrible, horrible tragedy. The mother and the boyfriend will almost certainly be charged with neglect and endangerment.
  5. heymom

    heymom Member

    Pardon me, KK, but the parents are not the victim in this case: Maddie is. We are most certainly NOT blaming Maddie for her own kidnapping, but we ARE blaming the parents for the lack of judgement in keeping their children safe.

    Blaming a rape victim for her attack is not the same as criticizing parents who show a lack of good sense and don't protect their children.

    If the parents had left Maddie in a hot car while they went to dinner and she died, would anyone be defending the parents? Why is this different?
  6. Barbara

    Barbara FFJ Senior Member


    I would never revictimize anyone, and I am not doing that here either. My heart goes out to them, as only by the grace of God have any of us NOT had something terrible happen to our children when we either just looked away, didn't pay attention, etc., But had something happened to them when any one of us might have been careless at some point, we would blame ourselves forever and while we wouldn't be to BLAME, we certainly would have been responsible on some level just because we are parents. I know, speaking for myself, there were times when errors of judgement caused a fall, or other small injury that certainly could have been worse, but only pure luck saves every parent from disaster at some point. We can't be everywhere and we have all made poor judgement calls; we were lucky; they weren't.

    Like I said, had the room gone up in flames or the children somehow caused themselves great harm by being alone, I feel that the parents woud have received endless criticism

    It wasn't so long ago that we all were criticizing Patsy for leaving Burke alone, then three, even for a while when Patsy went to the hospital to give birth to JBR. And she had someone on the way to watch him. Had something happened to Burke in the interim, no doubt we would have jumped on that as more evidence of not so perfect parenting

    I don't see what the difference is. Perhaps as I said earlier, it's the vast amount of reverence we are paying to the parents, when under any other circumstances, the world wouldn't have been so generous about it.

    Regardless, my thoughts and prayers are for Maddie's safe return and also for her parents.
  7. Moab

    Moab Admin Staff Member

    I know this is a terrible case, and my heart goes out to this child, regardless of the circumstances...but the most important thing...the one everyone should focus on, and never divert from, is getting Maddie home...until then, nothing else matters, and I mean NOTHING.

    Until then, we won't have all the facts
    Until then, we will hear conflicting stories from the media
    Until then, we can only make assumptions
    Until then, we can all say we would have done things differently
    Until then, we don't want to vilify the parents when we all have something we have done and we lucked out...
    Until then, Maddie AND her parents are both victims of a different nature

    Until then, NOTHING is more important than bringing this child home.

    Let's save the in-fighting and beating up the parents for later, n'cest pas?
  8. Amber

    Amber Member

    That's exactly what I meant.
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, Moab. Always a level head...especially for a pyrate!

    Heymom, I guess you feel how you feel, but I beg to differ about the parents not being victims. If that were true, why would the law allow family to give VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENTS during sentencing of predators?

    Guess some of us will just have to agree to disagree.

    One thing John Walsh said that applies to this case, I think: he said if a child predator wants your child, HE WILL GET IT, because he'll stalk the child and plan and lie in wait until that one moment when he can. Walsh said if a child predator is determined, there is nothing you can do, because you will not know until it is done.

    Someone wanted Maddie.
  10. ACandyRose

    ACandyRose Super Moderator

    Wow Tyliin, that link you gave has a tremendous archive of news articles on this case (and many other cases as well.) I spent the last hour scanning just about all of them. Very informative.

    Thanks for the link :)

  11. tylin

    tylin Banned

    You're welcome ACandyRose. :)
    That site is another good one to go to for great reference materials.
  12. ACandyRose

    ACandyRose Super Moderator

    I added that forum link to my front page also. There is a lot of stuff there. Thank YOU again. :)

    But thinking about that blogspot link you posted with the hotel pics and the article about the woman who seen a child that looked like Madeleine in the Marrakech markets. That's a very scarey thought.

    When we were doing our home schooling we used the Globe Treker show videos for our world culture studies and we covered Morocco as well as a large portion of Africa. Both the Marrakech and Fez markets are very old world, very medieval and there are all kinds of underground passages throughout the city where anybody can get lost. The Arabs come from miles around to buy and sell at those markets.

    And Portagul and Spain is just North and right across the way by ferry from the port of Tangiers which is the port entrance into Morocco.

    Here's a map link to that area:

  13. heymom

    heymom Member

    KK, what I meant was the the parents are not *direct* victims in the way that a woman who was raped would be. They have been victimized, by having their child kidnapped by a predator, yes. But the true victim of the crime was Maddie. I am thinking of any other crime victim - say, a mugger attacks you and beats you up for your purse. You are the victim of the crime. Your child, who watched the event occur, was victimized but is not the victim.

    Maybe I am splitting hairs, but when you compared Maddie's parents to a rape victim I felt I had to clarify. The victim of a crime is the person it was perpetrated against. That's how I see it anyway. And it wouldn't be important except that I believe that her parents were negligent. Whatever the results, for me, that's an issue. I'm sorry for them, I pity them, and I pray that Maddie somehow is returned, but I believe they did make a terribly wrong decision that allowed a predator to have access not just to Maddie, but their twins as well.

    Oh the John Walsh comment, I was of the impression that child predators are more opportunistic and don't necessarily target one child and stalk him or her, but watch for a profile type and then pounce. That's interesting.
  14. Little

    Little Member

    I just hope this poor little girl can be reunited with her family. This is so frightening. I can't wish anything horrible or painful enough upon the creature/s who preyed upon her.

  15. tylin

    tylin Banned

    You are welcome. (I often go there for information. It's an excellent site.)

    Thank you for the map! I'm ashamed to admit that I haven't looked at world maps in a long time :blushing: and the link to the map is good. I'm more afraid than ever that IF Maddy was taken to Morocco, she won't be found.
  16. ACandyRose

    ACandyRose Super Moderator

    Don't feel bad about not looking at world maps for a long time. It was not something I normally do either but since we were studying world cultures, I became re-educated along with the students.

    And I had each student make up a very large scrapbook with maps and photos and stories they found about each country or island that we studied. Believe it or not we covered about 40 some countries throughout the school year. My printer was working overtime printing maps! And each student had to draw with red sharpies on each map the path the Globe Trekker took through each country as they watched the corresponding video. We went all over the world from South America, Europe, Middle East, various Islands, you name it. And in addition to the mapping they had to document about ten things per each country on a spread sheet that I created in Microsoft Excel.

    Each student ended up with a 4" binder chuck full of world history (one girl student started a second binder as her first one was so full) and world culture documentation. And what was rewarding as a teacher was when school was out for the summer, one of the students was watching television and the Globe Trekker program came on with a new show and they called me and told me they watched it because it was so interesting. I didn't have cable so I had reserved the Globe Trekker videos from the local library and I downloaded some from the Internet so originally we only had what was available from those sources.

    Here's a link to the Globe Trekker for Morocco:

    But back to Madeleine, yes it is not a happy thought at all that if she is in Morocco that she may never be found. :-( And what is just as sad also is that if that little girl who was spotted in the Marrakech market is not Madeleine then she could be yet another little girl who was grabbed and looking for her mommy. :-(

  17. tylin

    tylin Banned

    I have a feeling you were/are an excellent teacher. 4 inch binders! That's a lot of maps and information. Your students won't forget what you taught them. My kids always remembered what they learned while being taught by 'good' teachers.

    Your latest link is so full of facts. The slightest chance that Maddy was seen in Morocco shouldn't be ignored. That made me think, do women and girls in Morocco wear a head dress? And if Maddy was taken to another country, surely someone would question her not speaking their language.
  18. ACandyRose

    ACandyRose Super Moderator

    From what I learned the "old tradition" is for females to wear the head dress they call a Hijabs. I don't really think language is as much a bearing as some would think for that part of the world especially considering the Marrakech market is really hugh and they deal with all kind of people around the world going there looking for the type of things they sell. A lot of their wares are very colorful and beautiful and they are there to barter and sell to the western world.

    From the videos we viewed the Fez Market is much more medieval of the Arab world than Marrakech but neither is a place I would want my small children wandering around without being strapped to my hip !! :p

  19. Sabrina

    Sabrina Member

    I took that ferry from Cadiz to Tangiers and then a tour all through Morocco.

    A blonde child would stand out like a sore thumb there.
  20. ACandyRose

    ACandyRose Super Moderator

    LOL Sabrina, I think ANY fair skinned person would stand out in that area !

    But you know if this story has any legs, all they would have to do is tell this little girl that they are taking her to see her mommy and that her mommy wants her to wear one of those traditional arab scarfs or an outfit more fitting from that area and the little girl would do just as she was told just to see her mommy. She already has dark eyes so if they could cover her blonde hair they could move her to their destination as long as they can keep her calm and under the ruse that she's going to her mommy.

    The thing I worry about is that birthmark on her one eye will brand her for life as to who she is if somebody grabbed her for the purpose of selling her to some wealthy family then even as she gets older that birthmark will identify her if anybody would ever spot her that has read about this story or seen posters that get distributed around the world.

    So she's really a hot ticket unfortunately in more ways than one. :-(

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