New JonBenet radio show with Jim Kolar - Sunday, December 23, 2012, 8 pm EST!

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Tricia, Dec 22, 2012.

  1. cynic

    cynic Member

    I had done a recap of the show for a friend who at the time would not be able to get to it for a few days.
    That person suggested I post it as others might find it useful. While I’m uncertain as to the degree of usefulness :D here it is…
    (BTW, as KK had suggested there were MANY unasked questions because at the last minute Kolar indicted to Tricia that he would only be able to stay for an hour.)

    Tricia: “Steve we are not going to get into the “meat and potatoes†of the case with you tonight, I just wanted you to to check in, and tell us how you’ve been doing.â€
    Steve went on to speak of “happy anonymity†in Southwest Florida and his job of renovating old homes.
    He said he thinks about the case “quite often, if not daily.â€
    Tricia uses ST to introduce JK to the show, he speaks of first meeting JK as his Sergeant when he(ST) was starting out as patrol officer with the BPD.
    ST indicated that he was contacted by JK a “couple of times†in a professional capacity in the course of his investigation of the case.
    JK was introduced at around 17 minutes into the show.
    ST was asked about what surprised him in JK’s book.
    He said that the TDNA findings as revealed in the book and not disclosed by the DA’s office were “jaw-dropping.â€
    JK speaks to the issue of DNA, nothing new, just a brief recap.
    Tricia asks what the task force thought of the DNA evidence as presented, especially the additional TDNA. He said it “took us all by surprise.â€
    Tricia asks JK what he has been doing since the release of the book.
    He mentioned Tricia’s radio show, and a “couple of radio shows for some programs in Australia,†“I’ve had some calls from people in Great Britain and Australia,â€
    “I did have some conversations with TV networks about doing an investigative program but that hasn’t gone anywhere at the moment.â€
    “In October, I did a “meet the author†presentation at the library in Telluride.â€
    “There were some things in there that I wasn’t quite ready to have come out in video format so I asked them to pull it…â€
    “I’ve been asked to do another “meet the author†presentation at the end of January.â€
    Tricia and ST speak about interest in the JonBenet case in Australia and Great Britain.
    Tricia and ST recount meeting for lunch while she was visiting Byron Bay, Australia.
    Tricia asks JK whether he has heard anything from Lin Wood et al. Answer: no.
    Tricia takes a question from the chat room. Was any evidence of pornography found on any of the computers seized in the investigation?
    Answer: “I never discovered that in my reading of the reports.â€
    Then some further discussion relating to the fact that Lin Wood and others have been silent.
    Kolar points to the difference in publicity surrounding his book versus the release of ST’s book.
    Kolar admits that he didn’t do any major PR.
    Tricia follows up by asking if “Good Morning America†or others asked him to appear, if he would be interested.
    Answer: Those were some of the initial inquiries that came in not too long after the release of the book, but those discussions have kind of stalled at the moment, so I’m not sure what their interest still is at the moment, perhaps I should have taken advantage of that early on, not long after the book was published or even before the book was published, I just didn’t go that route, so… that’s where it stands today.
    Tricia brings up the Grand Jury. Is it possible to get GJ info released?
    Kolar says that that is more of a question for an attorney. The FOIA is discussed.
    Tricia turns to me at around the 50 minute mark and things start out with some audio problems which are quickly resolved.
    Thinking that I had a lot of time, (BIG MISTAKE,) I start by asking a very generic and trivial question: Did Kolar have Steve review his book prior to publishing?
    JK indicates that he had mentioned to ST that he was writing a book and had asked him a few questions but did not give him the book for review.
    I then unintentionally get into trouble with Tricia by asking about whether ST had made any inroads on JK’s theory or JK on ST, I guess that could be construed as asking ST an indirect question, although, I was my intent was to get Kolar’s impression from any discussion he may have had with Steve on the matter.
    As it turned out, both JK and ST replied in vague terms, the upshot of which, IMO, is that they both have their view and I don’t believe ST has come around to BDI.
    Tricia asks ST if he thinks there will ever be a resolution to the case
    Answer: I want to believe that.
    Question from the chat room: Can Mary Lacy be charged with anything for her role in the investigation.
    Answer: Question for an attorney but opinion is that she “hung her hat†on the DNA
    Then Tricia turns to KK
    First question: Was JonBenet in therapy as outlined in ST's book?
    Answer – JK doesn’t recall any mention of it in his reading of the records.
    Second question: Was poop testing done to find the poop perp?
    Answer – No.
    Third question: Burke’s PJ bottoms on the floor in JonBenet’s bedrom, true?
    Answer – Yes.
    In closing comments, JK indicated he is working on the e-book version of his book.
    The show segment with ST and JK wrapped up after 63 minutes.
  2. cynic

    cynic Member

    Over at WS I once made the comment that in the “fine print†of job prerequisites for the position of Boulder DA is that medical documentation must be shown to prove that they have been spayed or neutered prior to taking office. :D
  3. Elle

    Elle Member

    Thanks for the excellent recap of the show cynic.

    My own personal opinion about Mary Lacy is she became too friendly with the Ramseys and set them free!.
  4. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    My own personal opinion about Mary Lacy cannot be printed on this website.
  5. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    What were Burke's PJ bottoms doing on the floor of JonBenet's bedroom? And why was there fecal matter in them?

    FOR ONE THING, I don't know about any of you and your siblings, but if I had a ten-year-old brother when I was six, he wouldn't have been leaving his poop-soiled PJ bottoms in my room, and FOR ANOTHER THING, if that was done in Patsy's house, why didn't she make him pick up his PJs and put them in the wash or do it herself? Did Patsy never set foot in JonBenet's room, or did she not care that Burke was littering JonBenet's floor with his soiled clothing?

    Something like that should have been a MAJOR RED FLAG to Patsy that something was very wrong with Burke. There is no way ANYONE can spin this as normal behavior for a 10-year-old boy. It's no wonder John Ramsey and Lin Wood won't touch Kolar's book with a ten-foot pole! Can you imagine them trying to explain Burke's behavior and their refusal to grant access to his medical/psychological records to investigators?
  6. Karen

    Karen Member

    I can not envision any scenario in which Burkes soiled pj's would end up in JB's room. I mean, what did he do, deliberately poop in his pants and then walk into JBs room and take them off? Remove them in his own room or the bathroom and then carry them in to JB's room and deposit them on the floor?
    Did he use his fingers to scrape up his poop out of his pj bottoms and wipe it on JB's candy at the time he took the pj bottoms in there? Sorry, gross i know, but really, these things need to be dismantled in some way in order to try and figure out what went on. And when, FGS, did he do it? I mean, jeez, how long were those stinky bottoms and feces smeared candy laying in JB's room? Arianna was spending lots of time in there on the 23rd playing in JB's room while LHP helped Patsy get ready for the Chrismas party. Was it there then? I doubt it. So that narrows the timeline down a bit. I would love to hear from LHP about the condition of Burkes clothes, particularly pants, underwear and pj bottoms since she is the one who did the laundry and picked up the dirty clothes off the floor of their rooms.

    Although Kolar has obviously been counseled by attorneys not to lay this crime directly at Burkes feet i really doubt much would happen to him if he came right out and said what he only hints at via evidence in his book. Burke would never sue him because just think of what a can of worms that would open up to the public! Kolar did it right. We got the message and the Ramseys, Burke and JR, can do nothing about it because he did it right.
  7. cynic

    cynic Member

    Among other things, I find there to be a strange dichotomy present.
    On the one hand we read:
    “All her daughter’s clothes were organized in drawers. Turtlenecks in one drawer, pants in another, nighties and panties in one, socks in another. Days of the week on all their underclothes.â€
    But on the other hand, we read of fecal matter on clothing, bedding and candy coupled with a general reluctance to deal with any disorder.
    “That’s what she’d(Patsy) say about everything, any kind of clutter: ‘Just take it down to the basement. I don’t want to see it.’â€

    Some relevant material:
    There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.
    Additionally, a box of candy located in her bedroom had also been observed to be smeared with feces. Both of these discoveries had been made during the processing of the crime scene during the execution of search warrants following the discovery of JonBenét’s body.
    I wondered whether fecal material observed in pajamas thought to belong to Burke, and smeared on the box of candy in his sister’s bedroom, could have been related to the symptoms of scatological behavior associated with SBP.
    I also contemplated the reasons why a box of JonBenét’s candy would have been smeared with human excrement.
    As noted previously, Linda Hoffman-Pugh had also mentioned finding fecal material in JonBenét’s bed sheets. It raised the question as to who may have been responsible for the deposit of that material in her bed – had it been JonBenét or was it Burke?

    Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 370 - 371

    I first met JonBenét when she was in preschool. She was home, like, half a day. Patsy called her Jonnie B. I spent half my time picking up after her. She and her brother would just leave everything on the floor—their socks, their shoes, toys, books, just everything. They were never trained to put things away properly.
    I always came in the side door, and I’d walk right into the kitchen and not know where to start. Dishes all over. If they had Ovaltine, the jar would still be open. I always had to wipe the peanut butter off the counter.
    “I think we ought to get a hamper,†I told Patsy.
    “Yeah, that sounds good,†she answered. But we never got one.
    “Linda is not here to pick up,†Patsy’s mother would say. “She’s here to clean. How do you expect her to do a good job if she’s picking up?â€
    “OK, Mom, I’ll work it out.â€
    Patsy’s clothes went into the laundry chute. I never had to pick up after John. Maybe once—a pair of shoes. Patsy changed purses once a week. She’d lay her purse on the spiral staircase, and I’d clean it out and put it in the closet. She had maybe forty of them, and even more pairs of shoes.
    I think the problem with the children was they didn’t have any responsibility. They were spoiled. Burke had this red Scout knife and always whittled. He’d never use a bag or paper to catch the shavings. He’d whittle all over the place. I asked Patsy to have a talk with him. She answered, “Well, I don’t know what to do other than take the knife away from him.†After Thanksgiving I took that knife away from him and hid it in the cupboard just outside JonBenét’s room. That’s how that problem was solved.
    These weren’t naughty children. They dressed themselves, and Patsy did JonBenét’s hair. All her daughter’s clothes were organized in drawers. Turtlenecks in one drawer, pants in another, nighties and panties in one, socks in another. Days of the week on all their underclothes.

    “Just go away and leave me alone,†JonBenét said when I tried to help her with her boots. Sometimes she acted like a spoiled brat.
    “No, don’t you answer the door,†she’d say when someone went to open it at a luncheon Patsy gave. “I’m answering the door.â€
    JonBenét spent a lot of her time sitting on her bed watching Shirley Temple movies on her VCR. She loved them all.
    She also loved being in pageants. If she didn’t want to go, Patsy didn’t make her. Nedra used to bring lots of things for JonBenét to wear. Nedra did most of the pageant planning. JonBenét would have to practice singing and dancing. Nedra and Patsy’s sister Pam would decorate JonBenét’s shoes, her gloves, put sequins on her hats. Some dresses were made from scratch, but they had fun altering most things. They prepared differently for each pageant. Sometimes it would take a month. They were always reworking something.
    JonBenét played a lot with Daphne, the Whites’ little girl. They were real close. And Burke had his friends, the Walker and Stine children.
    When the Ramseys traveled, I started taking the children’s dog, Jacques, home with me. It would always yip, yip, yip, and I couldn’t take it. Joe Barnhill, the elderly neighbor from across the street, started watching Jacques, and they got attached to each other. Before long the dog was always running across the street to the Barnhills’ house. Jacques started staying there, and when JonBenét wanted to see her dog, she went over and played with him.
    In the summer of 96, JonBenét started wearing those diaper-type underpants—Pull-Ups. She even wore them to bed. There was always a wet one in the trash. By the end of the summer, Patsy was trying to get her to do without them. Then JonBenét started wetting the bed again. Almost every day I was there, there was a wet bed. Patsy said she wasn’t going to use Pull-Ups again. She just put a plastic cover on the bed. No big deal to her. By the time I’d come in the morning, Patsy would have all the sheets off the bed and in the laundry. JonBenét’s white blanket would already be in the dryer. The Ramseys had two washer-dryers—one in the basement and a stackable unit in a closet just outside JonBenét’s room.
    Patsy started to take a painting class, and JonBenét drew a lot with crayons and markers. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenét painted on a card table in the butler’s kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement when she was having some kind of party. That’s what she’d say about everything, any kind of clutter: “Just take it down to the basement. I don’t want to see it.†On the day of the Ramseys’ Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs.
    Evenings were for the family. They did homework and had dinner together. Patsy worked on school projects with the kids. She was always doing something for the children on her computer. She read to them at bedtime. Sometimes she asked me to baby-sit if she couldn’t find a sitter.
    Patsy spent a lot of time alone in the house while John was away on business. She never kept a baseball bat under the bed, or Mace. Never even set the alarm. She didn’t like it, because it went off accidentally and it drove the police crazy.
    The last month I was there, nothing was different. Patsy went to New York with her family and some friends. JonBenét even ice-skated at Rockefeller Center. When they came back, they got ready for another pageant. Patsy was always putting things off until the last minute.
    On December 23, JonBenét was playing with makeup. “JonBenét, you are not going anywhere with all that on,†Patsy told her. “You take some of it off.†JonBenét did. At one o’clock she went to play with some friends and was back by four o’clock. Late that afternoon, she didn’t want to wear a dress for their Christmas party. Patsy got a little agitated. Finally, JonBenét put on a velvet one with short sleeves.
    I stuck around with my daughter Ariana to see Santa. We hadn’t planned to stay, so Ariana wasn’t dressed up. Patsy gave my daughter a Christmas sweater and a vest. Even lent her a pair of her shoes. At the last minute, Patsy wrote a little verse about Ariana for Santa to read.
    At 5:30 P.M. Santa showed up. By then the Barnhills, the Fernies, the Stines, Pinky Barber, and the Whites, who came with Priscilla’s parents, had all arrived. Maybe eight couples and their children. Most of the men gathered by the spiral staircase. John made drinks for everybody from the butler’s kitchen. The kids played in the living room by the big Christmas tree. That’s where Santa read his little verses about everyone. This year Mrs. Claus was there too. Santa looked kind of sick.
    I was supposed to come back the next day, December 24, and clean up. I called Patsy and said I couldn’t. I told her I had a fight with my sister and needed some money to pay the rent. I asked Patsy for a $2,000 loan. I told her I would pay it back $50 each week.
    She didn’t hesitate. “Sure.†Said she’d leave it for me on the kitchen counter for my next regular visit on December 27.
    The more I think about it, JonBenét could not have been killed by a stranger. I didn’t even know that room was there. How could a stranger know to go there? How in the world did this happen?
    —Linda Hoffmann-Pugh

    Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 235 - 239

    Instead of focusing on the family, the police investigation was headed another way, toward Linda Hofftmann-Pugh, the Ramseys’ housekeeper. Despite being overcome with grief, she furnished the startling information that the little girl had a problem wetting her bed. That was of great interest to the police. Often the fouling of a bed is seen in cases of incest, as a child tries to appear undesirable to an offender.
    For the first six months Hoffmann-Pugh worked there, she said, JonBenét wet the bed every night, and Patsy even had the girl in pull-up diapers. Then the bed-wetting had stopped, but it had resumed about a month ago. When Hoffmann-Pugh arrived for work, she said, Patsy already had the bed stripped and the sheets going in the washing machine.
    She told the police that the problem also extended to JonBenét soiling the bed, and recalled once finding fecal matter the size of a grapefruit on the sheets.

    JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, pages 37 - 38

    Holly Smith remembers walking up the steps to the Ramsey home: the big candy canes more jarring than festive considering the circumstances. The house was lavishly decorated.
    Smith recalls, "It was big and it was meandering and it was schmanzy fancy."
    It was the third day of the investigation into the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Smith was head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team and has been called into the investigation, as she says, "to consult about some of the dynamics and some of the things people suspected might be going on with this case."
    She started, as always, with a visit to the child’s bedroom.
    "That's a really important piece of getting a real feel for a family," Smith explains.
    With portfolio pictures galore and closets full of JonBenet’s elaborate pageant outfits, Smith says she had a hard time getting a feel for who the little girl really was, even in her bedroom.

    She recalls, "I just had a sense the type of decor in her bedroom was not really a child's decor."
    One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenet’s secret stash of candy.
    She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material.
    "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith.
    JonBenet also had a history of bedwetting. While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions.

    "It's very different for every child, but when you have a child that's had this problem and it's pretty chronic for that child, and in addition you know some sort of physical evidence or trauma or an allegation, you put all those little pieces together and it just goes in your head," she says.
    Smith adds, "There was an indication of trauma in the vaginal area."
    The coroner's autopsy discovered evidence investigators say indicates JonBenet suffered vaginal trauma the night she was murdered. However the autopsy report also describes evidence of possible prior vaginal trauma. Experts disagree about the significance of that.
    It could indicate previous injury or infection, a sign of abuse, or nothing at all.
    Arapahoe County Coroner Dr. Michael Doberson says you would need more information before you could come to any conclusion. That was part of Smith's job. But then she was abruptly pulled off the investigation and told police were handling everything.
    "There was a lot of territoriality around the case,†she says.
    Smith says she also saw things in the Ramsey investigation that she's seen in other cases, like the factor that money played in it.
    "No one is exempt but people with money are able to keep themselves more cushioned,†she says.
    She says she also saw a reluctance to even consider the issue of child sex abuse.
    Says Smith, "It’s just not a place where you know it's so abhorrent to people that they can't even do it, they can't even wrap their heads around it but it's more common than we think. The sexual violation of children has been around for a long time."

    Smith believes all of them involved with the case lost their way.
    She concludes, "In all the hyper-personalization around this case, everybody wanting a piece of it, everybody wanting to be the hero understandably and wanting to find out what happened to this little girl, our purpose really got lost. We lost sight of this child."
    In her writing, Smith describes seeing a picture of a smiling JonBenet, taken Christmas morning and tells how distressing it was to realize the child would die what she called a hideous death that very day.

    Fox 31 News, Nov 13, 2006
  8. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Thanks, cynic, for posting all this for us. Love the recap, as well.

    One thing: I meant to ask Kolar if the pj's in the floor were definitely BOYS bottoms, versus girls? Did I not get that out? lol I was talking faster than I usually do, since Tricia was chasing me around with the stage-hook, so it's hard to remember what I actually said. :laughup:
  9. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    I can't understand what Burke's pj bottoms would have been doing in his sister's room...PERIOD.

    His clothes weren't in there.

    And what did he wear OUT of the room if he left his pj bottoms in the room?

    Were his underwear in them, as well?
  10. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member


    The 23rd was only two days before JB was killed. So it would seem those pj bottoms were dropped in the floor on the 23rd after the party, or the 24th, Christmas Eve, or the 25th, the night she was murdered.

    Let's say it was the 23rd: for two more days and nights no one in the family noticed them or bothered to pick something so disgusting out of the floor and put it down the laundry chute? I know Patsy was a slob, and cynic's quotes from sources describe the children as leaving clothing on the floor all the time for the maid to pick up. So I guess Patsy didn't bother, either. This is a possibility, then.

    Or were the bottoms left in the floor on the 24th? That's Christmas Eve. Didn't Patsy tell LE JB slept in Burke's room that night? Sorry, I'll have to go back to the transcripts and look that up again, but I remember something like that being discussed. If JB slept in Burke's room, then why would he be leaving his pj bottoms in her room that night? And of course, we are talking about what Patsy said, which means it could be a complete fabrication of events.

    One thing we do know is that Burke had on pj bottoms in the Christmas morning photos. So if he left his pj bottoms in JB's room the Christmas Eve night before or Christmas morning, he put on another pair for opening the presents. Which doesn't seem to make sense, unless the fecal matter in the bottoms in her room explain this. But that's right back to why was he taking his soiled pj bottoms off in her bedroom in the first place?

    Then there was the 25th. JB died that night. Her blood, possibly bloody mucous from her nose, according to Haney's questions to Patsy in 1998, was on her pillowcase. The Ramseys claim after coming home from the Whites' party to have put JB to bed and then Burke, before going to bed themselves. Let's pretend there's anything true in that: so why would Burke's pj's be dropped in her bedroom THAT night?

    So let's say Burke didn't drop them in the floor on Christmas night. That leaves the 23rd and 24th, with them lying there for two days.

    So back to why would Burke be dropping his pj's in his sister's room ANYTIME? Of course the chronic vaginal injuries come to mind.

    And wasn't there one version of what happened Christmas Day that had JB sick? Was that the former maid's story? Or was that the Ramsey's? Anyone remember that from one of the thousand sources?

    You know, I may be way too biased at this point to be objective, but does ANYONE ELSE believe Patsy wouldn't have noticed her older son's pj bottoms in her little girl's bedroom floor for a day or two? It's like that flap of hymen, an "eroded" ring of tissue in a six year old child: I find it hard to think that didn't bleed from time to time. Even a few drops of blood would have ended up in the child's underwear or pj bottoms, it would seem. How can Patsy never have noticed that?

    Oh, I just had a thought: was this why Patsy took to washing the bedsheets before the maid got there? To hide something besides bedwetting?

    Remember the calls to Dr. Beuf after hours on Dec. 17th, which neither Patsy nor the good pediatrician could remember what they discussed--amazingly enough....

    For the sake of argument, let's say Patsy did know something was very wrong between her children. Would she just leave Burke's soiled pj's in the floor for a day or two during Christmas? Or would she be very sensitive to finding them there, and if she were attempting to handle the issue herself, pick them up? Maybe even confront the children about this again?

    But the pj bottoms were there when the CSI processed JB's room. If they were boys' bottoms and they were Burke's--and what other boy would be in a position to leave his pj bottoms in JB's bedroom--what if he left them there on Christmas night, Dec. 25th?

    That would be...a big clue.

    Sorry, I know I'm rambling here. Any ideas?
  11. Elle

    Elle Member

    I believe you, and fully understand Cherokee!
  12. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Perhaps, Burke didn't wear underwear to bed, only his PJ bottoms?

    That's the only reason I can think of as to why there was fecal matter in his PJ bottoms that should have been caught in his underwear.

    IMHO, Burke didn't wear anything else out of JonBenet's room. He stripped off his PJ bottoms in JonBenet's room, then left with his lower body naked (or perhaps he was totally naked with no top on). It would be interesting to know where Burke's matching PJ top was located, or if Burke even slept in a PJ top. Some boys don't.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    It would be interesting to know if LE every found JB's pink pj bottoms which seem to have disappeared. I don't remember that anyone ever said they did, but I could be forgetting. It's something I've wondered about for a very long time. Seems important anyway.

    But we do have a photo of Burke with his pj bottoms and matching top on for opening presents that Christmas morning, I'm thinking...with airplanes on them? Or am I imagining that?
  14. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    Yes, we have that photo. So maybe he slept with a PJ top, or only wore it downstairs for photos on Christmas morning. Who knows? It doesn't really matter except it's weird for only Burke's soiled PJ bottoms to be in JonBenet's room with no matching PJ top. If there were, then a person could believe Burke possibly changed his clothes in there, but with only the soiled PJ bottoms in JonBenet's room, it is a deliberately disgusting act by a disturbed ten-year-old.

    IMHO, it is probable that Burke used the fecal material in his PJ bottoms to smear on JonBenet's candy, then left the PJ bottoms lying on the floor in her room. If there was enough fecal matter to smear, then we are not talking "skid marks" in the pajamas, but defecation.
  15. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    Good lord, I have never in my entire life had discussions like these.... If my husband had any idea we debate these things here, he'd have me committed, I'm fairly sure.... :eek:

    Am I the only one thinking the pj's in the floor might have something to do with the chronic sexual abuse?
  16. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm having trouble with all of this, Cherokee. It's hard for me to imagine the state of JonBenét's room with all these soiled jammies on the floor. How on earth did Patsy Ramsey manage to be in her daughter's room in this state and leave it like this all day; then get JonBenét dressed early evening for the White's party? Come home again and walk into this room again to put JonBenét to bed. How did both Ramseys put up with the smell of the soiled jammies etc. I'm stunned about this part! Anyone else having problems with this?

    Why didn't the Ramseys even clean this up while they were staging? Something is just not right with this scene!

    I know Linda Hoffman was off for the day, but how lazy can you get? This is Puke City for me!

    Now, I must let this blow away in the wind, the quicker, the better! :)
  17. cynic

    cynic Member

    These are the two that I have.


  18. Karen

    Karen Member

    I am in the camp that Jonbenet did indeed sleep in brother Burkes room on Christmas eve. She didn't wet the bed that night IMO because she is pictured on Christmas morning opening presents in the pink pjs. There were actually some posters here a while back who tried to convince me that Jonbenet had slept in her own bed on Christmas Eve, had wet it, and had changed into the clean pink pj's on Christmas morning. We were discussing when JB's sheets had last been changed. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now. She did not sleep in her bed Christmas Eve NOR did she ever make it to her bed Christmas night. IMO of course!!
    I only meantion that because this conversation about Burke wearing both top and bottoms dowstairs to open Christmas presents sounds like he had changed pjs for opening Christmas presents too lie some of the other posters insist JB did. So now we have BOTH the children changing into clean pjs christmas morning to come down and open Christmas presents? One because she peed in her pjs and one because he pooped in his?? That's entirely illogical, IMO.
    I can see the soiled pj bottoms playing out more like a practical joke by Burke. Like maybe he carried them in there to gross out Jonbenet instead of actually removing them in her room. I don't know. I surely can not explain the candy though.
    Let's not forget that MISS PATSY spent a good deal of time in Jonbenets room on Christmas DAY when she was arguing with JB over the red turtleneck top. If those stinky pjs and candy were in there wouldn't she smell them? Now the question is did she smell and see them and do nothing? I'm thinking that stuff probably wasn't there when Patsy was there during the day. It kind of almost proves to me what I've always thought about what happened Christmas night. Patsy never spent time in jbs room christmas night putting her to bed.
  19. cynic

    cynic Member

    Q. (By Mr. Levin) It was brought to my attention fairly recently that a woman I believe named Jean Fortier, F-o-r-t-i-e-r, for the reporter, who are the parents of some children who were over your house on Christmas, and they, they, she, excuse me, said that her children reported to her at Christmas day when they went over to play, they played with Burke but that JonBenet did not play because she was sick. I hadn't heard that before. Is that nonsense?
    A. Absolutely. I don't know who that is, but we had a whole parcel of kids there all day.
    John Ramsey Interview, Atlanta, 2000
  20. Cherokee

    Cherokee FFJ Senior Member

    I am not sure if you are referring to anything I said, but if you are, then there is a misunderstanding. I was not saying Burke changed PJs to go down and open Christmas presents. I was merely postulating reasons why only Burke's soiled PJ bottoms were in JonBenet's room, with no PJ top. I said perhaps Burke didn't usually sleep with a PJ top, but (was told to) put one on in order to open presents because photos would be taken of the event. It was merely speculation on my part about whether Burke usually wore a PJ top to bed or not. Just because he is seen in one for Christmas morning photos doesn't mean he always slept in one, but then again, he could have.

    To repeat, I do not believe Burke changed PJs to open Christmas presents, and I never said that, nor meant to imply that, from anything I wrote.

    It is possible Burke carried the soiled PJ bottoms, with enough excrement in them to smear on JonBenet's candy, into JonBenet's bedroom. It is true he did not have to be wearing them at the time.
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