One Piece of "Physical" Evidence - Hanging?

You're welcome! Plus there was another time error on the LKL show tylin. John Ramsey made a statement "there was a crowd there that morning at 3:00 am." That's a funny time considering the crowd was there after 6:00 am on the 26 Dec. Thor is the poster I remember coming up with this one, which made us wonder if anyone else had been there before the 911 call.
Frustrating, isn't it?

Of course, they could very easily say they were stressed out, and get away with. They have, haven't they? So far (?).

 

That psychologist guy who worked with the BDA on the case for five years just said there is NO EVIDENCE that hasn't come out on this case in books, articles, on TV, and on the internet.

 

Sorry girls and boys, I have come across my bad post. I must have written it out more than once. :stupid1: I did pick up and put commas in the right place, I did! I did! I did! Besides. I'm a Senior, so please forgive me. *blush*:banghead:


N.B. The Ramsey family, plus Melinda's fiancé went into a van to have a discussion. John Ramsey tells them he found her at eleven o'clock that morning (26 December, 1996).

 

Lol, you know? I would go along with this "finding the body in the van"...why not? The BDA and RST aren't following any real leads anyway, what's one more misleading clue? lol Besides, as it is, police have recorded the fact that John stated to family he found the body at 11:00 a.m. -- yet here we are 10 years later and one less detective (Arndt) on the police -- and the BDA is chasing this down as if John really found that body at 1:30 p.m.!

Anyway, as regards John Walsh, he caused all kinds of misunderstandings when he came out with that "hanging" business. It's unfortunate the police had to take the rap for "misinformation" when clearly, Walsh was the one who screwed it up.

JonBenet was laid out on her back with her hands raised over her head. That's how the killer placed her at death and that's how she remained until John picked her up and brought her upstairs that afternoon.

Rigor mortis and livor mortis begin to set into the body immediately upon death. The muscles tighten up and the body is immovable - rigor mortis; blood gravitates to the lowest point of the body as it rests in death - livor mortis.

If a body dies in one position, it begins to mortis in that position. If the body is then moved, the body readjusts and mortises with the new position. IOW, it is easily recognizable and detectable if a body has been moved after death.

In JonBenet's case, her body mortised in the position it was found in. It wasn't moved at any point once the mortises began.

For example, say she had been hung by her neck. The blood would have gravitated to her feet, discoloring those extremities. Yet this was not evident. Likewise, if she'd been hung by her arms, again, depending on how she was hung from her arms, the mortises would have shown that....but there is nothing to indicate any kind of hanging or any other position different from the one she was found in. One could argue that we'd be taking John's word for how he found the body, but don't forget, Fleet White was standing right behind John.

I also remember reading something about how Ardnt could actually "see" the mortising in JonBenet's backside when the body was brought upstairs and placed under the tree. I took that to mean that the backside had flattened somewhat and the sweater must've risen enough so that Arndt could see the discoloration.

 

I've always thought that maybe JonBenet's body was dragged (pulled by the arms) from the actual place she was killed, to another location. Then, when no one found the body, John carried, not dragged, the body (which by then was in full rigor, with the arms still overhead), to the place he ultimately "found" it.

 

Time to get a bit more specific. Jmho, but I believe the headblow came first, knocking her unconcious and unable to struggle. As we know, there were no signs of struggle. I also think the parents believed the blow killed her.

Sooooo....it's possible she was dragged unconcious into the wine cellar...she wasn't dead yet so the mortises hadn't started.

But now to the specifics. She died from asphyxiation associated with the head blow. IOW, if not strangled, she'd have died from the head blow. BUT...I think the parents either knew that, or thought she was already dead...or very, very close. [As an aside, imagine the sound of her skull practically cracking in half, and then she dropped to the floor. How would the parents react? Get help? But that headblow was crushing, loud, and she dropped. What would it do to her? Would she be the same person? Would she have brain damage? Perhaps it would be better if she was dead.]

As she lay unconcious, I believe this is when all the staging occurred.

No signs of struggle or defending herself, her hair got caught up in the ligature; the wrist ligatures were loose and held no value except to look like she had been tied up. But again, no abrasions or other sign of struggle or defense. When the stick was inserted into her, she was still alive because she bled -- and again, no sign of struggle.

The duct tape was placed on her mouth to explain why no one heard her scream out in the night. She didn't scream -- she didn't struggle -- she didn't defend herself. But she was alive when the tape was stuck to her mouth as evidenced in the autopsy report. Remember, her head was tilted and rested on her shoulder with a mucous run that ran from her nose, across her cheek and dripped, leaving a couple of small stains on the sleeve of her sweatshirt. So? No screaming, but mucous runs? She was alive. But she was unconcious.

Even the neck ligature, cutting as deep as it did, was a single line around the neck. She didn't struggle.

So back to the point of the mortises, since I believe she was unconscious while all the staging went on, the mortises wouldn't have started until after she was strangled. By that time, she was laid out, covered and entombed (lights out and door closed) before she died and thus, no indications of her being moved or position changed.

Hmmmm...so now I've come up with TWO reasons why the parents would have staged the crimescene: (1) hide molestation and (2) take her out of her misery given she'd never be the same person.

Can you think of TWO reasons why an intruder would stage a crimescene? How 'bout ONE reason?

 

Ginja

Where does your rigor mortis information come from? I can only find the following, as regards mortis, in the autopsy report. I'm not comfortable going with what Linda Arndt said she saw since she is not a medical doctor or pathologist - hell, calling her a detective was a stretch, IMO.

"Around the right wrist is a yellow
metal identification bracelet with the name "JonBenet" on one
side and the date "12/25/96" on the other side. A red ink line
drawing in the form of a heart is located on the palm of the
left hand. The fingernails of both hands are of sufficient
length for clipping. Examination the back is unremarkable.
There is dorsal 3+ to 4+l livor mortis which is nonblanching.
Livor mortis is also present of the right side of the face. At
the time of the initiation of the autopsy there is mild 1 to
2+ rigor mortis of the elbows and shoulders with more advanced
2 to 3+ rigor mortis of the joints of the lower extremities."

More advanced in the joints of the LOWER extremeties. This is ALL the autopsy says in reference to mortises, rigor or otherwise. There are pictures that compare Jonbenet's neck injuries to those of a chlld who was hanged - side by side - if not too offensive, I can post them here. I also have a friend in med school who is going to write more about this and the pictures of JonBenet posted on the Internet.

 

Pictures for comparison

This victim in the middle was strangled With A Scarf. Notice the unusual mark in approximately the same location as the mark on JonBenét's neck

 

IF she were in the constant supine (face up) position, her back would have shown Livor Mortis on the neck, (as in the suppprtive photo) the sacral area, the buttocks, and the inferior arch of the scapulae. From the autopsy report, she had significantly more substantial rigor in the LOWER EXTREMITIES which is not supportive of a consistent position after death. And, to date, I have not seen photos or descriptions of her feet, leaving the post mortem pooling to the imagination. Ligature marks on her neck, are consistent with strangulation, but more significantly, as it appears to be a large, right-handed thumb impression over her anterior sterno-cledo mastoid. (not assumption, the index finger, as though strangled from behind, produces significantly less pressure than an anteriorily placed thumb, with downward force).

And while I am on this tirade. I DO NOT believe that "Mr. Butter-Buds" (term used by transexuals for their newly emerging breasts) could overpower a five year old, much less a 6 year old accostomed to fighting with her older brother.

 

I believe that Rigor mortis is NOT related to position (although LIVER mortis is). The only relation of rigor mortice to position is that whatever postion the body was in when rigor mortis begins in the postion it will stay in.
I think it always begins from the facial muscles, the proceeds to the other parts of the body (like this article shows). After it reaches a peak, it starts to go away as the tissues break down - as this article states; it reaches a peak at approximately 12 hours and then starts to gradually dissipate. I'm not an expert, but the rigor mortis in the lower extremities being more advanced in the lower extremities than in the upper ones may mean nothing or it may mean that rigor was starting to dissipate in the upper body.
Does anyone know how warm the basement was? I don't know for sure, but it's possible that rigor mortis might recede faster in a warm basement because decomposition would occur faster in a warm environment than a cold one.

 

Response to Sue

Let me see if I remember this from my physiology days..... At the tissue
level of muscles, the functional unit is called a sarcomere. This is made
of
2 types of filaments-actin and myosin. Myosin filaments are thick and have
little "heads" along their length that look kind of like the heads on a golf
club. The actin filaments are thinner, but made of 2 strings kind of wound
around each other like 2 strings of pearls. Along the length of the actin
filaments there are molecules called troponin. During a muscle contraction,
thousands of sarcomeres made up of actin and myosin are activated by calcium
which pours into the tissue. The calcium binds to the troponin on the actin
and causes a site on the actin to be exposed which allows the heads on the
myosin to attach there. The energy for this is provided by ATP. When that
happens the myosin and actin are pulled toward each other shortening the
sarcomere. Because muscle is made of millions of sarcomeres all shortening
the overall result is that the whole muscle shortens. Once the contraction
is finished, the calcium lets go, and the myosin lets go and the muscle
returns to its original length. So-your question was about rigor mortis!!
After death, calcium is still present in the tissue so contraction can still
occur. But the myosin cannot let go of the actin filaments because ATP is
no
longer being synthesized. So the muscles are stuck in contraction. IT
lasts
for about 24 hours, but then dissipates after another 12 hours as muscles
begin to deteriorate.

It was winter, in Colorado, in what was to be a wine cellar....at best maybe 46-56 degrees which would "keep" the state much longer. Still, the body does not decompose from the head down when in a supine position.

 

rigor

Rigor mortis relaxes in the same order it progresses in.
Also in the sliding filament theory which you have described, if I remember my A&P correctly after so many years, it is an oxygen molecule that is the trigger for the process and rigor is caused because there are no longer any oxygen molecules available. Don't remember much since I took the class in 1982 but I do remember that.
I do know that rigor "freezes" or locks the muscles in the position they are in at the time rigor starts in that area of the body - if the arms are overhead they will remain that way until the rigor relaxes but the order it develops and relaxes doesn't depend on the position of the body and is related to physiology rather than anatomy.

 

IF JonBenet's body had been laying on the floor for several hours, the blood would have pooled accordingly. IF she was later moved ... hung ... then it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to prove that ... and that would point DIRECTLY to JOHN ... NOT an intruder!!!

And BTW ... if the "cutting down" was soooOoo secret that only the murderer would know about it, then how does Walsh (and presumably Tracey) know about it?


...YumYum

 

I have four words for ya yumyum

lizard Lips Sink Ships​

 

Elle,
I've forgotten so much about the case and you are up on the info..thank you again. :jumpie: :rrcrown:

Now why would JR make so many mistakes about the time people arrived at his home and about when he found the body? IMO, Because he wasn't telling the truth.

 

From Websleuths

This was posted in Feb. 2004

BlueCrab
Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,847

Two separate ligatures?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The upper circumferential marks around JonBenet's neck were obviously the result of the 1/4" nylon cord ligature found tightly imbedded in her skin. The cause of the lower circumferential mark is less obvious.

As just mentioned, the lower circumferential mark does not appear on the left side of JonBenet's neck and that begs the question WHY?

One explanation is there were TWO ligatures, one being the 1/4" diameter braided nylon cord used to asphyxiate JonBenet and the other one a 1/2" diameter 3-strand twisted manila rope used to HANG HER for grotesque display purposes. In this scenario John found the body much earlier that morning and cut her down to give JonBenet a measure of dignity in death.

If the body had been hung the body weight would cause the circumferential abrasion from the rope to be more severe on the opposite side of the knot (the right side of the neck). The bulky knot on the left side would have caused the 1 1/2" by 3/4" triangular abrasion on the lower left side of the neck just above the lower circumferential abrasion and would have forced the head to look toward the right.

JMO

 

I found a post life picture of JonBenet that somehow I missed up until this week, from Henry Lee's book maybe. I will add it here for thoughts.

And for ACR to snag.......

 

That is a hair clip - not a a hair tie - how comfortable are those to sleep in, Ladies?

And look at those roots......Bless her heart. As Hank Jr sings - Long Blonde hair and dark brown roots......

This brings me right back to my pet theory which I try to keep to myself, but what the Hey - Patsy sanctioned of her Daughter's hair for that important touch up - divided her hair off with the clips while JonBenet was SUPPOSED to sit still with her snack........as a woman that can throw a female offspring out at the drop of a hat, I can also VOUCH for how much 6 year old little girls LOVE to sit still.....and get their hair brushed.......or dyed but I have nada experience with that one......one thing led to another.........and that's as far I as go for now.

 

makes sense to me.
Hair clips would not be comfortable to sleep in. I might go to bed with one in if I forgot it was there, but I would quickly remove it after lying down. Even if it was on the top of the head and not in contact with the bed, it would still pull the hair once I laid down.
Plus - if a pediphile did it - why?
It would seem to be something un-attractive to me (but, I'm not a male and certainly not a pediphile).

 

As another poster noted, the rigor mortis regresses in the same order it progressed. Also note that by the time the autopsy was performed, it was almost two days after she died, so this was merely what was left as rigor regressed.

Likewise, the livor mortis is where it would be if she was laying on her back, i.e., her back and the right side of her face.

For you gurus who want to figure rate of progression/regression of the mortises, note that she was in the cold wine cellar for approximately 12 hours postmortem; John brought the body upstairs at approximately 1:30 p.m. and laid her out under the tree where the house was heated. She remained there until they removed the body from the home at what? approximately 10-10:30 p.m. that night? Then, she was transferred to the morgue where she was likely placed on a metal slab in a freezer and remained there until the autopsy.

I'm not sure -- I can't remember -- when the autopsy was performed. Was it the following day? the 27th?

One last thing, note the autopsy report's findings on livor mortis. It appears to be where it should have been, i.e., the body wasn't moved. There is no other indication of livor mortis nor is there any mention of the possibility or certainty of the body being moved, i.e., change in markings of livor mortis.

As regards hanging? There is absolutely no indication of that whatsoever. Read further into the autopsy report where they sliced into the neck and checked out the muscles and whatnot. If she had been hung, hell...if she'd been manually strangled...there would have been indications in the autopsy report of such findings. Bones, cartilege, muscles....everything was fine. I don't have the report on hand and I'm at work so I can't refer to the AR, but I remember in old discussions of this same topic that nothing indicated any injuries to the neck. I'm sure, too, that Wecht went into this more fully in his book.