Patsy and the Red Jumpsuit

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by Watching You, Feb 5, 2004.

  1. Niner

    Niner Active Member

    Now I actually DO believe Patsy when she says she rinsed out that red turleneck - because it WAS urine stained.

    and about those turleneck shirt-things that fasten at the crotch area - I had about 5 different ones a while back in the '70s. I believe I still have 2 in my closet! :)
  2. Niner

    Niner Active Member

    Elle - I believe it was you, or maybe Moab - but about that bag of children's clothes - I believe that was found by Priscilla, who put them in the hall closet. They contained winter clothes for Burke & JonBenet for Michigan.
  3. Elle

    Elle Member

    Niner, I did mention that Patsy talked about a laundry bag of clothes. Maybe Moab did too (?). In "Death of Innocence" HB page 10 - Paraphrasing: Patsy doesn't even mention rinsing out the red jumpsuit here. She talks about skipping her shower because hers was broken; reaching for her clothes, dressing and hurrying down the back stairs from their bedroom to the second floor, where the children's bedrooms are. She turns to the laundry area and shoves some of the laundry into a garbage bag because John likes soft sided bags much better for loading in the plane.

    Patsy definitely talks about rinsing out a jumpsuit in the NE Police files. I was talking strictly about the laundry bag. I remember thinking that if she was in a hurry, she could just have slipped the jumpsuit inside her laundry bag, but maybe it was badly soiled and had to be rinsed. Even wet, it could still have gone into her laundry bag (?).

    One bag was taken to the police station by Linda Arndt. Can't confirm this for you right this minute. Maybe later! Just off the top of my head.

    It seems there may have been another bag according to what you're saying, Niner (?).
  4. Niner

    Niner Active Member

    sorry to bring up a week old thread - but I didn't want Elle to think I was ignoring her!! :-(


    oh, okay - I know what your connecting on now!!

    Yes!! There was. This was a brown paper sack with JonBenet's & Burke's winter clothes in them sitting at the bottom of the spiral staircase. I 'believe' it was Priscilla that put this in the hall closet the morning of 12/26 - sorry - I can't quote from a book - because I went to the library and checked out various books on the case - but I'm sure someone here can verify that! :)
  5. Elle

    Elle Member

    That's okay, Niner, thank you for getting back to me and filling me in on the other bag. I never thought you were ignoring me! ;)
  6. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    I think there were two items of clothing:

    1) Red turtleneck shirt that should have been worn with the black velvet pants to the White's party. This item was on JBR's bathroom sink. It was not wet, from what I have read. I think it was just discarded there...

    2) Red jumpsuit. Previously, I thought this item was a dress that was kind of like over-alls for JBR to wear over a shirt and tights. However, now I know that this item was more like what I call a leotard. My daughter uses these in gymnastics and sometimes they come with a skirt. This item was a the wash-station outside of JBR's bedroom.

    There are definitely two distinct items.

    I don't think Patsy actually stopped on the morning of the 26th to wash out a stain on the red leotard. I sincerely don't think she would care much about stains on her child's clothing considering the fact that, in my opinion, she just accidentally killed her child.

    I do, however, think that Patsy might have tended to the stain on this leotard on the night of the 25th, or maybe even the morning of the 25th or some other time.

    The fact that cleaning out the spot seemed like such a normal thing to do and the fact that actually doing so was fresh in Patsy's memory, allowed Patsy to calmly present it as a memory of the morning of the 26th.

    Regarding the red turtleneck: I noticed that some of you think exactly the same way I do about this article of clothing. In short, I think Patsy 'gently' strangled JBR with the shirt.

    Instead of retyping how I think it happened, I will just paste in my post from C&J. Some of you may have read it:

    Remember how Patsy wanted JBR to wear the red shirt on Christmas night? I think JBR was actually awake that night. Maybe she woke up, or maybe she was never asleep. Somehow, I can see her pattering about the house while Patsy frantically gets ready for a trip she would rather not take. This is when JB ate the pineapple.

    I used to use a 'trick' on my wolfkid during her preschool years in order to make sure she was ready in time for school. I would get her dressed the night before school in the clothes she was going to wear for her early-morning class. That way, we wouldn't have a problem in the morning. Needless to say, wolfkid wore a bunch of soft, stretchy clothes to school, lol.

    In the Ramsey house, I think, perhaps, Patsy confronted an awake JBR with something like, "Ok. You didn't wear the red shirt to the Whites like I suggested, so you are going to wear it on this trip. Since you are awake anyway..."

    Of course, JBR rebelled. Have you ever tried to get a turtle-neck onto a struggling angry child? I have. We have just about given up turtle-necks in my house, lol. (I think they are ugly anyway.)

    My thoughts lead me to believe that Patsy and JB were fighting over the turtle neck. The turtle-neck was almost on JBR. However, Patsy had managed to just get it over her head. So, it was just around her neck.

    I think Patsy twisted the garment and pulled, trying to keep the child in place, while JB struggled to remove it. I think Patsy yanked too hard and JB flung herself, or Patsy flung the child against the bathtub or sink.

    I think the struggle with the shirt around the neck resulted in the 'gentle strangulation.' Imagine 'shaken baby syndrome' with the adult who is doing the shaking having a hold on the child by way of a shirt around the neck. That is what I see.

    The whole scene took place in about 30 seconds and JB appeared to be dead. That is when the holding took place, in my opinion.*

    Later, Patsy removed the red shirt and discarded it in the sink and replaced the white shirt.

    I also checked with my kid about the notion that Patsy pulled the long underwear on JB while she was asleep. My daughter laughed and said, "No way! She would have woken up!" I agree.

    My daughter is 49 inches and 49 pounds, roughly the same size as JBR. We have had many nights when daddy carries a sleeping wolfkid into the house from the car. Believe me, it is difficult to get her shoes off of her, let alone her jacket (she has sometimes even slept in the jacket), no matter how tired she is. I would never attempt to change her pants. That notion is just absurd to me.

    I don't think the JBR case has much to do with a bed wetting incident, as Thomas believes. With all due respect to Steve Thomas, I think the Ramseys talk far too much about the 'dry sheets' for this to be the true scenario. Plus, LE took the sheets as evidence, so I don't think the Ramseys would make such a claim if the sheets were wet.

    *the 'holding' line has to do with my 'ring theory'

    And yes, Patsy does break down when they mention the red turtleneck. Didn't she break into tears when LE questioned her about the bathroom picture showing this red shirt in the sink??? Now, either she just really doen't like turtlenecks, or there is much more to the story than we know...
  7. purr

    purr Active Member

    i had the very same idea.......

    about the struggle with the red turtleneck
    being the starting point of the whole murder.

    i too have wrestled a turtleneck off
    of children (being a nanny and an aunt of many nieces).

    i didnt have the idea that patsy started strangling
    jonbenet with it.....but that is a good theory.

    i always just thought that patsy accidentally
    threw her out or into that shirt and into
    the sink or tub........

    for me this is the most logical way
    since a murder weapon had not been found.

    good sleuthing....and welcome to the forum

    Attached Files:

  8. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Hi Purr!! Thanx for the welcome :):) I am glad to be here.

    I think the staged strangulation was a cover-up for the accidental strangulation. Whatever struggle initiated the strangulation left visible marks that had to be explained.

    I don't think Patsy intentionally strangled her child. She was, for all practical purposes, a loving mom. I also don't see John or Burke involved in the crime or the cover-up.

    I just think Patsy snapped. In the heat of the moment, she didn't know what she was doing.

    Patsy is so sensitive about the red turtleneck specifically (not about the soiled bed sheets or about the pull-ups...) that it had to have something to do with the crime.

    Those shirts are pretty darned tight around the neck anyway. If you add an angry adult and a struggling child who are both pulling the shirt in different directions, then you have a potential for injury.

    Thanks again Purr :D
  9. purr

    purr Active Member

    sure thing wolfmarsgirl

    that is quite a name their girl!

    anyway, we love hearing from
    new forum members.

    sometimes we throw around the same
    theories and get tired of listening to

    so any new insight is welcome.

    oh, by the way, i was curious about
    your name so i looked up wolfmar on google.

    whew, you have a gorgeous boyfriend
    and you are one hot mama!

  10. Elle

    Elle Member

    It's worth thinking about WMG

    It's something different to think about WMG. When I have come across clothes that are too tight to go over my grandchildren's heads, I don't use them. The children complain about these themselves. I can't understand manufacturers not including elastic thread to make the neck expand. So stupid. Mothers should refuse to buy them when they don't stretch.

    I do feel there was a struggle of some sort between Patsy and JonBenét, and keeping Nedra Paugh's statement in my head, that JonBenét would scream bloody murder if hauled out of her bed, this little girl could have been hauled out of bed and dragged and thrown every which way in her own bathroom, striking her head against the tub or the toilet, and the rest is history, and I sincerely hope this crime can still be solved soon.
  11. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Re: sure thing wolfmarsgirl

    Hi Purr!

    I'll have to run the search & see what it comes up with, lol.

    Actually, my name has to do with a bumber sticker hubby had in college. It originally said "Wolf Man." To this day, I can't figure out why he had 'Wolf Man' on his car, but that is beside the point, lol :D

    Anyway, the 'n' got rubbed off, so that it looked like an 'r.' All the guys started teasing him about the name 'Wolf Mar.' He and my brother used the title as a gag code name for a while :)

    So, if hubby is 'Wolf Mar,' then I am 'Wolf Mar's Girl.' The first forum I joined didn't allow me to put spaces in my 'hat,' so I ran it into one word...

    So that's me - the long and short of it...
  12. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Re: It's worth thinking about WMG

    Yes, little girls (especially the spoiled ones, lol) do tend to pitch fits when they are asked to do something that they would really rather not do...Not that I have had any experiences with that type of child, lol...It is just something I have heard ;)

    I don't know for sure what happened that night, but I am pretty sure Patsy was the cause of the accident.

    The turtleneck was such a sore spot for Patsy, that I thought there must be something there...

    Yeah, I hate those things too. We don't buy them anymore. If my kid needs extra warmth around the neck, she wears one of those fleece sweat-shirts that zip up to the neck, so there is no problem with tightness.

    It does make me wonder what Patsy had planned for JBR to wear out-of-town on the 26th??? The turtleneck seems logical, since she didn't wear it on the 25th.

    And, remember, Patsy mistakenly stated that JBR was wearing the red turtleneck when she went to bed...It might have been a mistaken slip up...But, why??

    And, there is no way anyone can convince me that JBR was dressed in her long johns by Patsy while she was asleep. It just couldn't happen...

    As my kid would say, "Duh!"
  13. Elle

    Elle Member

    I'm glad I brought up three sons, WMG. No offence. I do have granddaughters, but this is different from bringing them up. I hand them back. I have a good range from very young to teenagers, and from what I've seen so far, I do think girls are more difficult to bring up than boys. I have grandsons too.

    I understand what you're saying here WMG, and you could be right. It could have brought back what actually happened that night (?).
  14. Wolfmarsgirl

    Wolfmarsgirl Member

    Oh, believe me, I have heard that boys are much easier than girls. I tend to agree with what I've heard, lol!

    I think girls are more difficult for moms than boys are. I don't know if it makes much difference to the dads...Although, I do know that my hubby's head spins a bit when he is trapped in a conversation with wolfkid and me :eek:, so maybe a boy would have been easier for him. He just can't seem to find a moment of silence to jump in, lol!

    My mom has three granddaughters now and two of them (mine and my brother's littlest) are kindergarteners! You can just imagine how rotten our girls are when they come back from nana & papa's house!
  15. questfortrue

    questfortrue Member

    In the interest of adding more updated info to FFJ’s body of knowledge, here is another chapter of my arrangement of chairs on the Titanic deck. :D

    Recently, in looking for some discussion of JonBenét’s clothing, I came across a thread from back in 2004. I realized how many more pieces of the puzzle have come into focus for those of us who have followed the case in the past few years. The best examples of additional pieces arrived in 2016, during the blitz of programming for the 20th anniversary of the case. Specifically I’m referring to photos of the clothing which LE questioned Patsy about. There was some confusion pertaining to the red clothing, and Moab provided interpretation. “I'll take the other side and say I think they were two different items. I think the red turtleneck was balled up on the counter in JBR's bathroom and whatever this jumpsuit thing is would have been outside of JBR's room where the washer/dryer was, and the sink.” She’s correct.

    Many of us were bothered by Patsy’s explanation of stopping in the laundry area on the second floor to address stains on JonBenét’s costume. It was worn at the Southwest Mall AmeriKids performance on December 22. This was the day before the R’s Christmas party. I don’t know if Patsy went to this performance or asked John to take her. In the footage captured from Inside Edition JonBenét is seen wearing the costume Patsy referenced as her little red jumpsuit. In the background above where JonBenét is dancing one can see JR with her pink backpack at his feet. (A shot of the pink backpack also appeared in the video from RadarOnline.) As the first photo below will show, the costume was sleeveless. However, at the Mall performance JonBenét had worn a long sleeve red top over it. Strictly speculation, but it’s possible that she had worn the red turtleneck over it for warmth. Photos of JonBenet Ramsey

    So here are the photos and take your best guesses - if Patsy was telling the truth about stopping to fuss with some spots on JonBenét’s costume, why would she do this. If she was telling the truth, and she knew her daughter was deceased, it’s not as though JonBenét would wear the costume again. BTW, LE may have collected the jumpsuit. There was an item listed vaguely as Velvet turtleneck on the warrant.

    The red jumpsuit and JonBenét’s mall performance –

    redjumpsuit.JPG lastdanceofjb2binkbckpack.jpg

    Ironing board with jumpsuit –


    The red turtleneck on bathroom sink -

    cottonstar and Niner like this.
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