Patsy Ramsey

Discussion in 'Justice for JonBenet Discussion - Public Forum' started by rashomon, Feb 3, 2007.

  1. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    The key question in the JBR case for me is "Who was Patsy Ramsey"?

    One major difficulty is that, since the Ramseys have successfully evaded justice, no professional psychological evaluation has ever been done on them.
    So when trying to analyze her, we'll largely have to rely on our own psychological knowledge, our own experience.
    At an autopsy, the first step is always to view the body from the outside, and I'll try to approach the person Patsy that way too as a first step:

    Patsy "seen from the outside" seems to have been a woman upon whom the Goddess Fortuna had showered a cornucopia of precious gifts:
    Not only was Patsy beautiful, she was also intelligent and had a university degree. She did not come from a broken home, but from a close-knit middle class family.
    She struck it rich in her marriage, her doting and generous multimilionaire husband denying her nothing, enabling her to indulge in lavish decorating sprees in her splendid homes.
    She had two healthy, beautiful and intelligent children, a boy and a girl.
    What more could Patsy Ramsey wish for in her life ? She "had it all", so to speak.
    And even when a dark shadow - cancer - showed up in her paradise, Patsy again was among the fortunate ones in the end. For she could pay for the best medical treatment available, and finallly beat ovarian cancer, one of the most aggressive and rapidly fatal cancers which exist. Again she was lucky.

    But what lay behind that glamorous surface? What do we really know about this woman's inner life?
    The picture which poster Cookie (who is a great photographer) put in the "New Globe is out" thread (#138 post) is very interesting:

    Cookie is actually Judith Phillips, a friend of Patsy's whose comments on the family are also in Schiller's book PMPT.
    She seems to have known Patsy pretty well.
    That picture sent chills down my spine. Nedra looks like a 'battleax' type of woman and I ask myself what kind of mother she was to her daughters. Probably not the warm and giving type, more a very demanding type.
    It is also immensely interesting what Judith Phillips said about Patsy's mother Nedra: (PMPT, pb., p. 249):

    "Well, Judith, we're just getting Jon Benet into a few pageants ."
    "Why would you do something like that?"
    "You know, she's not too young to get started."
    "And what if JonBenet isn't willing" I asked. "What if she says, I'm not going to do it? How would you respond to that"
    "Oh Judith, we would never consider her saying no. We would tell JonBenet, "You must do it. You will be Miss Pageant."

    It was sort of eerie. A litte scary. The inevitability of it - from grandmother to mother and now to daughter.

    Eerie indeed. How many "choices" did a mother like Nedra leave to her daughter Patsy? What could Patsy decide for herself?
    What seems to be completely missing in Patsy's life was a 'phase of rebellion' which so many young people go through. Where they question their parents' values, where they try to find out who they are and what they really want for themselves, but in Patsy's case, nothing of the kind happened.
    Patsy seems to have wanted what Nedra wanted, and took over right where Nedra left off: Patsy was a Miss West Virginia, and JonBenet was destined to climb the next step: Miss America.
    Was Patsy Ramsey a dutiful daughter almost "too good to be true"? Was she so trained and conditioned to be constantly put on display that in the process she lost contact to her inner self?
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2007
  2. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    As an exercise in the study of the psyche, I disregard any contribution to this crime from an intruder, John Ramsey and Burke Rasmey. This leaves only Patsy as the author of the note and the perpetrator of what was done to JonBenet. The combination of the content of the note and the condition of the body leads me to conclude the crime was not started with an accident as there is too much form and pattern.

    Patsy's image was one of upstandingness and outstandingness. She had quite the image of "light". As the exercise described above does not fit with her known persona, I conclude Patsy had quite a dark side as well. One that was so distant from her as to be out of her control with it's own autonomy as in the manner of DID.

    Attached Files:

  3. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat


    Originally Posted by Paradox
    "Patsy appears to be the child in this picture. JonBenet has the more subdued, sober expression. Nedra looks defensive, proprietary, she owns the others. JonBenet is dutiful. This picture seems to me to say who is in control and who is controlled. Patsy is content with being bypassed in favor of the children. Having been the object of narcissistic intrusions by her mother, she is glad to offer up her children as a deflection.

    We are free to write the script of the drama in the picture. This is what I see. There is no evidence of course, but this is what comes to mind." - Paradox

    Rashomon - "What I see in the picture:

    JonBenet is doing her job as a child model accustomed to be photographed very often (as opposed to her brother, whom they probably had to persuade to do this picture), Nedra is clearly a domineering type who is in control, Patsy's facial expression is unhappy and her body language is that of a stiff and lifeless puppet."
  4. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    "What seems to be completely missing in Patsy's life was a 'phase of rebellion' which so many young people go through. Where they question their parents' values, where they try to find out who they are and what they really want for themselves, but in Patsy's case, nothing of the kind happened."

    This is exactley what The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie is about. And this is why I think Patsy identified with it. She never could live out her rebellion and self discovery in real life, so she did it vicariously in literature and private dreams.
  5. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    "Was Patsy Ramsey a dutiful daughter almost "too good to be true"? Was she so trained and conditioned to be constantly put on display that in the process she lost contact to her inner self?"

    Yes, exactly. She tried to be someone else's idea of who she should be. The "good" daughter was good if and only if she left herself behind.

    Welcome to the world of borderline personality disorder.
  6. heymom

    heymom Member

    Side question - Did Cookie say she had chosen the pose for this photo, or did she let the Ramseys do what came "naturally?" In the other thread she mentions going for the American Gothic look, so I assume she told them what to do, or gave them some idea of what she wanted. But if they chose to pose like this all on their own, it tells us much more about their inner structure, I think.

    It is not a pose I would choose if asked to be in a "Motherhood" book.
  7. heymom

    heymom Member

    And Paradox...

    Patsy does look as if she has left the premesis but left the lights on...Gone To Texas as I sometimes day...

    The others are looking at the camera. She is removed from the situation, as in a robot. Not making eye contact at all.
  8. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    Remember the Miss America judge described her as "a little automaton."
  9. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    The right side of the face shows the social side of the personality. The left shows the analytical side of the mind. Try blocking off each side of the faces and read the difference in expressions. Nedra's right side is disturbing.
  10. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    In several of Patsy's photos I see the "wandering eye" condition, where the less dominant eye seems to be directed away from the direction of the face and the focus of the dominant eye. In this photo the left eye seems directed at the camera while the right is looking over it.
  11. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    This picture can be used like a Rorschach test. The amplified material from the viewer is subjective. But it's comments like these from other people that back up the interpretation of this picture that Patsy does betray/portray her robot nature.
  12. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    Cookie asked them to stand like soldiers, which helps explain the pose.
  13. koldkase

    koldkase FFJ Senior Member

    OK, this may not be following y'alls discussion exactly, but I'm going to stick it here anyway because I watched the beginning of the movie Ransom with Mel Gibson and now, all these years later, I can see so much that follows this movie it's STUNNING.

    Remember, as John Andrew pointed out to Steve Thomas, I think it was, Ransom was playing in Boulder right before Christmas '96.

    So just for discussion, I'm going to lay out my thoughts as I watched, imagining what Patsy would have been thinking in a theater, watching this, with her own child only days away from being "kidnapped," with the similarities between the Ramseys and the Ransom family she might have noticed or linking consciously or subconsciously.

    I had completely forgotten that the Ransom family whose child is kidnapped was that of a RICH AIRLINER COMPANY MOGUL. The movie begins with the hugely successful father character talking about when he learned to fly a plane in the service. Of course, that made me think of John Ramsey being a pilot, though not in the service, but his father was.

    As I watched the family being portrayed for expository purposes, the kidnappers were also being shown preparing the "hideout" where they would hold the child. There on the end of an iron bedframe dangled HANDCUFFS...loose, from cuff to cuff about the distance of the cord on JonBenet's wrists.

    I kept looking at the handsome Mel and the beautiful "wife" actor, wondering, would Patsy be projecting herself into this picture, drawing parallels? Remember, Patsy once was a state and national award winning high school competitive actor for several years. She won a talent scholarship for her writing and acting skills in the Miss Amercia Pageant, too.

    The wife/mother is doing volunteer work when the child is kidnapped in the park, you may remember. She's largely running a contest for school children, some kind of science/flight competition. That reminds me of Patsy's involvement in various volunteer activities, lots with school, as well.

    Oh, didn't John tell LE he saw a WHITE VAN nearby that morning? The vehicle used to conceal the child/victim in the movie--white van.

    Then there's the ransom note. I know this has been said a thousand times and more, but it really is too close not to be linked to the undisputed fake ransom note in the Ramsey case. Let me find a transcript online and you'll see.

    This is as far as I got before real life stopped me, but I may have to rent a copy of this movie and break it down more. I remember that long ago I was watching it and noticed about mid-way through the movie, the wife gets nauseated when she thinks she's heard her son being shot on the phone. She vomits, etc. Remember John's "intended to be ironic" words: (approx.) "Patsy faked throwing up that morning?"

    Anyone else who wants to add, feel free. If it's just done to death, though, I understand. I just had these thoughts and then when I heard the phone call from the movie kidnappers, now that I know so much about the Ramsey one, I couldn't believe how similar they were. Makes me think Patsy wrote hers so long to try to cover-up the fact that she took so much from the movie. Patsy's early high school and pageant training in acting/speech competition may have enabled her to remember the dialogue. It happens to be a talent that two generations in my family seem to have inheritied: children can watch a movie once, and then act the scenes out for you, not only word for word, but in character and voice, as well. (I'm not making this up; I've sat through this pantomime routine hundreds of times through the decades; I'm talking, down to the SOUND EFFECTS. Uncanny.) Did Patsy have this skill? Seems from her excellent record in high school and at pageants, she did.
  14. rashomon

    rashomon Member

    Thanks for the info, Cranberry.
    Fascinating 'result', for it becomes quite clear who was in charge here: Nedra as the 'commanding officer'.
    JonBenet reminds me somewhat of John F. Kennedy Jr. saluting at his father's funeral ceremony. A child used to being photographed very often, imitating a pose without understanding its meaning.

    Patsy's facial expression conveys unhappiness and her body language is that of a stiff and lifeless puppet.
    Clearly a person who (unlike her mother) felt uncomfortable standing like a soldier.
  15. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    There is an old thread on page 32 or 33 'CD on eBay' where Cookie writes about taking this photo. Nedra looks like the General, in command of the troops. I think it is interesting that the mothers aren't close to their daughters, in this motherhood photo.
  16. heymom

    heymom Member

    Yes, that is very interesting. You would think that they would stand in a line, Nedra, Patsy, JonBenet, then Burke, or maybe Nedra, Patsy, Burke, JonBenet.

    And I think Patsy looks like someone who has been yelled at a lot - she has "checked out" mentally and is somewhere else in her mind. Maybe dissociating, maybe just not listening. I envision her having to stand just about that way while she was given instructions or berated.
  17. Cranberry

    Cranberry Member

    Private Patsy
  18. Paradox

    Paradox Banned for Stupidity by RiverRat

    General Nedra.
  19. heymom

    heymom Member

    I think I found the exact post where Cookie describes this photo session. Wonderful thread, thanks for sending me there!
  20. Cleej2

    Cleej2 Member

    This is very interesting to say the least Koldcase. Especially where JR sees a white van through the bedroom window. (I believe it was the bedroom window).

    I can't wait for more of a report from you. I believe I will have to watch that movie again myself. It has been so long ago.

    I think that there is somewhere in that movie that it says that the body was wiped down. I am not sure about this.

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